T4 and acknowledged water spillage issue

[Jan]

CB, I am wondering if putting the grinder housing in a horizontal position and keeping the blade slightly pressed towards the trough could resolve your issue?

Jan

[Ken S]

Jan,
Interesting photo.

CB,
Apparently more testing must be done. With an unusually busy schedule, I sharpened the 2 3/8" plane blade mentioned in the original post. Hopefully Steve will reply. He has used his T4 with many more knives than I have.

Work continues........
Ken

[Macjl]

Ken,
Thank you very much for your kind and comprehensive reply.
I'm going to try your recommended approach tomorrow and test out my new mat at the same time.
Judging by the way you emphasise the minimalist approach to the water level, I certainly have been overdoing it but never past the maximum line.
I complained and I learned!!! Perfect.
I'll let you know how I get on.
Thanks once again.
Mac

[cbwx34]

CB, I am wondering if putting the grinder housing in a horizontal position and keeping the blade slightly pressed towards the trough could resolve your issue?

Jan

Thanks for the reply.

I'm more trying to figure out why I'm not seeing a reduction in water buildup on the knife, and subsequent runoff, based on the water level.  Whether there is basically no water in the trough (but stone saturated), a minimal amount to just touch the stone, or the trough full... when I put a knife against the stone, water "builds up" and then runs off to the side.  I don't even see a significant difference in the amount.

The runoff itself doesn't really bug me... like I figured out this morning (because I was paying attention to this specific issue), I can control it for the most part by how much I tip the blade... probably similar idea to what you're describing.  But adjusting water level itself... just can't figure out why I see no difference.

[Ken S]

Good comments. From my unscientific viewpoint, I don't think the volume in the tray is what matters. I think what is important is the amount of arc of the grinding wheel which is submerged and bringing up water. I like to keep the flowing water to a minimum, so I keep the water level as low as possible.

Keep up the critical thinking.

Ken

[cbwx34]

Good comments. From my unscientific viewpoint, I don't think the volume in the tray is what matters. I think what is important is the amount of arc of the grinding wheel which is submerged and bringing up water. I like to keep the flowing water to a minimum, so I keep the water level as low as possible.

Keep up the critical thinking.

Ken

I'm talking about the same thing here.... so volume in the tray = amount of stone submerged.

[Ken S]

My first T7 came with the original water trough. Being a Tormek junkie, I upgraded both the water trough and the main shaft. Both were working fine; I just wanted to stay state of the art. The Advanced Water Trough came with the trough, slide and two magnetic feet spacers. These two spacers elevated the dry side of the Tormek so that any water went down the outside, away from the housing.My logical self likes this idea. My inner artist felt uncomfortable having the Tormek slightly off level. I quickly adapted.

You could try making a couple shims to elevate your dry side. Something in the three to six millimeter or eighth to quarter inch range should work. Constructing a slide out of plastic should not be difficult, nor would just be placing a wash cloth under the area next to the water trough. Before leaving bush league issues which should not be, I would suggest the old standard Tormek user practice of taping a disk magnet to the outside of your water trough. Be sure to place it where it sill not interfere with mounting the trough. A hardware store disk magnet about three auarter inch or ninteen millimeter diameter and electrical tape work fine. This will catch the steel grindings.

The T4 water trough fits the earlier 200 mm Tormek models. It is generally quite adequate. When I first received my T4, I thought Tormek would eventually redesign the water trough like the larger trough. In defense of Tormek, the T4 is a major redesign beyond the T3. The new zinc top is a substantial improvement in precision and durability. It has served as the prototype for the T8 and T2.

Not factoring in any price difference, I really like the T4. It offers the versatility of the Tormek in a much lighter, more compact package. While this makes it a joy to transport, the more compact size can also be a constraint with some longer tools. I am sure cost factored into the desision not to redesign the water trough. Tormek put the budget into the needed improvement, correcting an overheating issue. That makes the T4 a tool capable of more professional duty for all users. Unfortunately, redesigning the water trough apparently did not make the cut for selling the T4 at the desired price of $399US. Neither did including the SE-77 square edge jig or the TT-50 truing tool. While not everyone would use the square edge jig, the truing tool is essential for everyone.

I have no idea how many Tormek users have upgraded to the Advanced Water Trough. I doubt it would be a profitable accessory only item for Tormek. Hanving used the T4 for several years, it would be a tough sale to convince me to upgrade mine. Yes, I would probably do it, but only for the non logical reason of being a Tormek junkie.

I suggest you enjoy your Tormek. Enjoy it for what it is, a versatile, well designed and built tool. It is not perfect, but it is close. Use good technique to minimize water spillage with large tools and a towel or paper towel to absorb any spillage.

Ken

[Macjl]

Ken,
Yep - finally your suggestion has been tested.  That is, be as minimalist as possible with the water level in the T4 water trough. I still get a few spills but nothing like before when I sharpen my wider plane irons. Thank you for your advice a couple of weeks ago.
It might be an idea to point this out to Tormek and for them to caveat the idea of filling the water level to the maximum level on the trough. Just saying!!! It's not another criticism 
Mac

[cbwx34]

Ken,
Yep - finally your suggestion has been tested.  That is, be as minimalist as possible with the water level in the T4 water trough. I still get a few spills but nothing like before when I sharpen my wider plane irons. Thank you for your advice a couple of weeks ago.
It might be an idea to point this out to Tormek and for them to caveat the idea of filling the water level to the maximum level on the trough. Just saying!!! It's not another criticism 
Mac

Continues to elude me.      Glad it worked for you though. 

[Ken S]

CB,

If parts of the Tormek did not elude us, it wouldn't be half as much fun. I have figured out a few of the mysteries. Most recently is the blackstone, from posts. (I am embarrassed to admit it, however, I purchased my blackstone in 2010, and it has been a source of frustration until last month. I now feel confident enough to try using it again.

I think the whole forum benefits from things eluding us!

Keep moving forward........

Ken

[Herman Trivilino]

I shall tune out now.

It may help you to know, Macjl, that I have been using a Tormek since 2002 and even though I could add the Advanced Water Trough to my machine, I don't really see the need for it. I just catch the spilled water that overflows. As you gain experience your technique will develop and you will find yourself spilling less water.

[Elden]

   For whatever it is worth, I saw this quote in an article:
"Make sure you have a "wet" area to use the grinder in - expect to get wet!"
http://www.woodworkersinstitute.com/woodworking-crafts/kit-tools/ancillary-equipment/sharpening/tormek-1200

[Ken S]

Interesting article, however I have a couple of issues with it.

The author states he would not use the smaller Tormek (or perhaps any Tormek) for sharpening chisels and planes for furniture making. Is this based on actual use or having read that an 8000 grit waterstone should be used? For decades (centuries) Arkansas stones were are still are used as the polishing stones by furniture makers. These legendary stones have no finer grit than the Tormek PA-70 honing compound. The author offers no supporting evidence for his recommendation.

I think the water spillage issue is overblown. I watched Steve Bottorff demonstrate with a T4 and T7 all day with the Tormeks just placed on cardboard over a new expensive workbench. There was some water spillage, however, it was very minimal. I think much spillage is the result of poor technique. I do use a Tormek rubber mat, however not much water spills. A turkey baster helps control spillage when removing the water.

Ken

[cbwx34]

...  I watched Steve Bottorff demonstrate with a T4 and T7 all day with the Tormeks just placed on cardboard over a new expensive workbench. There was some water spillage, however, it was very minimal. I think much spillage is the result of poor technique. I do use a Tormek rubber mat, however not much water spills. A turkey baster helps control spillage when removing the water.

Ken

You've mentioned this before... but as I said earlier, if Steve is sharpening with his usual method, from the horizontal support, water runoff isn't really an issue, because it doesn't build up on the knife/tool.

Ran across this on Instagram... a guy actually made a little "rain gutter" (my term)... to help channel the water (from the machine side)...



https://instagram.com/p/BEnC8BPgCgU
... (if you follow the link, you can see it in action). 

[RickKrung]

Good comments. From my unscientific viewpoint, I don't think the volume in the tray is what matters. I think what is important is the amount of arc of the grinding wheel which is submerged and bringing up water. I like to keep the flowing water to a minimum, so I keep the water level as low as possible.

Keep up the critical thinking.

Ken

I don't think any of that matters.  I believe it is simple physics.  I think the amount of water on the wheel is the result of the surface tension of water.  If the full width of the wheel contacts the water (and breaks the surface tension), as it exits contact with the water, the surface tension will cause the same amount of water to be carried up the wheel, regardless of how deeply the wheel was submerged in the water. 

If you want to reduce the amount of water on the wheel, I believe you would need to devise a controlled water application, similar to how coolant is applied to the cutter and work pieces on machine tools (flood coolant on lathes & mills but "flood" would not different, perhaps worse).  It may be as little as dripping water on the back side of the wheel without the wheel being submerged in a pool of water at all, or a small stream of water. I think the latter as without enough water, you lose the benefit/function of water on the wheel - cooling.

Rick