T8 - Newbie questions about grading stone

[Thymen]

I purchased a T8 a few days ago, to sharpen my woodworking chisels and plane blades.

I watched tons of videos about the Tormek systems, finally decided I wanted one. Bought one at my favorite brick-and-mortar shop. Setting up was easy, and regrinding the bevel my first chisel took only a minute or so, since the stone was new and quite rough. Grading to finer grit with the grading stone worked fine, and the sharpening grooves were much finer after the second sharpening. Polishing with the leather wheel took much longer, as I expected all the sharpening marks to disappear (which they don't, as they do with an 8000 grit Japanese water stone) ....

Chisel was nice and sharp with a new primary bevel. So...... next one! But before that I wanted to grade the wheel back to coarse. Watched several videos about that with the grading stone, but I did not get the wheel back to the same coarseness as before. Now I know that the wheel may be supplied as 'extra course', as it will be after trueing, but it remained much too fine to sharpen quickly even after several tries. Only after pushing really hard for a minute or so made a significant difference.

So if I have to sharpen several chisels and/or plane blades and have to go through multiple grading sessions.... man, then my shoulder is acting up from the effort. Don't want to do that. And sharpening everything coarse first, change to finer grade and re-sharpen everything is a lot of work setting things up every time (with aid of Sharpy marker, ofcourse).

So what I do now is sharpen at grade course, and then manually polish a secondary bevel (micro-bevel) / deburr on my 8000 grit Japanese water stone. Five or six strokes will do. Then some stropping on a leather strop and chisels are perfectly sharp, plane blades leave a butter-smooth finish. This is much faster then going the grading-to-fine and leather wheel stropping on the Tormek.

But..somehow I feel as if I am doing something wrong, as if I am only using a small portion of what I paid for. Leaving the wheel at the finer grade means touching up a bevel takes ages, that's not an  option. Trueing the wheel between chisels not an option either. Re-grading  as I tried it, way to much effort.

Am I missing something? Is there a specific trick when changing the grade? I watched many Youtube videos, they are all doing it the same way more or less, am at a loss here.

[bisonbladesharpening]

I sympathize with you Thymen.  I have had my T-8 for over two years now and
am on my second sg-250.  I find that the grading stone never refreshes the wheel to
anywhere close to the 220 and I find that I had to redress the wheel with the tt-50
after grading to the fine grit.  I have pretty much abandoned the grading stone and redress
and true the wheel as necessary.  I sharpen mainly production cutlery and luckily don't usually need a
mirror edge. I use paper wheels to clean the edge.  I am sure that part of the problem is user error, but same as you i have watched all of the instructional videos
and cannot get good results.  I am sure we will get some great feedback on the forum.
Best Wishes
Tim

[Ken S]

Advancing an idea originally by Wootz, last year I gave eighteen 1000 grit inexpensive diamond plates to forum members. My own very limited experience with one indicates that it may be a good alternative to the fine side of the stone grader.

Add me to the list of users who are not excited with the coarse side of the stone grader.

Unfortunately, my shop time is quite limited. I started "Phase II" of my plan, which is using a set of three different grit DMT credit card size diamond files. Each of the three is glued onto a piece of steel or aluminum 1/8" thick x 2" wide x 6" long. (3mm x 50mm x 150mm) This is inserted into the square edge jig like a plane blade. This set up is designed to assist in keeping the grinding wheel square. At this point, I don't know if the coarse diamond file will grade the grinding wheel any more coarse than the stone grader. I am also hoping the middle coarseness will produce a repeatable "600" grit middle coarseness for knives.

A quick, easy and inexpensive test of using a coarse diamond file would be to use a diamond paddle file against the grinding wheel. Your fingers will tell the tale. If my credit card diamond files do not work, I will at least have an inexpensive set of large diamond paddle files.

Ken

[Thymen]

Thanks for the replies.

I have looked at several pages on this forum now, and it seems I am not alone in finding the grading process somewhat troublesome. My main gripe is the force and time it takes to roughen the wheel. Getting older, and shoulder starts acting up when I have to do that.

Prior to the Tormek I used a Veritas honing guide to sharpen my bench chisels and plane blades. I have several diamond plates, and Japanese water stones. But getting a consistent primary bevel is a lot of work with this guide, as even a minute difference in setting up shows on the bevel. I admit to being too critical about this, I just don't like it. So I spent a lot of time sharpening. Accumulating diamond plates and water stones, and guide with accessories  made me realize I was spending the same amount of money as I would on a Tormek, and still it was a lot of effort. Hence the Tormek.

I thought about the T4 at first, but adding the not-included accessories the T4 is almost the cost of the T8, so I decided on a T8.

Don't get me wrong here, making remarks about the grading does not mean I am sorry for purchasing the Tormek, on the contrary! I am just in the process of finding out what works best for me personally!

I have a good Japanese water stone. And a leather strop with honing compound. I once watched David Charlesworth (on YouTube), the famous woodworker and teacher, creating a razor sharp bevel on a chisel with just three strokes on a very fine grit water stone, and I wondered how he did that. Well, it's because he is cheating a little. The person who sold me the Tormek also told me that: David uses a Tormek to prepare all his chisels, to give it a good primary bevel first. And he finishes with a manually added secondary bevel on a water stone....

So, for now, I do the same. I leave the wheel course, and grind the primary bevel on the Tormek. Then I take the chisel out of the jig, and put it on the water stone. No honing guide used. The somewhat hollow primary bevel is excellent for finding the correct angle on the stone. I then lift a hair, swipe a few times to create a super smooth secondary bevel. Then using David's 'Ruler Trick' I create a minute, shallow back bevel. Also just a few swipes. And finally, a dozen swipes on a strop. My chisels have never been sharper, my planes leave a super-smooth finish on the wood.

Doing it this way minimizes time on the Tormek, and creating a secondary bevel is less then a minute. And way, way less effort!

Before, after creating a decent (flat) primary bevel on diamond stones with the Veritas honing guide, I would maintain the chisels without aide. But bevel angle and squareness were running out rather quickly, I don't do it enough to create sufficient muscle memory.

Anyway. There is enough of the wheel and stone grader left for experimenting, who knows how I will do it in the future...

David Charlesworth sharpening a chisel; don't get fooled by the honing guide! Look at the far right at the start of the video, you'll see his Tormek! (video in link here starts half way)
https://youtu.be/un-DVvXnCeA?t=80

The Ruler Trick:
https://youtu.be/nykVPKbUGTo?t=341

[Thymen]

not course, but coarse, of course... 

[Ken S]

Thyman

A few thoughts: You can relieve the stress on your shoulders in several ways. You can rest your wrists on the support bar when using your support bar. This not only reduces the downward force on your shoulders, it also assists in keeping your grinding wheel flatter.

You can make up a simple, inexpensive "stone grader" using a credit card diamond file. I described this in another post this. I suggest a set of three grits. This uses your square edge jig and less effort.

You can Make your jig set up consistent. Using the Anglemaster and/or black marker for every chisel is fine, if you happen to enjoy the routine of setting up. However, it is not very efficient for bevel consistency or time use. My kenjig concept for setting up knives originated with setting up my chisels.
If you keep both the Distance between grinding wheel and the support bar AND the Projection of the blade from the support constant, the grinding angle will remain constant. I did this by using the
TTS-100 settng tool for chisels and plane blades instead of turning tools. I set the Distance using the closer hole in the setting tool and initially setting the Projection with the Anglemaster. (25° setting)
I placed a piece of blank white label maker tape in one of the TTS-100 slots and marked the chisel's Projection. Ever since that one chisel, I just set the Distance using the TTS-100 hole and Line up the Projection with my mark on the label maker tape.

Making simple wooden gage blocks and stop blocks is the earlier and very effective Tormek method method of doing this. Although very simple, this technique would allow you to quickly and accurately change chisels and only regrade once.

I would suggest starting out with whatever technique is comfortable for you. The labor intensive part of regular sharpening is grinding the primary bevel. Let your Tormek do the heavy lifting for you. There is nothing wrong with finishing up with your 8000 grit waterstone and strop. Sharp is sharp; don't get frustrated of shoulder pain. I happen to use the three step Tormek method. I would be equally comfortable finishing with my 8000 grit waterstone. I used this and originally oilstones for years. You always have the future option of trying the all Tormek option again. The choice is yours. Use whatever works for you.

Keep sharpening and keep posting.

Ken

[RichColvin]

Thymen,

The approach of making the primary bevel on the Tormek and the secondary bevel on Japanese water stones is one I hear often on the Fine Woodworking podcast, Shop Talk Live.

Kind regards,
Rich

[RichColvin]

Thymen,

One question occurs to me :  what is the steel in your chisel ?

Kind regards,
Rich

[Thymen]

One question occurs to me :  what is the steel in your chisel ?

Not quite sure. The chisels are from Kirchen, and Dictum. I think these are made from an O2-like steel. And my Grandfathers ancient Goldberg chisels, dating 1880 or so..

The planes are two old Stanleys, an old Record and two branded Peaktool. These are basically the same as the Woodriver planes sold in the US. Oh, and and old Record rabbet plane, a Lie Nielsen shoulder plane and block plane, and a Peaktool block plane.

And finally, a Veritas shooting board plane with a PMV11 blade.

[Thymen]

A few thoughts: ...

Ken, I'll keep my eyes and ears open. Many things to learn, and plenty of time. In a couple of weeks I and going to attend a demo by a Tormek representative, guess I'll get some answers there as well.

[Ken S]

One question occurs to me :  what is the steel in your chisel ?

Not quite sure. The chisels are from Kirchen, and Dictum. I think these are made from an O2-like steel. And my Grandfathers ancient Goldberg chisels, dating 1880 or so..

The planes are two old Stanleys, an old Record and two branded Peaktool. These are basically the same as the Woodriver planes sold in the US. Oh, and and old Record rabbet plane, a Lie Nielsen shoulder plane and block plane, and a Peaktool block plane.

And finally, a Veritas shooting board plane with a PMV11 blade.

These O2 type tools are well within the range of the SG wheel. I have been sharpening my old Stanley plane blades and similar chisels with the SG wheel for almost ten years.

Ken

[Ken S]

A few thoughts: ...

Ken, I'll keep my eyes and ears open. Many things to learn, and plenty of time. In a couple of weeks I and going to attend a demo by a Tormek representative, guess I'll get some answers there as well.

I wish I could join you. Tormek demos are rare. I suggest you go early and have questions written down. Hopefully you will have a chance for some good one on one time with the demonstrators.

Enjoy and please share what you learn with the forum.

Ken