T4 or T7?

[Herman Trivilino]

Together, those added up to half the difference in price between the T4 and T7.  That only left about a difference of $130.  Further, when I turned on the T4 (never sharpened anything on it though), it seemed alright, but not well balanced (maybe that was just the copy that I had).  Then I started to rationalize that the wheel on the T7 was significantly bigger (and that would also leave a slightly less hollow grind, making the edge a bit stronger), had a better, stronger motor, and also had the longer catch tray (I have a DeWalt 12" planer, and figured that I could sharpen those blades in the future, as well as long kitchen knives) as well as a longer guarantee.

So you returned the T4 and bought a T7?

Your experience is shared by many others, and that's the value in the marketing strategy of having a less-than-optimal model at a price that's a bit more than half. Instead of rationalizing the value of the more expensive model all in one step, the customer can "step" into it by first rationalizing the value of the less expensive model.

[elliowb]

Yes, I did return the T4 and go with the T7.  I think I see what you're saying Herman: the leap all the way up to $665, without having first purchased and returned the $399 machine, would certainly have been more difficult.  That's an interesting marketing strategy, it seems to have worked in my case.

Certainly, I can see that someone who only needs to sharpen knives might be better served by the T4.  However, for the average woodworker, even non-pros, I think it's a tougher decision.

One thing that I've learned as I've gotten older (and as my income has increased) is that I'm usually much happier to have purchased the higher quality item.  This appears to apply for the Tormek as well.

[Ken S]

Bill,

I'm sorry you have had a bad experience with purchasing a Tormek. I have had the chance to compare the T4 and T7 leisurely in my shop. My T7 has served me well for five years. I also happen to like the new T4. although I have not had the opportunity to use it much.

I believe the T4 is the victim of overworked theory and poor marketing. Since hollow grinding was (and probably still is) a longtime traditional method generally done with six inch grinders (occasionally eight inch), I think the hollow grind = weak edge thing is overblown. Adding three to five degrees to the bevel angle easily compensates for any possible weakness. i also think the "30 minute duty" thing is more theory than a real world handicap. In my case, the operator would tire before the motor.

The marketing strategy of "not paying for unused jigs" seems to me like a smoke screen to meet a price point for sales. I believe there are some very valid reasons to choose the T4. Price is NOT one of them. I would think more of the marketing strategy if a discount was given on accessories purchased with the unit.

Unfortunately, Tormek machines are often poorly shown at dealers. I was at a dealer last weekend. The T7 was sitting on the bottom shelf and the two T4s were still in the box in the bottom shelf. The jigs were on middle shelves. Not very high marks for marketing.

I believe the quality of the T4 and T7 is equal, factoring in their intended purposes. Almost all of the parts are the same. The thickness of the EZYLock shafts is identical. Comparing the two Tormek models to table saws, I would compare the T4 to a Delta Contractor's Saw and the T7 to a Unisaw. Both are good solid tools, but which would you prefer to bring to a job site?

I am convinced that the primary factor in deciding which Tormek to purchase should be where it is used. If one has the luxury of a large shop and a sharpening station, by all means, the logical choice is the T7. The New Yankee Workshop episode where Jeff Farris demonstrated the Tormek for Norm Abram and Norm built a sharpening work station for it is a perfect illustration of a T7 environment.

However, for a small shop, one which may have to be moved from time to time, or a mobile sharpening service, I think the T4 might be just the ticket. A person turning pens or small things on a mini or midi lathe would hardly require or want the book and weight of a thirty pound model Tormek.

Your situation illustrates the need for better marketing and sales.

I hope you enjoy your T7. Just like in carpentry, some practicing of the fundamentals will help..........

Good luck and do keep us posted.

Ken

[elliowb]

Ken,

More informed salespeople would have helped and a display or the chance to try out the machines side-by-side would certainly have helped as well.  At my local store neither model were on display and they only had one of each model in the box.  Luckily, they accepted the T4 return without any hassle whatsoever.  At least I didn't have to deal with shipping (I just moved from an area where the nearest woodworkers shop was at least 4 hours away, so having a shop that is only 15 minutes away is great).

I agree that the difference in the hollow grind is small, though I was speaking at the margin.  I originally learned to sharpen my tools using a bench grinder and stones, so the ability to quickly touch up the edge with a stone kept the work moving and was something that I valued.  At that time, having a set of mortising chisels with a larger angle did take care of the weaker edge caused by hollow grind.  Certainly with sharpeners like the Tormek, it may be less important.

I've already sharpened my set of Marples chisels, a bench plane blade, a rabbit plane blade, a couple of kitchen knives, and an old Buck knife.  I'm very happy with the outcome and how little time was required.  A great addition to my little workshop.  I now look forward to sharpening rather than dreading it.

[Ken S]

Good job, Bill.

It would have been fun to have had a cup of coffee with you and enjoyed your pleasure at returning your tools to active duty status. I had a set of Marples chisels for years. I gave them to my nephew to help get him started. Hold on to yours; the Irwin "Marples chisels" aren't the same.

Keep on sharpening and keep on posting.

Ken

ps I've had several carpenter friends over the years. They always did good work, however, I suspect your newly sharpened chisels would put you toward the head of the pack!

[Herman Trivilino]

the leap all the way up to $665, without having first purchased and returned the $399 machine, would certainly have been more difficult. 

Many potential customers are turned off by the price of an item. That statement is so obvious that it goes without saying, but it lies at the heart of marketing strategy. I was turned off by the price of a Tormek for many years. I wanted one, but had difficulty rationalizing the price.

[Ken S]

Good point, Herman.

I just purchased several inexpensive "sharpening chisels". I want to increase my sharpening "flight time", and did not want to wear out either my grandfather's Stanley 750 chisels or the new Lie-Nielsens I have been gradually acquiring.

The price of the new chisels was right, but I am definitely not looking forward to the laborious task of flattening and polishing the backs which should have been done at the factory. In that regard, fine chisels and Tormeks are a bargain!

It amazes me how people pay enormous amounts for vehicles which will be replaced or worn out within a few years and think fine tools like the Tormek are too expensive.

Ken

[elliowb]

Good job, Bill.

It would have been fun to have had a cup of coffee with you and enjoyed your pleasure at returning your tools to active duty status. I had a set of Marples chisels for years. I gave them to my nephew to help get him started. Hold on to yours; the Irwin "Marples chisels" aren't the same.

Keep on sharpening and keep on posting.

Ken

ps I've had several carpenter friends over the years. They always did good work, however, I suspect your newly sharpened chisels would put you toward the head of the pack!

Thanks Ken,

I had a rare opportunity back in the 80s to apprentice as a ships carpenter and sparmaker on the Elissa Project down in Galveston TX.  I learned most of my fine carpentry skills then.  However, I also learned a great deal from my dad; he pretty much single handedly built the two houses we lived in when I was growing up.

I definitely prize the Marples.  They are the old English steel, boxwood handled firmer chisels.  Works of art in themselves.  My winter project is to repair the bottom of the 16 foot wooden dory-skiff that I built about 30 years ago.  So, I'll need good sharp tools to do a proper job.

the leap all the way up to $665, without having first purchased and returned the $399 machine, would certainly have been more difficult. 

Many potential customers are turned off by the price of an item. That statement is so obvious that it goes without saying, but it lies at the heart of marketing strategy. I was turned off by the price of a Tormek for many years. I wanted one, but had difficulty rationalizing the price.

Herman, I think that part of it is that we've been habituated to cheap products through, for lack of a better term, the 'Walmartization' of the product market.  I teach finance now and I'm continually amazed at how frequently consumers go for the cheap up front cost and fail to factor in the total cost of a product or service (or more frequent replacement).

--  Bill

[Ken S]

Bill,

What a great opportunity, working as a ship's carpenter and sparmaker! I'm jealous. My opportunity like that got away. In 1970 I was working at the Hurricane Island Outward Bound School ten miles off the Maine coast. A recruiter visited the school looking for teachers for a square rigger based school. Alas, I was two years away from my degree. It would have been fun. No complaints; Outward Bound was a great adventure in itself. Sadly, the twenty six day survival course (designed for the Welsh merchant marine during WWII) has morphed into week long "adventure" classes.

Keep those prized classic Marples chisels sharp.

Chris Schwarz recently posted an interesting blog entry about chisels. His recommendation for those wanting to purchase a first set of chisels is to buy one premium half inch chisel. He believes that one size will probably suffice for many people. He recommends adding a second size only when necessary for the job at hand. This wisdom also reflects my father's life. I still have the half inch chisel which was the only chisel he owned for much of his life. He kept it sharp and used it often. Sadly, many will never experience what a quality tool can be.

Chris' blog and writing is time well spent.

Ken

[Herman Trivilino]

People do tend to believe that the price at Walmart (and other big box stores) is the price we "ought" to pay for things. That's justified for exact-match items because profits and labor costs are trimmed to the bone at big box stores. There are two other categories of products, though, items that are of a higher or lower quality, and items that can't be bought at big box stores. Tormeks and luxury cars are an example of the latter. The former, though, is where the quality factor comes in to play. Many people are just not willing to pay that higher price for better quality, and so end up throwing lots of stuff away as it wears out. That's a foolish practice especially when it comes to items that are built into our houses such as cabinets, flooring, and counter tops.

[jbaker]

Whilst Im sure everyone here knows more than I do. I brought a 2000 and have loved it for many years, both for wood-turning tools and I love cooking and have a range of decent chef knives.
It is now getting a little tired and deserves a rest. If it was a horse, I' consider it a family friend and put it out to grass.

Something which seems to be dismissed I feel out of hand in the comments. PRICE.

A T4 with some bits, which I don't actually need but it comes with them normal price all in, paste , oil the lot is around 400GBP.

A T7 with a special offer and not including anything much, is the best price I found 799 GBP.

Hence price is very significant.  I have a decent job and can pay but I also look at what my needs are.
Almost in the business sense of cost vs benefit.

Whilst in my wife's opinion, I spend too long in the workshop, it is not my job. Sometimes someone asks me to make something and they pay me for it.  That wont pay the bills.

The 2000 still works and has never failed.  This most defiantly brings the T4 back into the picture.

What justifies the extra near double price ? And do I need it ?

I decided , It would be difficult enough to explain spending 400 on a device to replace a device which still works. The real cost is 400 + lots of chocolate and flowers plus a nice meal out. Call it 500.
Or 800 for the same reason, not sure if I could afford the choc, flowers and night out ........

When to her, why the heck are you buying anything ?  Good question .....
Look at this one , it is the same, does the same and only costs 120.........   Explain .......

I'd love to hear how you explain that to a rational woman with no feeling for engineering, she does have an excellent business head ...... and does not accept its too difficult to explain, you would not understand and she does not take prisoners when it comes to anyone trying to BS her or spending our income?

She does have a point ...

To preserve my marriage, I went for the T4.  Thus avoiding an expensive diverse ( and loss of home and workshop ) . Hence it comes back to the cost

Please take this with a touch of humour, the questions are real enough.
Best wishes.

[Ken S]

Welcome to the forum. You are joining us as an experienced Tormek user. You wrote:


"I brought a 2000 and have loved it for many years, both for wood-turning tools and I love cooking and have a range of decent chef knives.
It is now getting a little tired and deserves a rest. If it was a horse, I' consider it a family friend and put it out to grass."

That could cover numerous conditions. Would you please elaborate?
Some situations, like a burned out motor (a very rare condition), probably warrant complete replacement. I would email Tormek support (support@tormek.se) and seek their experience before making a decision on this. As mentioned in one of the online classes, motor trouble is usually just a defective condenser, not a big deal.

Two items which should be upgraded are the truing tool and the support bar. The revised version of the TT-50 is definitely a major improvement over the older pre TT-50 model. The most recent US-105 universal support bar with microadjust used in conjunction with the TT-50 is a must to keep your grinding wheel true. If your stone grader is worn smooth, a replacement would be beneficial. (The US-103 included with your T4 has microadjust. You won't need to purchase another support bar. The same with your T4's stone grader.)

If you have maintained your mainshaft bushings and your shaft is not rusty, you can get by without replacing it. Unless your grinding wheel is worn to less than 200mm, you don't need to replace it.

Personally, I would not replace a working 2000.

Why the price difference between the T4 and the T7/8? There are several valid reasons:
The T7/8 has a heavier duty 200 watt motor.
The T7/8 has a larger grinding wheel. (Compare replacement wheel costs.)
The T7/8 includes a TT-50 truing tool and an SE-77 square edge jig.

These are the principal differences. Do you "need" these things? I would answer, "it depends". The T4 uses all the Tormek jigs, as does the T7/8. Some situations favor the larger models. If you realistically plan to sharpen all day often, you should favor the larger models.(incidentally, I include the 2000 with the larger models.)
I think of Tormeks like vehicles. A four cylinder SUV is quite sufficient for my needs and desires. If I felt I needed a large V8 and a larger vehicle, I would probably want a T8 Tormek. I believe you will find your T4 very adequate for your needs.

Keep us posted.

Ken