Sharpening Problem

[nmcarver]

As a new T-8 owner, I've been sharpening my chisels and gouges for wood carving.  I've had no problems with the process using the wheel in its course mode.  However, when I tried to touch up my Stubai 1/4" gouge veiner, I destroyed the tip, eating through the edge.  Though I was trying to use a light touch, apparently it wasn't light enough.  I had the veiner in the Tormek small tool jig and was having trouble following the tight contour.  Was it not made for use with a veiner?  Don't know if I should have started out by re-dressing the stone to its fine-grit mode before I started or is this tool just too small for sharpening with the T-8.  Guess I could have used just a diamond stone instead and freehanded it.  By the way, Having not seen a chisel/gouge forum here, I assumed this would be an appropriate forum.  This is my first post.

[cbwx34]

As a new T-8 owner, I've been sharpening my chisels and gouges for wood carving.  I've had no problems with the process using the wheel in its course mode.  However, when I tried to touch up my Stubai 1/4" gouge veiner, I destroyed the tip, eating through the edge.  Though I was trying to use a light touch, apparently it wasn't light enough.  I had the veiner in the Tormek small tool jig and was having trouble following the tight contour.  Was it not made for use with a veiner?  Don't know if I should have started out by re-dressing the stone to its fine-grit mode before I started or is this tool just too small for sharpening with the T-8.  Guess I could have used just a diamond stone instead and freehanded it.  By the way, Having not seen a chisel/gouge forum here, I assumed this would be an appropriate forum.  This is my first post.

Welcome to the forum.

I don't know anything about the tool you described (I'm sure someone will be along who does)... but just a couple of comments...

"Touchups" (and sharpening in general) should be done with the stone graded "fine", and on a small tool, with the wheel turning away from the edge.  (I wonder if touchups could/should be done on the leather honing wheel)?  The stone graded coarse can be pretty aggressive... designed for repairs, major reprofiles, etc.  I do mostly knives... and I rarely find the need to grade the stone coarse.  I would think all the tools you mentioned would benefit grading the stone to fine, unless repairs or reprofiling is needed.

I would guess it could be done on the Tormek, but the specific questions about the gouge (which jig, etc.), I'll leave to someone who knows this stuff. 

[Stickan]

Hi,
Smaller woodcarvingtools are easiest sharpened with the stones direction and with a finer stone. Using the SP-650 and smoothen the grids is an important step.
What I have seen during many years are that some tools dont have the same thickness all over the blade. This makes them a bit tricky to sharpen and the easiest way is to follow the steps on page 69 in the handbook (SVS-32/SVS-33) and make a "line of light", flattening the edge against the stone and use this to have control over where to remove more or less steel until you have reached the tip .This is controlled by less pressure on the edge where you need to be careful so you dont remove to much steel which will otherwise make a unwanted dip in the edge line.


Sincerely,
Stig

[Ken S]

Nmcarver,

Welcome to the forum. I noticed your post, but hesitated to be the first responder. I am not a carver.

You had better responses fron CB and Stig. These two posts bring up two very under used resources: 1) the stone grader, and 2) the handbook.

There is a very common misconception among beginners, and some long time users, that using the stone grader should be avoided because it consumes our precious grinding wheels. I speak from experience; I was among the "precious grinding wheel" crowd for a long time. I finally realized that grinding wheels are like brake shoes on a car. They are long term consumables. The only precious things are the persons for whom we sharpen.

The stone grader greatly expands the range of the Tormek. I do not think in terms of grit numbers, however, I know that I can go from coarse grading through a middle setting to full fine. I only discovered full fine this year by using the stone grader for a very long time. There is much value in spending some time with bench chisels learning how to effectively use the stone grader.

Periodically, I reread the entire handbook. It is like having a private class with Torgny Jansson, the inventor of the Tormek. I always learn more, and have never been disappointed.

Nmcarver, do keep us posted.

Ken

ps I almost forgot one of my main points. Start slow. For delicate tools like carving tools, I might start with the leather honing wheel. If some time with that did not suffice, I would move to the SG graded full fine. The next step, only if needed, would be the SG, graded in between. Always use a light touch.

[nmcarver]

The common denominator here is that I was in error using the wheel with its course grind.  The next time I'm using the Tormek, I'll grind it to its "fine" condition and use that grade for future sharpening.  Only if I need to reshape a tool will I revert back to the course grade.  I'll also hit the instruction book again, paying more attention to refining the edge on small tools.  One thing that still disturbs me, however, is that even the short-tool jig felt awkward with a veiner of that small a radius.  The contour of the jig didn't seem to follow the contour of the u-shaped blade and that added to my mis-handling of the process.  I may have applied more pressure to one area trying to turn the veiner tip while the jig guide surface was more or less flat at that point.   In any case, the finer grit would have surely resulted in less damage.  I would be interested in finding out if there are small-edged tools that are indeed too small for even the short jig tool.  If so, I'd learn to freehand the tool using the fine grit. I have a 1/8" veiner that still has a good tip, though slightly dull.  I suspect that it may be too small for use with the jig in that the tightening screw wouldn't fit into the tight stem curve.

[Ken S]

Most of the jigs seem to work better with larger tools. The Square edge jigs are easier to use with larger chisels and plane blades. That is one reason I recommend learning with a 3/4" wide bench chisel. It is wide enough to fit in the jig quite comfortably. Sharpening a 1/8" or 1/4" chisel requires more finesse/skill. Very small plane blades, like plow plane blades, are also difficult, whereas the blades of block and bench planes fit easily.

With knife jigs, larger blades are no problem. The small blade tool will handle carving chisels with substantial handles. For very small blades, in my opinion, the best jig going is Herman's small platform. The Tormek platform works very well, with larger tools. When jigs are redesigned, and improved, the emphasis seems to be on handling ever larger tools.

Several years ago, I met a violin maker and a carver, both of whom are devoted many year Tormek users. Unfortunately we do not seem to have any active woodcarvers of long experience on the forum. Nor have I found any good videos on sharpening with Tormek for carvers. Jig guided gentle sharpening with the water cooled Tormek seems a natural fit for carvers. I hope this situation will improve.

Ken

[RichColvin]

Nmcarver,

I have a small veiner that I've not used in years (I turn much more than carve).  Let me try a few thoughts I have tomorrow and get back (I'm thinking that the SVS-50 multijig may work).

Rich

[RichColvin]

NmCarver,

As promised, I tried a few things today.  The tool I sharpened is a 4mm veiner.

I tried using the SVS-32 Short Tool Jig (I have the older version, not the newer SVS-38).  I found it wasn't useful as it would not allow me to rotate the tool to adequately sharpen the top "wings" of the tool.  But, don't despair.  I did find two options that worked magnificently. 

My first attempt was using the D collar I'd designed earlier (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3331.msg20046#msg20046).

Pictures below show it :

The settings I used are :

• Universal Support Bar set using the TTS-100 in the B hole
• Projection set using the TTS-100 at 55mm (pictures above show a 65mm projection)

This produced a grind angle of about 25°.  I tried it again with :

• Projection set using the TTS-100 at 65mm

This produced a grind angle of about 20°.

I repeated this experiment using the SVS-50 Multi Jig, as shown below.

The SVS-50 Multi Jig produced the same results as the D collar.

The edge I produced is shown below.  This was straight off the SB-250 wheel; I didn't hone it or touch it up on the SJ-250 grindstone.

You can probably see in my pictures that the MVS-50 is on the tool about as far up as it can go.  If I were to sharpen this more often, I would probably pursue using the MVS-50 with a different approach than using the TTS-100.  As the veiner got shorter with sharpening, this would be an untenable approach.  Consider something like the KenJig approach for setting the distance between the Universal Support Bar and the grindstone, and look at a projection nearer 20-30mm.

Hope that helps.

Kind regards,
Rich

[Ken S]

Rich,

The kenjig was not originally designed for knives. The knife emphasis was a product of Dutchman posting his grinding angles booklet and meeting knife expert Steve Bottorff. Having Dutchman's tables and the chance to work closely with a real expert, I put woodworking tools on hold.

My original kenjig use was with chisels and plane blades. I am not a carver, but thought early on that the kenjig idea would fit carving tools very well. Even with no specific tables, noting the Projection and Distance setting for different carving tools would make exacting set up only necessary once per tool. The initial set up could be done with black marker, Anglemaster, or tables.

Ken

[nmcarver]

Rich-  Where could I find a D collar?

[RichColvin]

Bob,

I made mine using a steel pipe and steel square rod.  Cut a ⅜" long piece of 2" ID pipe, then split it into two halves.  Welded a ⅜" x ⅜" piece of rod onto that, then ground it down to look pretty good (as I'm not a professional welder!!).

Then drilled and tapped a hole for a screw. 


But, you could get a collar at the hardware store that is smaller, say ¼" to ½" inside diameter.  McMaster Carr sells them also (https://www.mcmaster.com/#shaft-collars/=19ce2z1). 

You will need a longer screw to replace the set screw.  Total cost should be about $5.

Kind regards,
Rich

[RichColvin]

Bob,

You and a number of other Tormekers got me thinking about how to make an easy way to calculate non-standard measurements on the Tormek.

Problem Statement :  If you want to quickly calculate how to grind an angle for sharpening, and the "normal" tools (e.g., the TTS-100 Turning Tool Setter) don't fit the bill, how would you proceed ?

I found this to be the case when sharpening a 4mm veiner.  The 55mm projection worked fine using the B hole, but that won't be the case as I shorten the tool over time.  Eventually, I won't be able to provide a 55mm projection.


Discussion :  Certainly, the typical approach is to use the WM-200 AngleMaster to set the angle, and play around with the gap between the Universal Support Bar (USB) and the grindstone.  But that is a bit cumbersome, and I'm not a big fan of the WM-200.  I find it a bit clunky to use.


Proposed Solution :  I took the calculation methods that others like Wootz, Jan, and CBRX have outlined and programmed them into a web tool for this use.  You can get to it via my site, http://SharpeningHandbook.info.  I've put links in on the knife sharpening pages (it is the little calculator icon), or you can go directly there via this link :  http://sharpeninghandbook.info/indexCalcProj.html .  (I added a link at the bottom of that page that outlines the methodology I use, but here is the direct link to that :  http://sharpeninghandbook.info/indexCalcProjDetails.html .)


Initial Field Testing Results :  I tested this approach on a tool I was using for my Ornamental Turning Lathe.  I needed a cutter with a 60° included cutting angle (30° bevel angle).  This cutter is made from ⅛" round rod stock.  Small stuff and difficult to handle in a traditional manner.  (You can see what this cutter looks like at this link :  it is the small triangular piece of steel mounted in the brass ferrule, at the far right part of the picture.  http://www.billooms.com/Resources/OTCutting/HCF.jpg ).

I set the projection at 40mm and the distance from the USB to the wheel at 8mm (as that is what was calculated for my grindstone diameter).

I tried to use the SVS-50 Multi Jig to hold the rod, but found the short projection made this difficult due to my need to rotate the rod some where between 180° and 270°.  The SVS-50 kept hitting the grindstone.  So, I resorted to holding the cutter in a round collar with a 7/16" internal diameter. 

After sharpening the rod to a point, then grinding off the top side so the flat came to the point, I found that the angle produced was pretty darn close to 60° !!  Frankly, it is good enough for what I need to do.


My Ask :  I am seeking feedback on this approach.  It is different from Wootz', and that is purposeful.  His approach seems great for a production knife sharpener, but this is meant to be a little more generic in nature.


Kind regards,
Rich


Note Regarding Sharping the Cutter in the Future :  I will soon be building a goniostat to hold the cutter when sharpening on the Tormek.  Mine will be similar to the one shown here :  https://i.pinimg.com/564x/0e/16/05/0e16059c5c9ef63c1420518c09669585.jpg .  More on that when I get it built and tested ...