1/4" Bevel Edge Chisels

[Ken S]

Herman, if I had put two and two together, I would have remembered that you recently repainted your Tormek housing.  Of course you would have removed the support bar sleeves. another senior moment......

Kenny, how interesting that your horizontal sleeves work fine (wheel turning away from the blade).  That would indicate the wheel, support bar and jig are working properly. Grepper has some good thoughts.  This is starting to sound like a Sherlock Holmes case, where when almost everything else is ruled out, whatever remains, no matter how improbably, is probably the culprit.

Kenny, I believe you will experience a rare learning situation from this.  I have experience this perhaps three times.  The time which stands out is when I was starting to cut mats for photographs. The presentation of a photograph should not call attention to itself.  Neither should it detract from the photograph itself. The photograph should be mounted and matted pristinely and with high precision, just like you want your chisels to be square.

Most mats do not meet this standard. After frustration with framing stores doing poor work, I purchased a C&H mat cutter.  At the time it cost as much as two Tormeks.  My results were disappointing.  After several months of frustration and troubleshooting, I devised a technique which allowed me to obtain quite precise results very efficiently. I have not seen that technique used anywhere else.  Apparently there has never been a framer married to a machinist; the technique involves simple machine shop layout.

When I reached that level of proficiency, I was amazed with how quickly related problems could be solved. I had broken through a learning plateau.  It's quite an experience, and sadly, I think it is very rare.  You will find great pleasure in it when you arrive at that knowledge point. You will be amazed with what you can accomplish with your Tormek.

That experience is a great thing to share with your students.  Once you have that kind of in depth understanding of something, you can transfer it to other problems. It is worth enduring all the frustrations you are experiencing now.

For a little comic relief, be sure and watch the video about the the actor and comedian who loves to fish on the Tormek website. It's a delightful combination of practical wisdom and life's humor, with some knife sharpening included.

fortune favors the brave,

Ken

[Rob]

checking that the surface of the stone is square to the side of the stone is not a valid test.  The true test is only if the surface of the stone is parallel to the usb AFTER truing.  Nothing references off the side of the stone and there is usually wobble or run out to some degree on all wheels.  This normally doesn't affect grinding so long as after truing the surface is parallel to the usb.

If you recall Kenny reported that AFTER TRUING and placing the usb against the wheel it was running out of parallel.  This means something else is afoot.

Also recall that Stig is personally in touch with him now so its all being managed.  I wouldn't worry about trying to fix it now, I'm sure Kenny will fill us in after he and Stig have completed their diagnostic.

[grepper]

Yup, Rob, you are right.  Kenny is in good hands and will get his issues figured out, and the side of the wheel is probably not the best reference. Good points.  Sure is a curiosity though, and a fun puzzle to speculate about.  Hard not to. .  Kenny, please let us know what was up when you get it figured out.

Uh, OH!  Off topic link!  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HaN8AFQnoA .  Ken, here is how I learned to cut mats.  Super simple, works perfectly every time and you don't even have to think!  One of those cool things that works because it has to.

[Ken S]

I have no doubt that Stig and Kenny will solve the problem and post the solution.  I do believe there is more to this series of posts than just a simple case of trouble.  The combination of thoughts on troubleshooting presented here may prove useful to others in similar circumstances. Developing diagnostic and troubleshooting skills is a valuable mental asset for many aspects of life. We can learn by working on related puzzles.

Well done video, Grepper.  If I had seen it during my initial struggles, I probably wouldn't have  worked so hard.  It's off topic, however, I would use spacers and rarely change the distance setting. I also don't have to use pencil marks or glue for double or triple mats.  I have expended a lot of thought and frustration in this quest, and would have gotten proficient with the method shown in the video much more quickly and painlessly.

Ken

[kennyk]

I've made contact with the UK distributor as well and sent him a video of me  sharpening a blade in the vertical 'normal' position. 
I'll share this picture with you guys as well.  this is a  shot of the blade against a square



I went back to horizontal and managed to correct the skew quite easily.

[Herman Trivilino]

If you recall Kenny reported that AFTER TRUING and placing the usb against the wheel it was running out of parallel.  This means something else is afoot.

In my last post I talked about the possibility of the grindstone axis not being parallel to the horizontal bar of the USB.  I now see that I didn't express that thought correctly.  It may be that the two are not parallel, but that they do lie in the same plane.  In Kenny's case if those mounting holes are not in the correct place, it may be that the grindstone axis and the horizontal bar don't lie in the same plane.  They are askew. 

[SharpenADullWitt]

I looked inside my Tormek with the grinding wheel removed.  The sleeves appear to be held onto the frame with nuts.  The largest metric wrenches own are 19mm, too small for the nuts. 

Do the sleeves fit into precisely sized holes or are the holes oversized to allow for some adjustment?  If Kenny's sleeves are out of alignment, that might be the problem.

Ken

http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=62.0

According to Jeff's post from 2004 (is the 2007 model different?), they have some play to one side. (and 27mm nuts)

At this point, I think the ball is out of our court.  I just hope what is found is posted, rather then leave threads without an answer, like the other one I found with the same/similar? issue from 2004: http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=57.0
This board is only a good resource when the solutions are here, not just problems.

[Rob]

I feel certain that after all this energy, Stig will do the honourable thing and post up the outcome.  It can only help other people and lighten his future load after all.

[Ken S]

Good morning, Kenny.  Any progress on "the Scottish front"?

Ken

[kennyk]

Hi.  A progress report so far.

I spoke with the UK Distributor last week who asked that I send a video clip of how I use the machine, which I've done.  Perhaps I went a bit overkill with setting up my Canon DSLR on a tripod with an external Sony Mic, but there you go...   


Anyway I'm currently waiting for a tested 'known good' unit to arrive from the UK distributor for me to try, which should arrive sometime next week.


But there's no real progress other than that;  the only way I can get a square blade is still to run back to front with the tool mounted in the SE-76 backwards at the front of the machine.

Running forwards I can sometimes get a curved blade because I'm fighting the inherent tendency to skew.

I'm sure that eventually we will get to the root of the issue.

The annoying thing is, I'm pleased with how quickly I can get a razor sharp edge, even with the state of some of the blades I've been sharpening.  Even a 1" chisel that had a 'bite' out of the edge in the middle.  I could have used that one to steady a nail for hammering, but it was done in around five minutes.

Running backwards I've noticed that there's a lot of fine strands of metal remain attached to bevel that don't come off until I hone the blades, but it doesn't seem to be much of an issue.  It's like a comb, but the metal is very fine and soft.

Truth be told I don't even bother polishing the whole bevel;  I can freehand hone a microbevel straight off the stone without regrading.   I suppose that's one advantage of doing a lot of blades in succession. 

I was very pleased with the sound I got from the Smoothing Plane (No 4) when I passed it over some Maple yesterday;  that gentle "sffffffffffft" that accompanies a nice thin (2 thou) shaving!   (Given the thickness of the blades being half that of the clifton blades I can't ask better than that on maple...)   

[Ken S]

Great job, Kenny.  You certainly would get the forum Marathon Man award, if we had one.

I used to polish the entire bevel all the way through the stones when I used oil stones.  The shiny bevels looked very nice, although I wore out three pairs of hands in the process.  Mirror polish on the entire bevel seems better suited for looking at ourselves than adding sharpness, especially for mass sharpening.

The Tormek is certainly sweet with removing nicks!

I don't think your Canon DSLR on tripod was overkill. Many years ago I purchased an offset router base and fence made by Pat Warner.  Pat put a label on the fence.  I photographed it with my 4x5 and sent him an 8x10 print.  The print was sharp enough to easily read Pat's label.  Pat replied that he was quite impressed with the print, but suggested the fence might work better if not put on backward.  oops..

Keep posting.

Ken

[kennyk]

Tried a new approach with one of the 2" plane blades today.  I drew a line on the back of the blade with my square and ground off the curved end using a bench grinder, before re-establishing the bevel on the T-7.  Just to try it.  I can't say if it was any faster but it saves a bit of constant checking  with a square.

[kennyk]

As I've been working through the pile of blades,  ( currently I still have a pile of roughly 60 blades to go...)  using the machine in my reverse configuration,  it has struck me that a revised version of the SE-76 specifically for this configuration would be a definite improvement. 
My reasoning is from mounting the chisel in towards the far side of the jig - as far as possible from the registration edge,  I realised that in this position the chisel was midway between the mounting holes for fitting to the USB.  To my mind this eliminates, or reduces the likelyhood of inducing a turning moment or cantilever effect on the jig.
Further, as the blade is lower down and almost horizontal, I find it more comfortable, and the third benefit is that I can accurately see where the grinding is taking place and adjust my grinding pressure focus.   If only there was a registration edge on the other side of the jig as well...  (hint hint!)   However using a square to set the blade in the SE-76 every time does reduce the number of skews I am getting -  occasionally the blade does move in the jig.  I think I prefer this configuration, at least at the moment.  I find peering over the machine a bit uncomfortable as well.

I'd be interested to know if anyone else has tried sharpening in this configuration and what their results are, compared to the normal method.

[Ken S]

Fascinating idea, Kenny.  Would you mind copy pasting your last post in a new topic?  The "1/4 inch chisel" is already the longest post on the forum.  I think your idea for modifying the SE-76 deserves its own topic.  It would also be easier to find using search.

I will try out your idea next time I sharpen a chisel.  I believe you may be onto something!

Good job.

Ken

[RobinW]

Some time ago I tried the same approach as Kenny, but I can't remember why I went that route.

I think one of the issues I experienced, was that the asymmetric span of jig movement caused the tool to come off the side of the wheel, so the tool cannot be used against the reference edge.

Apart from the suggestion of having two reference faces inside the jig, I assume there is some reason why it is currently shaped to the mounting bushes, both front and back faces should be properly machined and orthogonal to the inside reference edges.

If Tormek are interested in feedback and items which could be developed or re-designed - of which I have posted some - then Tormek should start a specific topic for such a purpose. Get some of this Forum users to test any updated jigs etc and get proper user feedback. It costs them nothing, but look at the interest and participation and customer loyalty which would result. On another forum, a supplier has lent one of their new tools to members of that forum. It is being passed round each interested member who signs up, and that member can use it for a few days, and then pass it on. The feedback and comments are very interesting.

When I have a bit of time I will post about thin wide blade issues - there's another story.

I await Kenny's next update.