Knife Angle Setter "Black Edition"

[Perra]

And it can be done with Tormek's new jig too. Use to set a preset projection length.
It simplifies and speeds up the process when you want the same angle on several knives in a row during sharpening. It is interesting that the jig can be used in several different ways, once you have learned the function and handling it is surprisingly quick to work with. And no computers, calipers or tables needed!

[Dan]

Anyone have any idea if or when the new Tormek knife jig will be available to buy?

Just for Perra.. Are you making your jig for sale to others??
It does seem just too complicated for me to make.
It would be useful for me (and maybe for others) to know.
 
Not sure yet if I really need to get one for myself. I only really use the Tormek for my own tools and knives and for some of my neighbours' knives. I am still getting to grips with trying to use the Calcapp from cbwx34. I am not sure I have it all worked out but it seems pretty straightforward.
In general, I am someone who finds it a lot easier to learn from a demo than a book! My brain just glazes over with all the maths based methods some people here use.

Danny

[Ken S]

Dan,

In case you might have overlooked this reply from the first page of this topic, here it is:

Great minds think alike 
 
Congratulations on a fine solution Perra, very impressive and detailed work.
We need to reveal in this forum that the Tormek innovation team has developed a similar invention based on the same principles as yours. The product is patented and closing in towards launch.
 
We reveal this only with the well meaning intention to prevent someone from investing time and money into a product unable to be put to market due to IP rights.
 
Thank you Perra for your profound engagement. We feel fortunate to have such dedicated users.
 
Regards
Samuel Stenhem
CEO Tormek.

I have no inside information as to when the new patented Tormek knife setting jig will be available for purchase. However, I will be surprised if the availability date is before this fall.

Like any other business, Tormek must protect its investment in research and development with patents. While we are waiting, we have several options. In this Covid era, Tormek has provided us with almost two dozen in depth instructional videos. These are outstanding learning tools, and are freely available at no cost.
One can go far using only the marker method.

I can appreciate your "glazed over" frustration with learning the math oriented programs. I have been there and have experienced those same frustrations. I started developing a method of automating set up for woodworking chisels and plane blades in 2010 using a slightly modified TTS-100. (I still use that method.) At the time, I was not sharpening knives.

When Dutchman posted his grinding angle research in 2014, I could see a great potential in knife setting. With this great potential, I also felt great frustration. My last training in math was in high school back in 1968, literally predating the Tormek. Even with Dutchman's well presented work as a guide, dusting off my math skills was quite laborious.  After much frustration, the process started to make sense. Dutchman's tables became the basis of my kenjig. While less sophisticated than today's computer based programs and adjustable jigs, I still believe the kenjig is the fastest, most easily repeatable method for setting knife angles.

My advice to you is that you can do anything which I can do. Give yourself some quiet time for focused learning. Be prepared to get through a learning curve. Simplify. I generally sharpen all my knives at 15 degrees per side. I can easily modify this if I want; however, 15° has served me well.

Spend some quiet study time learning Calcapp. We presently have much easier learning tools that I had available years ago. CB has done an excellent job of creating a user friendly program.

Once you understand the theory of setting bevel angles, you will be amazed with how quickly you grasp new ideas.

Keep us posted.

Ken

[cbwx34]

...I am still getting to grips with trying to use the Calcapp from cbwx34. I am not sure I have it all worked out but it seems pretty straightforward.
In general, I am someone who finds it a lot easier to learn from a demo than a book! My brain just glazes over with all the maths based methods some people here use.

Danny

Don't worry about "the math".  Think of it as little more than measuring to build something, and Calcapp is really nothing more than a simple calculator.. not a computer program that needs study.  The "math" was overemphasized in the early days... mainly cause we were just figuring all this out.  (And accuracy was way over stressed.)

For a knife you can start with the "Original" calculator in Calcapp.  (Everything else is pretty much a spinoff from that.)  And don't worry about "decimal point" accuracy.  Measuring to the nearest mm with a ruler is more than sufficient. A quick wheel measurement (you can even use the scale printed on the Tormek), measurement from the front of the Blade Stop to the knife edge (Projection Distance), and decide what angle you want to sharpen at, is all that's needed. 

I think the only problem some have had is measuring to the wheel following an imaginary line... the idea with a rubber band is probably the best way to see what's needed...

 You cannot view this attachment.
(Sorry, can't find the reference link right now for credit.)

... and after a few tries, this guide can be eliminated. (Consistency is key.)

[Dan]

Thanks for the replies.
I am a professional craftsman and used to making/creating things with lots of measuring etc. No worries..

Me and Maths divorced along time ago. Just after I was introduced to calculus when at the time my main interest was fashioning things out of wood 

Using the calcapp for my chisels and planes was excellent - simple and quick after a little working out. Knives, I am working on!
Thanks again,
Danny

[tgbto]

I agree 100% with @cbwx34 : calcapp and the like (including Ducthman's tables) don't require any specific knowledge aside from understanding what to enter in what input box. They are even simpler (and more accurate) if you use USB to wheel measurements.

As for the worth of the Tormek patent on their future tool, we'll have to see how innovative it is. I think Perra's way of including wheel diameter measurement in their tool is a novelty, but resting the tool on the stone then adjusting the USB to set the sharpening angle might not be where innovation lies.

[CopperFish]

Anyone hear anything new on a Tormek version of this? Will they be releasing it?

[Ken S]

I do not know when the new Tormek angle setting jig will be for sale. I do know that working prototypes had been made before the end of August 2023 when I visited Tormek. Part of my visit included a meeting of the Design Team. (Per was also part of that meeting.

We presently have all the necessary tools to set all of the functions with more than enough accuracy. Being almost fifty years away from my high school math classes when Dutchman introduced his tables, With considerable effort, I was able to understand them and become fluent with them. With some focused study, CB's Calcapp in within understandability by any of us. It requires just a reasonable effort more than spoon feeding. Having seen the new jig demonstrated, I will be switching to it for at least most of my work. However, I can see where some will prefer staying with programs like Calcapp instead of purchasing a the new angle setting jig. Both paths will get the job done.

Ken

[Dutchman]

Anyone hear anything new on a Tormek version of this? Will they be releasing it?

At the invitation of Håkan Persson, Tormek's CEO at the time, I tested the 'new' anglesetter. See the report at https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?msg=38191
My verdict was not overwhelmingly positive. Furthermore, Håkan has since stepped down as CEO and has probably lost his interest in it.
In addition, and this is probably the most important thing, Perra has created a better design as presented in this thread.
That's why I think it's more likely. that Perra's design will be adopted and produced.

[Perra]

I can confirm, as Ken says, that I have been in contact with Tormek and presented my tool and my thoughts on how to implement some of my theories into their own tuning tool. It is a work in progress and my understanding is that there may be a release in the near future.
I think Tormek's variant, with some improvements, could be a better option than my tool and I never had any intention of starting any series production of my tool anyway. Call myself a hobby inventor! And am happy when I have succeeded with an idea, that's enough for me!
As for my "Black Edition", I have no production of it and have no plans to produce any more, right now! Instead I have a new small project going on.  We'll see if I can show it off later.

[Dan]

New jig is officially out. (thanks to John Hancock Sr for the heads-up)

https://tormek.com/en/products/accessories/ks-123-knife-angle-setter

appears to be pretty much the same as Dutchman's review picture earlier in this thread with some very minor alterations.

Danny

[AXEMAN.ca]

The KS-123 is available in Canada at AXEMAN.ca within a few days. 

[Sharpaholic]

First post here...so take it easy on me. I have been collecting knives since I was 12...now 59. I have been a guided sharpener fan for a while and had been doing most my sharpening on a wicked edge. Well the bug bit me and I ordered a Tormek T8 and I am just now setting it up.
I have always been a gadget guy and found this new gadget online today and ordered one.
I will be hanging out trying to absorb it all in from all of you.
Looking forward to the Tormek live show in about 13 hours.

[Ken S]

Per,

I look foreard to seeing your upcoming ideas! It was a pleasure meeting you in Sweden. The combination of a sharpener and an industrial engineer/inventor is a much valued part of this forum!

Ken