Problems to solve

[tahodgson]

Experiencing frustrations with the scissors-sharpening jig:
1.  At anything greater than a 65-degree bevel, I get a lot of vibration and noise.  The T4 is nearly new, so can it be a problem with the stone this soon?
2.  I try to keep the water even across the blade as I grind.  In doing so, water pours off the inside edge of the scissors onto the top of the unit, then runs down between the side of the unit and the water tray, onto the benchtop and creates a big mess.  Am I doing something wrong, or is this simply (really) bad design?
3.  Any hints for using the WM-200 jig?  The little back edge on the degree dial is so small, and so little of that edge contacts the plate or the clamping plate when I use that), that it's essentially worthless.  I've resorted to trial and error using a permanent marker...but that seems like a pretty poor solution to bad design, as well.

Plenty frustrated with this very expensive jig for a very expensive tool.  Would appreciate any help.

[grepper]

Welcome to the forum!

1.  As far as I know that annoying screeching, squealing vibration is unavoidable at higher angles and with some scissors.  I've tried a smoother grindstone, rougher grindstone, more or less pressure without success.  Holding or pressing on an area of the blade that is not supported by the clamp seems to help some.  I do not think there is anything wrong with your grindstone. While it's definitely annoying, it does not seem to effect sharpening.

Watch this video.  Jeff Farris calls the vibration "Just a fact of life".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGFeBd8ZspM

2.  The Tormek can be messy; however the mess can be significantly reduced by not using more water in the trough than necessary.  I've found you only need to fill with just enough water to cover the lower ¼" to ½" (6-12mm) of the wheel.  Just enough to keep it wet.

Water running over the machine won't hurt it.  I have an aluminum tray under mine.  Some water around the place is just a fact of life with a water wheel.

3.  There is some handy information on using the WM-200 in the above linked video that may resolve your issues when using it.  I frequently use the marker method and just match the existing angle.

[stevebot]

I agree 100% with Grepper.
I always use the marker trick to match the angle.
Tormek is not at its best as a scissor sharpener, but I probably should not say that here.

[Ken S]

I hesitate to comment too much about sharpening scissors because I have only sharpened a very few scissors. With that stated, I do have a few thoughts:

I like a lot about the T4. I think it is a great machine, and every inch a Tormek. I have enjoyed using one for over a year (six years with the T7).  One of the very few things I do not like about the T4 is that Tormek has decided to market it without the TT-50 Truing Tool. No grinder, wet or dry, should be used without a truing tool. Even a new machine and wheel should be trued to mate well. With regular light truing, you avoid a multitude of problems. Get a TT-50!

One of the many things I observed at the last February woodworking show in Hartville, where I met Steve, was how little water spilled. Steve had both a T4 and a T& running when I arrived in the morning. He had set them up with enough, but not too much water. Since then, I try to set up my Tormek with enough water to cover the stone when first turned on. I let the motor run for a little while to allow the grinding wheel to finish absorbing water. The ideal is enough water to keep the surface of the wheel wet, but not too much. A person more clever than I am might measure the amount of water required and make a note of the ounces or milliliters. (hint, hint)

If you have read my posts, you will know that I try to eliminate having to use the Anglemaster as much as possible. When you must use it, it is a good tool.  Most of the time I find it tedious, especially with tools such as knives and scissors which have small bevels. It works much better with bench chisels and bench plane blades.

I increaingly use the marker instead of the Anglemaster. I tried a set up this evening, but I don't have a good pair of scissors nearby. My electrician's "snips" do not work well in the scissors jig. Here is what I tried to do. Perhaps it will work well for you. If you can set up the scissors jig with a pair of scissors with a scissors with a clean bevel. By "clean" I mean a bevel which works well with the marker. 

Set up the platform part of the jig.

Take something like a motel door key card and place it against the platform. This wil become your reference measuring surface with the anglemaster. Make a note of this angle. It should work with all future scissors of similar construction.

This idea is borrowed from the knife jig posts. (Jan suggested using the thin card, which I think is very clever. Good job, Jan!) As I have not actually tried it, I would welcome comments, good or skeptical.

I agree with both Mark (Grepper) and Steve. As Steve describes his Tormek as "the workhorse of his sharpening shop", although he is not ecstatic about the scissors jig, he must like other functions of the Tormek.

Ken

[Herman Trivilino]

1.  At anything greater than a 65-degree bevel, I get a lot of vibration and noise.  The T4 is nearly new, so can it be a problem with the stone this soon?

Try applying more or less force. Try rotating the scissor blade slightly in the plane of of the platform. In other words, not in a way that would tend to lift it off the platform.

Chattering can happen when sharpening other things, too. It's a resonance condition meaning you're doing what a violin player would do to a violin string. Except it's exactly what he's trying to do and exactly what you're trying to not do!

[Herman Trivilino]

I always use the marker trick to match the angle.

Many scissors don't have a uniform bevel angle. It's steeper at the tip, more blunt near the hinge. Of course, after sharpening on a Tormek that's no longer the case. 

[Elden]

   Can the scissors jig be used on the BGM-100? That is a loaded question that I imagine would be told a resounding no by corporate Tormek. However, I am asking those of you who have both the BGM-100 and the SVX-150.
   Personally, I have had a dry grinding scissors machine for years. It works very well. There is no chatter or squealing problems. Overheating is not a problem with reasonable care. It has a white wheel (I believe 100 grit) that is designed for scissors grinding and an impregnated honing wheel that is quite aggressive.

[grepper]

I'm curious what you have Elden, a Twice-as-Sharp?  A Foley?

[grepper]

Hey!  I forgot.  But just remembered.  Quite some time ago I actually tried that once... sort of.

I used the clamp half of the scissors jig on my Craftsman variable speed bench grinder with a 60 grit wheel by just sliding the clamp on the tool rest of the grinder.

To my surprise it worked quite well and only took one pass or so.  It was fast!  It got the scissors nice and sharp.  I was quick about it, and it was 60 grit so heat was not an issue.  Of course it was a pretty rough grind, but it worked nonetheless.

From that crude experiment I would guess that the BGM-100 / SVX-150 combo would work well, especially with a variable speed grinder and a higher grit wheel.  The BGM-100 / SVX-150 combo would work much better than the test that I did.  It would be interesting to try it.

[tahodgson]

Thanks, everyone, for all the great info.  It will greatly help my approach in the future.  My wife loved the newly sharpened scissors, by the way, so all the screeching was worth it.  I did a standard pair of Fiskars, and it rocked...even on my first try. 

One thing I've found, that the ergonomic handles on Fiskars and many other knock-offs catch on the platform, so I just take them apart.  A nuisance, but reduces errors.

[grepper]

tahodgson, Cool, huh.     Good for you!

You might be able to avoid the handle catching by moving jig base slightly off center of the wheel and letting the clamp slide part way off the base when sharpening.

Just an idea.

[grepper]

One thing I should add to the bench grinder idea is that it was so fast and so aggressive that there was little room for mistakes.  It would be very easy to trash a pair of scissors or to remove more steel than necessary.

With the Tormek you can be careful, take your time, and even work on one section of a blade if it needs more attention, etc.

[Ken S]

Tom, a question and a comment:

I am pleased your efforts have proven successful. All too often that seems to be how we learn. The important thing is to learn. For the benefit of others who will be reading your posts, would you please give a recap of how you journeyed from frustrated to successful. Your thoughts might save readers considerable frustration.

My comment: While researching this, I watched the video Grepper posted. It, and the other videos Jeff Farris did should be on everyone's frequently watched list. I learn from them each time I view them. I also wish they were more in depth. Fortunately, we do have a DVD which goes into much more depth. I also just re watched Steve Bottorff's sharpening School DVD (available from his website, sharpeningmadeeasy.com). A good sharpener should know so much  more than just how to grind. Steve does an excellent job of providing that information. His DVD covers knives,scissors, and garden tools. I continue to find it quite valuable for my home sharpening. For anyone contemplating a business in sharpening, it is a must.

I am pleased the guys on the forum have helped and encouraged you. (We all need both from time to time.) I hope you will continue to post. Be warned, Herman's "sharpening hobby" can be addictive!

Ken

[stevebot]

Scissor jig should be as close to the wheel as possible.  This could be contributing to the squealing.

[tahodgson]

Ken and everyone,

  Thanks for the encouragement.  First, a little full disclosure...I've only done two pair of scissors, but both turned out well.
  My "path" was two-fold:  Step one was reading the manual about five times, so that I was super-clear on both the philosophical approach to wet grinding, and then the technical approach.
Step two was watching anything I could find on YouTube, and agree that I found the Jeff Farris videos were very complete and helpful.  It's always great when you get information that isn't in the manual (which this forum has also provided in abundance).
  As far as technique, I didn't "plunge" in.  I took things slowly, much like in my wood turning, a little at a time, trying to be patient.  This is where the reliance on the marker, and not the WM-200.  I'll take grepper's advice and re-watch the Farris video and pay special attention to the section on the WM-200.
  Again, thanks to everyone.  I'm going to have my wife look for a smallish cookie sheet or shallow baking pan on her next trip to the thrift store.
~Tom