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Knife Point Setting Template

Started by Jan, October 27, 2015, 06:49:00 PM

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Jan

In summer this year we have discussed the importance of pivoting the knife when sharpening its point. See http://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=2562.15 At this occasion I have introduced prototype of my tool's entitled Knife Tip Point Setting Template.

This template should allow easy knife mounting into SVM-45 knife jig, in a way that ensures the same bevel angle at the straight part of the blade and the point. Since that time I have slightly improved the concept and prepared a digital version of this template, which is now ready for your potential download.

In the picture below you can see my Knife Tip Point Setting Template designed for Ken's projection length 139 mm:



In the next picture, you can see that the knife jig is generally not placed equidistantly between the point of the knife and where the blade joins with the handle of the knife.



The improved design of the Knife Tip Point Setting Template is here:



The template can be  downloaded/printed  from the following address:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xqwn5xuk0r07z5d/TEMPLATE_139MM.pdf?dl=1


Print the image at the actual original size and check that the projection length is really 139 mm.

Jan

P.S.: For info concerning Ken's projection length 139 mm concept see https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bye-818SN85DdzB3bU9aUU81eTg/view?usp=sharing , and also the newer thread http://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?topic=2639.0 .

Ken S

Jan,

Thank you for posting this useful visual aid.

I came up with the 139mm length by noting the minimum and maximum distances with my three most commonly used kitchen knives, paring (with Tormek small knife tool in knife jig); slicer; and chef's knife. 139mm was around midpoint of the common part of the range, and allowed some room for grinding wheel diameter wear.

I would encourage all of you to do these measurements for yourselves. It takes only a very few minutes, and will deepen your understanding of the process.

Jan, I will print your drawing and incorporate it into my knife sharpening.  Good work.

Ken

Jan

#2
Ken, you are very modest. I like more and more your Kenjig approach with an emphasis on minimizing measuring when setting knife for sharpening on Tormek.  :)

Your projection length of 139 mm is well chosen value which suits for a large number of commonly used, knives. It works even with my Japanese Santoku knife. Modifications of the projection length are of course possible, but the most important initial decision has already been taken.

Jan

Elden

Jan,
   Thank you for posting your template and the other works you have done. Your pictures and instruction #3 make it plain to  align the tip instead of the belly of the knife with the template arc. That would have been a question, however, you made that clear. I have to admit that I have to look up knife terminology at times. In my thinking, "point" and "tip" mean the same thing. That is not so with knife terminology!
Elden

Jan

Thank you Elden, for pointing out my terminological error. I welcome your attention.  :)
I let TORMEK Handbook affect me, although it is not normative for knife terminology.

To maintain correctness, I will fix this error in the name of the topic as well as in the pdf file.

Jan

Elden

No Jan, you had it correct. It was me that had it in my memory incorrectly.
Elden

Jan

#6
Elden, the knife terminology is not unique.  >:(

In Wikipedia under the slogan "knife", I have found: "the point – the end of the knife used for piercing" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knife

In Oxford dictionaries I have found definition of "knifepoint" in American-English: "The pointed end of a knife". http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/american_english/knifepoint?q=knife-point

While, no exact match found for "knife-tip" in British & World English, and no exact match found for "knife-tip" in US English.

So, for the time being, I'll leave it as it is now.

Jan

P.S.: As it is written "The more words, the more vanity, and what is the advantage to man?".

mark1


Jan


Jan

#9
As I already told you, I like the Kenjig approach with an emphasis on minimizing measuring when setting knife for sharpening on Tormek.  :)

I made an 80 mm Kenjig for setting the stone-support distance and added the 83 mm distance for setting the honing wheel-support distance. Those two distances with Ken's projection length of 139 mm will ensure an edge angle 30 degrees, assuming 250 mm grinding stone and 220 mm honing wheel.



It is made of plywood, thickness 18 mm (3/4"), the groove has been routed.

Because the Kenjig sits reliably on the support, setting the distances is easy.





It is practical to have two Universal Supports.  ;)

Jan

Elden

Quote from: Jan on October 28, 2015, 11:32:24 PM
Elden, the knife terminology is not unique.  >:(

In Wikipedia under the slogan "knife", I have found: "the point – the end of the knife used for piercing" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knife

In Oxford dictionaries I have found definition of "knifepoint" in American-English: "The pointed end of a knife". http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/american_english/knifepoint?q=knife-point

While, no exact match found for "knife-tip" in British & World English, and no exact match found for "knife-tip" in US English.


Jan, check out the definition portion in this link.

http://www.jayfisher.com/Knife_Anatomy_Parts_Names_Definitions.htm

According to  it, the tip is the termination of the point (I use use termination to refrain from an exact quote). In "The Free Dictionary", the definition of tip is:
Quote1. The end of a pointed or projecting object.

Jan, you aren't the only one trying to improve his use of the English language! ;D
Elden

Jan

I suggest to wait whether the forum crystallizes a clear opinion on the correct terminology for knives.

Thanks for recognition, for me English improvement is a side benefit, and even a little fun.  :)

Jan


Jan

#12
Quote
Jan, check out the definition portion in this link.

http://www.jayfisher.com/Knife_Anatomy_Parts_Names_Definitions.htm

According to  it, the tip is the termination of the point (I use use termination to refrain from an exact quote).


Elden, this is a hard saying, I cannot listen to it!  :o

As someone who grew up within the framework of Euclidean geometry, I have to remind you that Euclid originally defined the point as "that which has no part". The geometric points do not have any length, area or volume. Point is meant to capture the notion of a unique location in 3D space.

It does not mean that the knife terminology can define it differently, but you will understand that it would be against common sense.  :)

Jan

Elden

   That is very interesting, Jan. You are knocking some of the dust off my mathematical archives. You are correct in that definition of point. However, welcome to the English language, the language of EXCEPTIONS. I am not saying you are incorrect, only that our language can be strange at times! Here, (I cannot speak for all English speaking places) we do not normally say the point of the finger but the tip of the finger. Yet, we point with our finger! In pointing, if only the tip of the finger was considered, it would be hard to figure out which direction was being indicated.  ;)
Elden

Ken S

Jan,

Your double ended "kenjig" (Shall we call it the "janjig"?) is very clever. Good job! This topic illustrates the power of a forum. When an idea is shared by interested parties, it improves. It is exciting! Keep up the good work. Incidentally, using the second end for getting the leather honing wheel for the same set up seems logical to me. Having one end for (example) fifteen degrees and the other end for twenty degrees would start to get more complicated and prone to error.

Eldon and Jan,

We definitely need standard (and more exact) definitions for parts of a knife. I would eventually like to see "chisel sharpening" type initial topics for all the sub forums. I think these should include good definitions for standard terms. That way would eliminate a lot of confusion.

Ken