Tormek Compound or Venev Diamond?

[joe103]

"Apologies if I missed it:  are you honing on the side opposite the burr first?"
Yes. Both Tormek and Vadim stress that, so that's how I do it.

[Ken S]

It is easy to lose sight of the total picture of a product by focusing only on one aspect of it.

For example, Tormek PA-70. Over the years, I have heard it described with several grit ratings, including "we don't know". I have concluded that it defies grit measurement, which is not necessarily bad. As the compound is used, like garnet sandpaper, the grains break down and become finer. In a sense, this makes PA-70 a multigrit compound, unlike single grit diamond compounds. While the harder diamond grains may be superior for supersteels, PA-70 may have advantages for carbon steel. Unlike RAM in Apple computers, adding diamond compound at a later date is simply a matter of purchasing an additional leather wheel and diamond compound. This covers the "what if I eventually get a supersteel knife?" possibility.

What about using an SB coarse and an SG graded fine? While this method has some pros, it comes with an additional $200 cost and changing wheels. I have not used my SB enough to have a good sense of how effective a developed opinion of how effective the stone grader is with it. Based on Wootz' studies, I believe using inexpensive diamond plates is an effective grading option. No extra wheel cost; no changing wheels or need to reset for different wheel diameters.

Ken

[BPalv]

Update:
Regarding my BESS scores, I went back to Vadim's book and realized that I'd missed something. At the beginning of the Deburring chapter, he states that positive burr steels need to be honed higher than the edge angle. Specifically 2 degrees higher for mainstream steels. Then later in the chapter where he discusses his "differential honing", he states that his FIRST pass is at exactly the edge angle, THEN he goes to the higher angle. When I did that I suddenly started getting 70 to 90 BESS scores.
But hey, sharpness is only part of it. I've had a lot of fun working on my technique and getting the feel of this machine. Things like getting straight, even, and uniform bevels I've really focused on. How much pressure to use, both grinding and honing. Truing and grading the wheels, when to apply compound to the leather wheel, etc. I bought the SB-250 black wheel when I bought the Tormek. I've kept it graded coarse, and I switch to the SG-250 which I keep graded fine (most of the time). My intent is to minimize wear on the wheels by not grading back and forth. I bought diamond plates for grading the wheels, and they work great. Since both wheels are new, there isn't a significant difference in size (yet). I can go from the SB-250 to the SG-250 with no issues.
At the height of my frustration with my BESS scores, I ordered another leather wheel and the chromium oxide kit from Slipakniven. I thought going from the Tormek 3 micron abrasive to the .5 micron chromium oxide with .25 micron diamond abrasive would help with my sharpness scores, but it was my technique all along. Ah well, another honing wheel isn't a bad thing.
I have no intention of buying any other wheels, like CBN or diamond, yet. There's still a LOT of capability to squeeze out of the SG-250 and SB-250, I have a lot to learn yet, and I'm having a lot of fun along the way. Now if I can get my hands on more knives to sharpen...

Joe,
Well Joe, Looks like you're headed down the super sharp path.  I started this journey a few years ago.  For the record, I read Vadim stated that the Tormek grit was 3 to 6 microns and as Ken stated the grit breaks into smaller pieces as you use it.  I have tried a small truck load of other diamond grits but none perform as Tormek's for the first pass on the hone except maybe Zam or Autosol.  Diamond refine and polish well, but to start Tormek paste gets the nod IMHO.
As far as honing... you are correct, the slightest variation on technique will create a sub 100 score or hair whittling edge.  I use a slow speed grinder with leather belts and  various honing compounds.  Recently I found that after running the blade on the Tormek wheel at the exact edge angle followed by the 1x30 to knock off the rest of the burr, will quickly give me 100 or below.  The angle is critical of course.
I just got my frontal vertical base made for my buffer with slotted paper wheels. I have 6 micron diamond paste on one, chromium oxide and .25 diamonds on the other.  As of yet I cannot obtain Wootz's results as of yet.  I suspect you cannot shortcut Wootz's process of honing with progressively smaller particles and hope to achieve his results.  The other factor which I think is even more critical than grit is the angles set during these process.  If your measurements are off the tiniest bit I don't think you will see the results you hope to achieve.
Soooo, occasionally stropping with the belt following the wheel or just the belt I usually can get decent steel to 100 or below or very close to 100.  Sometimes I will hit 70 to 50 but I think that is as much luck as technique as it is so challenging to achieve.  The angle is so precise it's tough to duplicate while free handing the knife.
The last thing I will mention is that after honing and standing in front of the bench grinder, if my work area is well lit, when I am holding the knife edge next to the belt, I can see the shiny metal from the grind.  If I rotate the edge closer to the belt I can see the shiny surface of the grind disappear, that's the angle you want to strop.  I find a white towel under the belt on the grinder makes seeing that edge much easier.

Good luck on your journey... if you choose to continue down this rabbit hole you will need to sell a house and a couple cars.  It can be far more expensive than it's worth.  Even if you do achieve sub 100 it only stays there till someone uses the knife.
Al

[joe103]

Well, I got my leather honing wheel and chromium oxide kit. Quality of the leather wheel is excellent, but the chromium oxide kit was worthless. It consisted of a small amount of chromium oxide powder, a small bottle of linseed oil, and a small amount of. 25 micron diamond paste. I mixed per the instructions, applied it and let it sit overnight. Next day was a little tacky, but used it anyway. When I used it, the knife smoothed out the surface to a shiny finish. Next day it dried more and became a hard, glossy finish that was flaking off on the edges in a few places. After doing a couple knives, I noticed that there wasn't the slightest difference in polish on the bevel, and not one shred of swarf discoloration was on the wheel. I even grabbed one of the cheap kitchen knives I had and held the side of the knife against the wheel for two minutes while running it, and there wasn't the slightest detectable polish on the knife or swarf on the wheel. It's like a green plastic coating with no abrasive qualities whatsoever.
I'm going to sand off the wheel and get some more chromium oxide and diamond paste, only I'm going to mix it with paraffin this time and try again. I have some Venev 2 micron wax, but that's too close to the Tormek compound in abrasive size, and it seems redundant to me.
Has anyone else run into this issue with chromium oxide and linseed oil?