question and rant (kinda)

[craigsalisbury]

Morning all,

Still on my learning curve, and have a question and a small rant (everyone loves a toofa ).

So my question is, if you only have say 5 items which you use the tormek for, would there be a downside to doing all touching up with a japanese waterstone?  I mean the 4 chisels, 3 knives and 2 plane blades i sometimes sharpen, all the angles and bevels are set, now they just need a polish now and again to keep them sharp.

Secondly the rant, well not really a rant, just disappointment.

Why is it that tormek only produce a bunch of stuff for the T8?  I mean i know its a professional machine, which also means a T4 is a helluva lot more of an investment for someone like me compared to a business, do i not deserve the nice things?  really just things like the AWT as the T4 has an epic design floor with the water tray causing loads of mess trying to sharpen more than a toothpick. and wheels, I really see no reason they cant produce 200mm wheels for everything instead of restricting peoples options......but then i guess less people would buy the T8?

[Ken S]

Craig,

It is prohibited to use Japanese waterstones with the Tormek.

Just kidding, of course. Why not? I would use whatever feel most comfortable for you. I suspect there are at least several closet waterstone honers on the forum. I think a good compromise is to hone the bevel with the leather honing wheel with the tool  still in the jig and then finish the back with a flat very fine ceramic stone.

I have mixed feelings about your T4 rant (disappointment). I agree that Tormek has seemed to market the T8 more than the T4. This has changed a little with the T4 Bushcraft Edition.

School delivery futy....must dash....be back later

[craigsalisbury]

Ah i was too lazy to look up the model number, I meant the SJ-200 "Japanese waterstone". none of that manual labour

[GKC]

I have an old-fashioned cast iron water grinder that has a nice fine 200mm Japanese waterstone on it.  I got this from my father and have no idea where the waterstone came from--it has nothing to do with Tormek, but it would work nicely on a T4.  Which is to say, if you looked around you might find a non-Tormek waterstone or a CBN wheel (either maybe needing a 12mm bushing) that would work for you.

Gord

[craigsalisbury]

i was actually just going to buy the tormek stone, i ws just thinking If i already done the hard work with the SG, then I could just use the SJ for touching up the edges after that

[Ken S]

Back again.

Did you notice that the handbook included with your T4 is the same handbook packed wuth the T8? Also, that the major improvement of the T8, the precision machined zinc top, was premiered with the T4?

I like the new water trough of the T8. It is easy to clean and requires less fluid than the T7 trough. While the removable ramp is nice for long tools like planer blades and long knives, with your chisels and plane blades, you should have very little, if any, water spillage. I suspect two culprits:
1) Overfilling. Let the motor run for a minute or two initially to let the grinding wheel finish absorbing water. During this period, add water gradually. Don't look at the water line in the trough; look at the water, just a little, flowing over the grinding wheel.

2) (and three) Use a turkey baster to remove most of the water from the tray before removing it. Number three is consider using a rotating base or being very careful when turning the Tormek. These will eliminate a major source of spillage.

I don't happen to have an SJ-200. I have, but rarely use, an SJ-250. The smaller 4000 grit wheel has never gotten high enough on my wish/need list to be purchased. I realize that Tormek does not sell an SB-200 blackstone. This does not bother me. There are plenty of both Tormek and non Tormek options. Tormek makes two very nice diamond wheels which fit the T4, the 325 grit DWC-200 and the 600 grit DWF-200. These are listed as T2 wheels, however, they work completely fine with the T4. A T4 with a DWC-200 is a formidable machine! At present, Tormek only recommends using these wheels dry. I have doubts that careful use, not just leaving the wheels in the trough, would really cause any harm, however, that is my opinion and not supported by Tormek.

Several non Tormek options are  available. The D-Way  steel CBN wheels are plug and play with all Tormek models. They have a one inch bore. D-Way carries nicely made steel machined reducing bushings. Being steel, you must use either Tormek ACC or Honerite Gold anti corrosion compound if you use them wet. They also work dry.

Norton makes 46 and 80 grit 3X grinding wheels which work very well with the T4. They are one inch wide, slightly less than Tormek wheels, but the same width as dry wheels. I cobbled together a bore adaptor using plastic pipe. For coarse grinding, this is quite adequate. I would finish using the Tormek SG.

So, Craig, I believe the T4 has plenty of potential. Incidentally, ignore the "fifty percent duty" nonsense about the motor. That was an overheating problem with the earlier T3. The zinc top corrected that. You will need a rest long before your T4 does.

Keep ranting. I do believe the T4 is a fine, useful machine overlooked by marketing.

another ranter,

Ken

[Ken S]

i was actually just going to buy the tormek stone, i ws just thinking If i already done the hard work with the SG, then I could just use the SJ for touching up the edges after that

I don't want to discourage you from getting an SJ wheel, however, unless you can get a discounted price now, I would suggest waiting until you have perfected your technique with the SG graded coarse and then fine and the leather honing wheel. This degree of sharpness is generally considered more than adequate for woodworking and kitchen knives.

Ken

[GKC]

Craig, on the water spillage point, I manage to splash around plenty of water with my T8, so your experience might not be from any design feature unique to the T4.  My solution was a $15 aluminium pizza tray, round and just wide enough (14") to fit my T8 with the rotating base, without taking up much more bench space than the machine itself.  Catches all the water that I send astray.

Gord

[Ken S]

My first experience with very small water spillage

was during a woodworking show in Hartville, Ohio. Our member, Steve Bottorff, was the first presenter on the scene in the morning. Steve is a longtime sharpening and Tormek expert. He had both a T4 and a T7 running. These both ran all day with varying demonstrations.

They were sitting on a new Sjöbergs workbench with only one layer of protective cardboard. I paid particular sttention to any water spillage throughout the day. No rotating bases were used. For the while day, only a very few drops of water spilled.

Since then, I have been much more careful, and my water spillage has been minimal.

Ken

[craigsalisbury]

wow a lot happened while i was doing the school run

I didnt even think about non tormek wheels, so this opens up a whole world of possibilities, saying that I didn't think about T2 stuff either.   

For the water issue, its probable over filled....to the max line, so ill reduce it and just make sure the wheel licks the surface after its initial soaking.  I nabbed the cats silicone mat to keep water from going all over my MFT (MDF Table) which works perfectly.

Ken, im not bothered about 50% duty, as a hobbyist (and liker of gadgets and shiny things), it doesn't get used a lot but im thinking to use it a lot more keeping my edges nice and sharp, I thought the SJ would be perfect as it does not remove a lot of material but gives a nicely polished finish

Im kinda interested in the very fine diamond stones.....probably because it says diamond I don't think i have much use for a lot of the accessories and wheels, but by god that wont stop me having shiny things

I do love the machine, I couldn't justify the T8 for the limited use i give it.

EDITED for lack of spelling.

[Ken S]

Craig,

I like your thinking. You sound like a Tormek junkie, like me..

You are correct, the SJ is a polishing wheel. With good technique, I believe frequent touch up sharpening is the way to good work.

Where you will really appreciate your T4 over a larger Tormek is when you have to carry it!

Incidentally, when the T4 was first introduced, there was chatter about buying it as a "starter Tormek" and eventually "upgrading" to a larger Tormek. I don't recall reading about anyone actually doing that and I have not seen many T4s for sale used.

Ken

[craigsalisbury]

Ken,

I can't imagine me upgrading, but i have learnt to never say never . i'm also not planning to move it much, and was thinking if i could house train it and cover it in glitter i might be able to disguise it in the kitchen so i don't have to keep going to the shed, but that could be a stretch too far

I don't really see the benefit of the T8 unless you are sharpening as part of a business model, I just cant see me wearing out the SG wheel within a few years with the amount of use i give it.

Oh incidentally, my first post was on the SJ-77 and not getting square grinds, I bought the truing doo dad and a machinists square and now getting perfect results...as well as some nice camber when required

[Ken S]

"The truing doo dad"; I like that! Much of what I have learned about the Tormek has not come easily. I make no claim to natural talent. You apparently learn the same way. Your newfound knowledge will stand by you well.

Being able to create controlled camber with plane blades is a fine skill. It will help you to fit the plane to the task, not just "one size fits all".

Do keep us posted.

Ken

[RichColvin]

Craig,

Depending on what you are doing, consider the paper wheel approach instead of a Japanese water stone.  Steve Bottorff has a great set at :  https://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/paper.htm .  I use these on a 6" grinder for quick honing. 

My take on the two is :

• Japanese water stone:  great for a consistently smooth edge, especially for a micro bevel like on bench plane blade.
• paper wheel :  great for a quick hone (or touch-up on a hone), getting back to work sooner.

That's my opinion anyway.

Kind regards,
Rich

[craigsalisbury]

Thanks Rich,

Thats not a bad suggestion at all, but it does mean buying another machine and importing wheels from the other side of the world which would be a pita....i know right, how could i not already own a grinder.  i did check my local machine shop and alas they dont sell paper wheels either

Ken, I enjoy this machine more, the more i use it and get to know what i can achieve, looking forward to giving the fancy knives another go on it