Can't get my chisels or plane irons square with the se-76 jig

[10Fingers]

Not sure what I'm doing wrong but I cannot get my chisels or plane irons straight when using the SE-76 on my T-4 machine.

I have the older Supergrind 2000 that I was using and it had the same issue and I thought it was the universal support arm that may have been bent or something so I bought a T-4 machine to remedy the problem...... wrong. I have the exact same problem. I upgraded the Square Edge jig to a newer one thinking that would fix it but again..... no.

I used the trueing tool to make sure the stone is square to the sides and sharpened two chisels and both are not even close to being square as the photos show. Two machines and two jigs and watching the videos numerous times would suggest that I"m missing something and it couldn't be the tools.

Any ideas what I'm not doing correctly?

Kevin

[Ken S]

Kevin,

You are asking one of the favorite forum questions. Actually, you are off to a very good start. Having your grinding wheel properly trued is always the best way to begin. You are using a combination square, a very good idea.

I think you are waiting too long before checking and correcting course. Using a marker on the bevel may help. Looking at your bevel with the square, note which is the high side. (It may help to add a little tick mark with a marker, possibly with a second color.) Grind for just a very few seconds. Your new grinding should only be on the high end of your bevel. If not, loosen your jig tightening screw ever so slightly and gently tap the far end of the chisel or plane blade toward the high side. Retighten and grind some more. Once you are grinding square, complete your sharpening.

Do not be in a hurry. With practice, this will go more quickly. Plus, you will have very little corrective grinding.

Jeff Farris used to recommend varying the finger pressure to correct for squareness. I think that is an excellent final technique for after aligning the tool as close as possible.

Ken

[10Fingers]

Thanks for the reply Ken.
Well.... I had no idea I had to "course correct" when using that jig. It doesn't seem to be clear in any of the how-to videos that it's an important process. I thought you just had to register the side of the chisel to the edge of the jig and it would automatically square it up.

Once it is square, I assume it is as easy as using the side of the jig after that?

I guess I have some practicing to do :-)

Thanks for the info Ken.... cheers

Kevin

[John_B]

Ken, are most chisels not square new and out of the box? I have done a few but never seen them this far off.

[micha]

Interesting, I didn't even know there is a SE-76. It's the predecessor of the SE-77, right?
The main difference seem to be the two adjustment screws. I found that using these is very helpful when you have to correct an angle or a skewed bevel.

[RichColvin]

Micha,

The SE-76 replaced the SVH-60 straight edge jig.  Unlike the SE-77, you cannot adjust the camber with the other two. 

But, I've found that the SVH-60 accommodates shorter chisels than the SE-76 or SE-77.  This is because the SVH-60 doesn't raise the chisel as high above the universal bar. So it is easier to get a smaller bevel angle on tools where the projection is short.

Given the choice, I'd rather use the SE-76 or SE-77.  But it's good to keep the SVH-60 around in case you have an older, shorter chisel.

Good luck,
Rich

[Ken S]

Very good question, John. I would say it depends.... I would expect premium chisels like Lie-Nielsen, Veritas, or Blue Spruce to be excellent right out of the box. Frankly, I would be reluctant to stray too far from these.

I think part of the problem is the desire to have a "compleat" set of chisels. I think we would be better off with a few well chosen chisel sizes of superior quality than a full set with rarely used sizes.

Ken

[micha]

Micha,

The SE-76 replaced the SVH-60 straight edge jig.  Unlike the SE-77, you cannot adjust the camber with the other two. 

Thanks, Rich. I wasn't aware of an SVH-60, either.   But looking at the picture above I see the advantage for short chisels.

I just wanted to point out that the adjustment knobs on SE-77 are not necessarily for allowing some camber, but also allow for easy and very precise correction of the work angle.

Micha

[Ken S]

Good observation, Micha. Tormek markets the squareness adjustment for chisels more than plane blade camber. Personally, as a plane user, I love the controlled camber feature. I think use of blade camber is more of a sophisticated technique, and would appeal to fewer users. The squareness adjustment is nice, too.

Ken

[RobinW]

Good morning 10 Fingers

You are not alone getting up this learning curve; there's plenty previous advice on this forum about getting chisels or plane blades square.

I would suggest that you stay with the bevel edge chill and use that one solely until to get the square process understood - ie there's tweaks required which are to overcome the live situation you are in. Don't keep changing chisels as you are starting afresh. One of your photos, the non-bevel chisel, is like one of mine, and the blade as some minor twist and bend in the other plane that no matter what I try it will never be square at the sharpened end.

When mounting the bevel chisel in the SE-76, with say a 45 - 50mm projection, turn the chisel so that you are looking at the end about to be sharpened. Look up the blade of the chisel, ensure that the moving surface of the Se-76 is clamped - not too tight, only enough to hold the blade in place - and that the surface of the moving part of the SE-76 is flush across the chisel. If it clamps to the chisel at an angle, it will introduce a small annoying twist.

There are angular issues, in two planes, involved in trying to chisels square at the end - see the link below where I have tried to explain this in drawing form.

https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3992.0

The main thing I would suggest you do initially, is ignore your measuring square and use a marker pen and eye ball, and make small amounts of grinding with very frequent visual inspection, and with subtle small adjustments to finger pressure, mounting of blade in the SE-76, until you understand how to correct for off-square grinding.

[Ken S]

Good thoughts, Robin.

Ken

[chaywesley]

What a coincidence... I just came here to ask for advice on where to buy a SE-76, because my T-8 came with the SE-77, and I was hoping the SE76 would make for less muss and fuss to get my chisels square. Don't get me wrong, I like the SE-77 for cambering plane irons, etc, but it seems like I spend an inordinate amount of time fussing with the adjustment screws on the SE-77 the grind my chisels square. Of course the Se-76 is discontinued, so I'm having a hard time finding one, even on ebay.

But, based in this discussion,  maybe the SE-76 isn't quite the "automatically square" time saver I was hoping for.

[RichColvin]

Chay,

Consider getting an SVH-60.  May be on eBay.  Really useful for shorter tools.

Kind regards,
Rich

[Ken S]

Looking at the four photos Kevin posted, the second photo appears to show both square edge jigs. The one on top is the SVH-60. Notice that it holds chisels using the top surface of the jig. The design does allow sharpening of shorter chisels, as Rich correctly notes. The top holding design also allows holding of very thick traditional "pig sticker" mortise chisels. Today these are rarely used but useful tools. Most modern mortise chisels are lighter sash mortise chisels, which fit is the SE-76 and SE-77 jigs.

Kevin's fourth photo shows an out of square chisel. If the bevel is blackened, the initial corrected grinding pattern should show only grinding at the high end of the bevel. If correctly set, further grinding will spread across the entire bevel, eventually leaving the bevel square.

Jeff Farris used to talk about using "English", varying finger pressure from side to side for minor correction. With diligent practice, your edges will soon be consistently square. Patience and persistence will be rewarded.

Keep posting

Ken

[chaywesley]

So now you've got me thinking about how to use the SE-77 for non-cambered, square edges like chisels.  My approach has been to use the jig with the two adjustment knobs tightened firm, so it won't allow any angular deviation.  The challenge with this technique is the initial setting of the two knobs... the index mark on the jig isn't nearly fine enough (for me) to hit dead square on first (or second, or third) try.

Now you've got me thinking that another approach might be to leave the adjustment knobs a touch loose to allow for some play, and just grind for square based on feel / muscle memory.

Does that make sense? How to you guys do it?