Diamond wheels vs grind stones

[RichColvin]

I see the value for the DWC wheel immediately, especially for harder metals like HSS, & especially carbide. 

Questions for those wiser than I :   

• What will be your criteria for choosing the DWF & DWE wheels ?
• And how do you see the SJ stone fitting into that ?

And, what do you see as the process you will use ?

• DWC for shaping & really hard metals ?
• DWC -> DWF -> DWE ... -> SJ ?
• DWC -> DWE -> SJ ?

[Ken S]

Rich,

I agree with you about the DWC and harder metals. For planar and jointer blades, it seems the cat's meow, continued consistent cutting without having to stop to use the stone grader or adjust for wheel wear.

I have only used my DWF-200 with knives. I am guessing that the DWF might be very nice for a particular production turner who sharpens frequently to maintain tip top sharpness. For a turner anxious to get back to the lathe, I think the DWC would quickly become his go to wheel. Used with a light touch (as Tormek recommends for all diamond and SB grinding), The DWC leaves a surprisingly fine finish. For a turner like you, who sharpens enough to wear out SG and SB wheels, I think at least one grit of diamond wheel would be a substantial saving over the years.

I can see the DWE being a good choice for a carving school or anyone doing a lot of delicate sharpening.

I see the diamond wheel market with two main groups. The first will be professions who compare the extra cost of a diamond wheel with its added longevity and productivity from not needing to dress the wheel. The second group is the sharpening fans. In the automotive world, these are the guys with a four wheel drive Jeep for that rugged half mile commute across town. In the woodworking world, these are the guys with a Stanley or Lie-Nielsen number one bench plane on display. I describe them lovingly, as I am not too distantly related. An older four cylinder Equinox and century old Stanley planes, but thirteen grinding wheels for my Tormeks.

Sadly, I see a third group, those who are hesitant to learn how to use the truing tool and the stone grader. It took me a while to work up the courage to true my precious grinding wheel. I trust that no student of a good Tormek instructor like Robin Bailey or Wootz leaves class without becoming comfortable with the truing tool.

For those of us who are not comfortable with the truing tool, spend an hour learning how to use it. Dedicate the time to learning. Go through the process slowly and lightly until you are comfortable with it. True lightly and frequently. Make your decision about diamond wheels based on skill rather than doubt.

The old reliable SG has stood by us well for over forty years, and will serve the home shop or small business as well as ever.

Ken

[cbwx34]

I see the value for the DWC wheel immediately, especially for harder metals like HSS, & especially carbide. 

Questions for those wiser than I :   

• What will be your criteria for choosing the DWF & DWE wheels ?
• And how do you see the SJ stone fitting into that ?

And, what do you see as the process you will use ?

• DWC for shaping & really hard metals ?
• DWC -> DWF -> DWE ... -> SJ ?
• DWC -> DWE -> SJ ?

My comment, since you asked about progression is... there is no right answer.    It depends on the finish you desire.  For example, you can go from a DWC to the SJ wheel, leaving what some call a "toothy polished" edge.  If you're seeking a true polish, then you'd want to go thru all the steps... DWC -> DWF -> DWE -> SJ ... for as much scratch removal as possible.

If the DWE leaves as fine a finish as Tormek is claiming, I could see eliminating the SJ wheel altogether, unless you really need a mirror polish for some reason.  My .02. 

[Ken S]

CB,

When I was testing the CBN wheels, I was surprised with the somewhat respectable finish going right from an 80 or 180 grit CBN wheel to the leather honing wheel produced. Quick and dirty, but better than I expected. No match for the traditional three step Tormek method, but not too shabby.

I believe we are witnessing the beginning of some major changes. I am pleased that Tormek is taking the lead.

Ken

[Elden]

I an being lazy and not researching out the answer to my question.

   What has changed in the world of diamond wheel usage enabling them to be used on steel? As some of you know, I have been involved sharpening in the past (circular saw blades, handsaws, chainsaws, etc.). The circular saw blades included carbide tipped blades as well as those of steel. All these were done on high speed dry grinders although more expensive equipment at times utilized flood cooling.

   At the Foley Belsaw school (a 5 day class) I attended, carbide tipped saw blades were covered. This utilized a diamond grinding wheel. We were taught to never contact anything but the carbide tip with the diamond wheel. As I recall, that was due to the fact that the diamond wheel would "load up" when contacting the steel. To remove the "loaded up" steel, the diamond grinding band would be compromised quickly. Other kinds of grinding wheels such as resin, vitrified, or cbn were used for steel.

   I realize that some knives are made of hardened steel, high speed steel is hardened etc, but will the the water bath of the Tormek be sufficient to keep diamond wheel from "loading up"? What has changed in the diamond wheel manufacturing over the years? Will it handle softer steel?

   I am just curious.

[AKMike]

As I understand it, the problem with high speed diamond wheels and steel is the carbon atoms in the diamonds will combine with the alloy atoms in the steel turning the diamonds into something that is not pure carbon, destroying the diamonds. With the Tormek's slow speed, that shouldn't be a problem.

http://www.optigrind.com/page_2538178.html

Mike

[Elden]

   That is interesting, thanks Mike.

   I do know from using DMT diamond stones for hand sharpening, that they do "load up" when sharpening knives. However, a cleaner such as Comet will clean the diamond stones. It seems to me that they have been losing their abrasive effectiveness after quite a bit of use. The coarser stones seem to lose their bite more quickly than the finer stones.

   It will be interesting to hear the reports from the users after long term usage of the diamond wheels.

[Ken S]

Elden and Mike,

You raise an interesting question. All too often we encounter what I call "high speed dry grinder" thinking. I see this all the time in the instructions for other wet grinders and in so many articles. The lawyers and would be writers get their information from the dangers and environment of the high speed grinder. Yes, at 3450 or 1725 RPM, there is real danger of a cracked wheel flying apart or dust and sparks, as well as overheating. Tormek is one of the very few companies which thinks in slow speed wet grinding.

The CBN wheelmakers are also high speed dry grinding thinkers. Their target market is woodturners. In fact, at least one is also a very involved turner. CBN wheels work very well with high speed dry grinders. One vender has voided his warranty if his wheels are used wet. Another had no problem with customers using his wheels wet with a Tormek, however, he made no mention to me of needing to use a rust inhibitor to keep the steel reducing bushing from rusting. I have found that his reducing bushing (same bushing for both size Tormeks) is plug and play with both size Tormeks. It fits both sizes exactly. The wheels cut very well wet or dry. However, if the manufacturer was really thinking in wet grinding mode, he would have made the bushings out of stainless steel and put an anti corrosion finish over the drilled balancing holes (or made the wheels themselves out of stainless). On a practical level, a rust inhibitor solves this problem.

One vendor I contacted was unaware of the size requirements of a T4, although, in fairness, he offered to make up a custom size if I provided dimensions. I do not mean to speak poorly of the vendors. They seem like good and knowledgeable people to me; they are just not Tormek users.

I do not completely understand the pure carbon argument, so I will tentatively accept it on faith. I do know that the two diamond wheels for the T2/4 are very cool cutting. I am quite sure that the Tormek engineers had good reasons for choosing diamond over CBN for use with the Tormek. I also believe that Tormek must reeducate its users to use diamond wheels effectively. The handbook barely mentions the SB and SJ. From what I gather, proper technique is critical to the longevity of the diamond wheels. Tormek technique, as understood by the users, is still in the SG mode where lots of grinding pressure works well.

I essentially ruined a two hundred dollar DMT flattening plate with one bench stone. These plates work nicely with waterstones and India stones. A carborumdum stone ruined it. I do not expect either CBN or diamond wheels to last forever. On a practical level, if a diamond wheel might cost say twice that an SB costs, if the diamond wheel lasts more than twice as long it becomes the better value. I suspect it will be working much longer than that.

As Tormek users, those of us interested in diamond wheels also have a learning curve. We are on the cusp of an amazing technology.

Ken

[cbwx34]

Another Facebook quote from Tormek...

Diamond is the world's hardest material and almost twice as hard as cubic boron nitride (CBN). The diamond's extreme hardness and durability make it the optimal material for sharpening, and it can be used on a Tormek thanks to the low speed on our machines. If you were to use diamond on a bench grinder, the diamonds would be destroyed due to the high speed. Our Diamond Wheels can also be used in water, thanks to our newly developed ACC-150 Anti-Corrosion Concentrate, which is included in the package. You can also sharpen dry, but we always recommend to sharpen with water as it prolongs the life of the wheel and gives a better result. Regarding your question whether it is better for sharpening drill bits and tools there is no "right" answer, it depends what you prefer as a user. If you want to have an easy set up and save time by not having to true your wheel, a Diamond Wheel is perfect. They'll come in three different grades, where the DC-250 Coarse with 360 grit is perfect if you want to rapidly repair or shape a tool, and DF-250 Fine (600 grit) is a good all-round wheel and the DE-250 Extra Fine (1200 grit) gives an extra fine finish. If you want to be able to change the grit size during the sharpening, the Original Grindstone is the best option. Let us know if you have an further questions and we'll gladly answer them / Kind regards, Marie - Marketing Manager

[Ken S]

Interesting post.

I have used my DBS-22, but only a little. I would ask both Tormek and those who regularly sharpen drill bits how often sharpeners use more than one grit when sharpening one bit.

As a home sharpener, only a few bits to sharpen, I have found the SG quite satisfactory. As a Tormek perfectionist, I have used the stone grader and the leather honing wheel. However, if I was sharpening drill bits professionally and/or in large numbers, I would have a diamond wheel as soon as I felt the revenue would justify the extra cost. Based on my tests with the DWC-200 and chisels, I think the results with the correct light touch are very smooth.  Except for a quick touch with the round faced leather honing wheel to remove any burr, I don't think I would go beyond the original wheel if I had twenty bits to sharpen. My initial test was with a dry wheel, I would expect at least a slight improvement using the wheel wet.

Drill bits are often only sharpened when they become deadly dull. My inclination would be to acquire the DWC first. However, I would want to base that decision on more than just my thoughts.

Our member, Grinder of Sweden, uses a T4 and DBS-22 successfully. I would be interested to know his thoughts.

Ken

ps I need to spend more time viditing Tormek's facebook and instagram sites.

[cbwx34]

...
ps I need to spend more time viditing Tormek's facebook and instagram sites.

If you want any info from Tormek... pretty much the route to take. 

[Ken S]

CB,

Unfortunately, I must agree with you again. When facebook arrived, so many people dropped off the planet with email. I already spend too much time online with the forum. I hate to spend any more time with facebook and instagram. However, that seems the way to keep current...grumble, grumble.

Ken

[Stickan]

Hi,
There is many platforms to keep information going all the time.  Tormek has dedicated staff to work on the social media platforms, with the exception of this forum at this time.

This forum should be a Tormek forum, used by users and not with to much influence by Tormek. Also, this Forum is more advanced than the social media where is not allowed to use to many letters or streaming.

When it comes to dedicated questions, please use support@tormek.se as we will be able to set more time to answer an e-mail than to keep track of all questions that are in a topic.
Since I am basically the man to answer Tormek questions here and I am travelling intensively during several periods a year, an email will be answered faster from received by e-mail mail than on the forum.

Sincerely,
Stig

[cbwx34]

CB,

Unfortunately, I must agree with you again. When facebook arrived, so many people dropped off the planet with email. I already spend too much time online with the forum. I hate to spend any more time with facebook and instagram. However, that seems the way to keep current...grumble, grumble.

Ken

The reality is, the social media platforms are also replacing the forums.  (This has nothing to do with Tormek, it has happened elsewhere).  You might have to "rebudget" your time.

[GeoTech]

I for one hope that this forum is the main source for information. I don't subscribe to social media and rely on this forum for everything Tormek.