Probable New Tomek T4 owner

[Wdcarver55]

I've got the opportunity to pick up a used T4 with 6-7 different jigs for a very good price. I've seriously thought about making the investment but could never pull the trigger. Being a woodcarver that will be the tools it'll be used with plus the wife's scissors as she is a very good seamstrist along with the kitchen knives. Look forward to being on here and learning from you guys and ladies.

[grepper]

I'm sure Ken S will respond to your post.  He has both a T7 and T4 and has written great reviews of the T4 here.   Do a little searching around here on the forum or go back a few pages in the General Tormek Questions and you'll find some of Ken's posts re the T4.  He seems quite impressed with the unit.

[Ken S]

Welcome to the forum, Wdcarver. (Thanks for the intro, Grepper.)

I think the T4 would be ideally suited for woodcarving. It shares all the same jigs as the larger T7. What I really like about it is how portable it is. To give a micro recap of my review, I would base the choice between the T4 and T7 on the kind of sharpening you do. High carbon steel carving chisels certainly do not require the extra power of the larger unit.

You will find this forum has a number of posting members who have shared ideas beyond the standard handbook Tormek technique. The Tormek is very suited to innovation. One of my ideas is carrying the T4 in a single ball bowling bag. The bag holds the T4 and everything you need and, fully loaded, is still light and compact enough to carry all day on your shoulder.

I consistently recommend ignoring several things with the Tormek models. Do not fall into the buying the T4 instead of the T7 to save money. Make your choice based on your planned use. Do not fall for the fifty per cent duty motor nonsense. You will need a rest long before your Tormek. The beauty of the Tormek system is how little steel is removed to restore a keen edge to your tools.

Do not be influenced by amount of hollow grind theory. You are carving wood, not iron or marble.

I believe you will be delighted with the T4. Tormek did some serious redesigning and upgrading over the T3. The T4 is professional grade. The tolerances are at least as tight as the T7. As I noted in a post yesterday, the only difference in the two main shafts is a very small amount of length.

Do continue posting and keep us in the loop with your Tormek journey.

Ken

PS If it is not included in your package, you will need a TT-50 truing tool.

[Wdcarver55]

Grepper and Ken S
Thanks for the response
I'm not sure now if the machine I've talked to the guy about is the 2000 or the T3. In an additional email he mentioned he had had the machine for 10-11 years. In your opinion would either of these be worth $500 with the 6-7 jigs? Would a stone that old start to deteriorate in 10 years? He did say he thought the stone is in good shape.

Plus I'll have to make a 400 mile round trip to get it. The gentleman is worried about the stone getting damaged in shipment.

Ken he lists the AVD-50D diamond truing tool in the list plus the SP-650 stone Grader.

I've told him I'll let him know by Wednesday night if I'm getting it, any advice with the above information would be appreciated.

Thanks again

[grepper]

Wdcarver55, please check your My Messages.

[Ken S]

Wdcarver,

Your new information changes my advice. The T4 has been in production for only a year and a few months. The T3 since 2008. I would not purchase a T3. The redesign benefits of the T4 are substantial.

For an experienced Tormeker, a good used 2000 at the right price might be a good deal. However, I strongly believe a new user is better served with a new Tormek for several reasons.

Tormek has made several improvements over the years in both the machines and the jigs/accessories. The most obvious is the shaft. The old steel shafts required, but did not always receive, fastidious maintenance. If the water was not drained after sharpening the shafts would sometimes rust solid to the grinding wheel. The shafts were upgraded to stainless steel. My first T7 had a ss shaft. Then the EZYlock shaft, which is a major improvement. (My first T7 was stolen; that is the reason for the second T7.)

The universal support bars were upgraded to include the threaded micro adjust, another substantial improvement.

The truing tool was redesigned to include a very controllable screw feed. When used with the micro adjust universal support, trying is much improved.

There are many upgrades in the jigs.

All of these can be retrofitted to an older Tormek at a cost. Unfortunately, the used market for Tormeks is overpriced in my opinion. A new shaft, universal support and truing tool will add two hundred dollars US to the cost.

The new warranty is of substantial value. Unless the asking price is no more than two hundred dollars, I recommend politely declining. Unfortunately, there are plenty of fools willing to pay close to new. Even at a great price, I would still recommend new and purchased through an authorized dealer, even if it means waiting until you can save enough money.

I am glad you posted the extra information. Please do not hesitate to ask more questions.

Ken

[Ken S]

Oops......

I overlooked the $500 cost figure. In my opinion, that is too high. I think a realistic price would be far enough below that So that my recommendation would be to very politely decline. I believe the seller is trying to set a fair market price. The used Tormek market is just crazy.

I stand behind my new recommendation, even if it means waiting. A Tormek is a lifetime investment.

Ken

[SharpenADullWitt]

For the T2000, or the Supergrind 2000 (name depending on when it was made), you need to know its condition and if any upgrades have been done, before you spend that kind of money, IMHO, coming from someone who did that.
Mine is a Supergrind 2000, that I bought used, with multiple jigs (all the turning ones), for less then $200 (rare price).  The upgrades that happened during its lifetime, compared to new and what has been upgraded:
Frame design changed from square and gained a wheel size sticker.
Additional mounting part for the bar (front sleeves)
Shaft with microadjust came out, I have both.
Some of the jigs changed somewhere along the way.
Switch changed along the way.
Shaft went to stainless steel, then later to stainless and tool free wheel change.
Front mounting gained a second knob.
The anglemaster has changed to ad smaller degree's.
Water tray has changed on the T7's to the newer style. (wider)

My frame is the same design as the current, compared with some of the square frame ones I still see for sale.  (clearance issues on some things, according to some old Farris posts)
The prior owner, chipped the stone after letting it set on the shaft for too long.  He replaced the stone, prior to me buying it, and I bought the new stainless, tool free shaft.
I bought the hand tool kit, which included some updated jigs.
I upgraded the water tray and bought the rotating base.
I have yet to buy the upgrade, two knob front mount (haven't seen the need, but will and use the old, non threaded bar, with the old on the bench grinder for rough shaping work, as a BGM 100)
I have yet to upgrade or replace the anglemaster (have access to another, but haven't needed anything that low, yet).
I expected to have to refinish mine, as chipping paint was a frequent topic in the past (seems they went from paint to powder coat at some point).  But I spent time cleaning the old glue and sawdust from the base, where he had it on his bench, and I found no chips/rust or need to.

[Ken S]

Excellent post, SADW.

Ken

[Ken S]

SADW's last post gives us much food for thought. The Tormek is evolving, and continues to do so. As with most products, some of these improvements are substantial and some are less so. I consider the combination of the new TT-50 truing tool and micro adjust universal support must have innovations.

I suspect the new switch was must have to satisfy safety regulators, although it seems more necessary with a table saw than with a Tormek.

The new water tray seems "nice to have" although many of us do fine with a towel to catch the water and a taped on magnet.

The front sleeves are right up there for me with the improved truing tool and universal support. I like SADW's thought about possibly upgrading to the two screw model and using his present front sleeves like a BGM-100. If I ever get really innovative, I will make a wooden base for my Tormek with several BGM-100s to allow much more flexible use of the Tormek.

I started before the EZYlock shaft. I could certainly work without it, although I would miss it. I would classify it "really nice to have".

The newer square edge jig is easier to use. However, many original jigs still give trooper service. The new design also handles plane blades wider than 60mm. For anyone using a number eight jointer plane this is a game changer.

The lower angle range with the anglemaster could easily be measured with a rule and added with a fine tip marker. Not an elegant fix, but certainly workable. I would replace an ancient WM-100 ancestral anglemaster.

The wheel diameter is easily measured with a rule when the wheel is removed to relube the bushings. The diameter scale is clever, but far from a top priority.

All totaled, the improvements to the Tormek are substantial. When one includes the substantial new Tormek warranty, buying new makes sense to me. Upgrading just the universal support, truing tool and shaft will add two hundred dollars to the cost of an older Tormek. In the rare case of motor repair, your bargain Tormek becomes just "for parts".

That being said, if I saw a Tormek in reasonable condition for well under two hundred dollars, it might end up being a second unit for my SJ-250 fine stone. My chances are slim to none of finding that deal.

Thanks again, SADW, good post.

Ken

[SharpenADullWitt]

SADW's last post gives us much food for thought. The Tormek is evolving, and continues to do so. As with most products, some of these improvements are substantial and some are less so. I consider the combination of the new TT-50 truing tool and micro adjust universal support must have innovations.
The old truing tool has an upgrade for it.  The tool was a missing piece on mine so I ordered a new one.
I suspect the new switch was must have to satisfy safety regulators, although it seems more necessary with a table saw than with a Tormek.
Only reason I mentioned the switch, was I saw it in a discussion, that involved unplugging the Tormek while running and plugging it back in.

The new water tray seems "nice to have" although many of us do fine with a towel to catch the water and a taped on magnet.

The front sleeves are right up there for me with the improved truing tool and universal support. I like SADW's thought about possibly upgrading to the two screw model and using his present front sleeves like a BGM-100. If I ever get really innovative, I will make a wooden base for my Tormek with several BGM-100s to allow much more flexible use of the Tormek.

I started before the EZYlock shaft. I could certainly work without it, although I would miss it. I would classify it "really nice to have".

The newer square edge jig is easier to use. However, many original jigs still give trooper service. The new design also handles plane blades wider than 60mm. For anyone using a number eight jointer plane this is a game changer.

The lower angle range with the anglemaster could easily be measured with a rule and added with a fine tip marker. Not an elegant fix, but certainly workable. I would replace an ancient WM-100 ancestral anglemaster.

The wheel diameter is easily measured with a rule when the wheel is removed to relube the bushings. The diameter scale is clever, but far from a top priority.

All totaled, the improvements to the Tormek are substantial. When one includes the substantial new Tormek warranty, buying new makes sense to me. Upgrading just the universal support, truing tool and shaft will add two hundred dollars to the cost of an older Tormek. In the rare case of motor repair, your bargain Tormek becomes just "for parts".

That being said, if I saw a Tormek in reasonable condition for well under two hundred dollars, it might end up being a second unit for my SJ-250 fine stone. My chances are slim to none of finding that deal.

Thanks again, SADW, good post.

Ken

The newer square edge jig isn't the only one that changed. From reading here, if one has the SE-60, it is worth hanging on to, besides using the SE-76 for some stuff.
The SVS-38 changed during it as well and I believe the old was SVS-40 (really wish Tormek would have a legacy section of the site, for historical purposes). 
The SVD-186 has changed a couple times (believe mine was an SVD-180, upgraded to a SVD-185).
The SVS-50 has changed in size somewhat.   Gave my dad the old and I obtained another on the day I needed it and he was out of town.  (finding things in anothers shop, can be an experience)

This is where I say I would disagree with you:
I will say the EZ lock shaft, IMHO, is an upgrade one NEEDS to buy, if they are on the old chrome shafts.  If one gets one that is stainless steel and has the regular nut, then it is only a nice thing to have.  Most of the used Tormek stuff I have seen, have the rust around the shaft issue, and I am sure the flaking chrome issue (mine had missing chrome, but was recently cleaned, greased and a new stone put on)  I've seen rust more then not, and most people I know, life gets in the way of maintenance, more often then not.  The only reason not to, is you already have it, the stainless shaft, or someone has given you their old stainless shaft, that uses a nut, when they upgraded (I looked before spending money, no luck).

[Ken S]

Points well taken, SADW.

I became aware of the truing tool upgrade, the TT-50U, when I mistakenly ordered one. I thought I had destroyed my diamond. The TT-50U costs little more than the diamond itself. It is designed for the user who has the older truing tool and would like to upgrade while not needing to purchase another diamond cluster. Nice idea.

For me, the switch is a non issue. I have used both.

I have talked with longtime owners who have fastidiously maintained their Tormeks and have clean shafts. That said, I agree with you about the importance of the stainless steel shaft. The EZYlock is very convenient. The problems occur only when the operators forget that it has a left hand thread. I placed a piece of Scotch tape on my housing with an arrow. No problem since then.

I purchased an older square edge jig long after it was discontinued. This was based on a forum discussion with Ionut. He wanted to sharpen a traditional mortise chisel (called rather ungloriously a "pig sticker"). It was too thick to fit in the SE-76. It fit in the older jig. Being a Tormek junkie I purchased a new old stock older jig just in case I ever bought a larger mortise chisel. Today I would just use the plarform jig.

This discussion about changes in the jigs reinforces my idea that purchasing a lot of jigs just because you might possibly need them someday may or may not be such a good idea. I have done that, and most of those jigs have never been used. So far, I have had the self disvipline not to purchase an ax jig. I do not own an ax, nor ever plan to.

Good info "from the trenches", SADW.

Ken