Hello knife people

[Herman Trivilino]

Please note:   I have not tried this approach with knives.   It may or may not be the best. 

I have used a dry grinder (free hand) to shape a knife that's had its tip broken off. It works well but you do need to be careful and keep dipping it in water to avoid getting it too hot. That will ruin the knife in the sense that you will never be able to maintain an edge on the tip. This is especially important with things like a small pocket knife where the tip is used a lot. That is usually the part of the edge that dulls first on my pocket knives.

[Ken S]

In this video, Our own Steve Bottorff demonstrates how to repair a broken knife tip with a Tormek. Stronger measures might seem necessary for a major repair, however, I think the Tormek with an SG grinding wheel should handle most broken tips.

Ken

[cbwx34]

In this video, Our own Steve Bottorff demonstrates how to repair a broken knife tip with a Tormek. Stronger measures might seem necessary for a major repair, however, I think the Tormek with an SG grinding wheel should handle most broken tips.

Ken

This video???

https://youtu.be/xYrlJizVGbQ

Please note:   I have not tried this approach with knives.   It may or may not be the best. 

I have used a dry grinder (free hand) to shape a knife that's had its tip broken off. It works well but you do need to be careful and keep dipping it in water to avoid getting it too hot. That will ruin the knife in the sense that you will never be able to maintain an edge on the tip. This is especially important with things like a small pocket knife where the tip is used a lot. That is usually the part of the edge that dulls first on my pocket knives.

I would offer that you're the exception to the rule.  Knives and "high speed grinders" typically don't mix.

The Tormek does a good job on tip repairs, reprofiles, etc.  For example, I started to remake a "safety" knife with another (manual) sharpener, but quickly switched to the Tormek to do the job...



... with the standard (SG) wheel.  One tip (pun intended) to using the Tormek is the ability to keep the knife on the stone vs. the quick passes followed by cooling needed on the grinder... you can get quite a bit done in a reasonable amount of time.  Common broken tips, chips in the edge, etc. can easily be done on the Tormek.

[Ken S]

Yes, that's the video. I did the copy and forgot the paste. Oops.....

My suggestion would be to become skilled with things like tip repairs with the standard SE grinding wheel. At that point, if the grinding time still seems too long, consider a CBN wheel, SB, or a dry grinder. You must decide if the time you realistically save is worth the extra equipment cost.

Ken

[wootz]

...
One thing I noticed was that I had a hard time raising the burr with the finer gritt. I prepared the stone coarse with the grader and the burr came almost instantly. After raising the burr on one side I flipped the blade. After getting the buur on both side I gave it a couple VERY light passes on both sides so that I couldn`t feel the burr anymore. Then I used the honing wheel. Now after using the honing wheel it was sharp but after I gave it a few strops on my stropping paddle with very fine compound the knife really took off and it got hair popping sharp.
..

I am a little surprised no one have told you yet to change the parts I've highlighted in red, before they turned into a habit.

Do not aim to raise a burr on one side first - in doing so you will, first, overgrind and concave the middle portion of the blade under the clamp, and second, waste the life of your blade by grinding away too much steel.
Alternate sides with each pass. On a finely graded wheel maybe with each 2 passes.

Do not aim to raise a burr all along the edge in one go - your wheel is not a bench stone. The burr first forms in the clamped portion of the edge, then at the tip portion, and finally at the heel. As soon as you feel the burr anywhere on the edge, stop grinding that segment, and grind only the segments falling behind - alternating sides!
When you get all portions of the edge done, do one long bolster-to-tip pass on each side to even up.

"After getting the buur on both side I gave it a couple VERY light passes on both sides so that I couldn`t feel the burr anymore. "
This way you deform the straight line of the edge you've got under the burr, doing it no good - the burr shouldn't bother you, it is dealt with by honing.
Tormek honing paste is omnipotent on leather, covering all grits of your SG wheel - you can go to honing straight after the coarse 220 grit wheel, and still deburr completely, getting a very sharp toothy edge - not good enough for chisels, but OK for kitchen knives.

[cbwx34]

...
One thing I noticed was that I had a hard time raising the burr with the finer gritt. I prepared the stone coarse with the grader and the burr came almost instantly. After raising the burr on one side I flipped the blade. After getting the buur on both side I gave it a couple VERY light passes on both sides so that I couldn`t feel the burr anymore. Then I used the honing wheel. Now after using the honing wheel it was sharp but after I gave it a few strops on my stropping paddle with very fine compound the knife really took off and it got hair popping sharp.
..

I am a little surprised no one have told you yet to change the parts I've highlighted in red, before they turned into a habit.

Do not aim to raise a burr on one side first - in doing so you will, first, overgrind and concave the middle portion of the blade under the clamp, and second, waste the life of your blade by grinding away too much steel.
Alternate sides with each pass. On a finely graded wheel maybe with each 2 passes.

Do not aim to raise a burr all along the edge in one go - your wheel is not a bench stone. The burr first forms in the clamped portion of the edge, then at the tip portion, and finally at the heel. As soon as you feel the burr anywhere on the edge, stop grinding that segment, and grind only the segments falling behind - alternating sides!
When you get all portions of the edge done, do one long bolster-to-tip pass on each side to even up.

"After getting the buur on both side I gave it a couple VERY light passes on both sides so that I couldn`t feel the burr anymore. "
This way you deform the straight line of the edge you've got under the burr, doing it no good - the burr shouldn't bother you, it is dealt with by honing.
Tormek honing paste is omnipotent on leather, covering all grits of your SG wheel - you can go to honing straight after the coarse 220 grit wheel, and still deburr completely, getting a very sharp toothy edge.

I know I read your thread on the subject of concaving the middle of the blade... might be worth a read at this point.... Middle Overgrinding Problem... to better understand your post.

Raising a burr on one side, then switching sides, is a tried and true technique.  In most cases, the grind starts at the shoulder and moves to the edge, so there's little chance of removing too much metal, (or pushing the edge "off center", which some think is possible).  If it's a major job, I'll occasionally switch sides, just to insure that things are staying even, but you'd have to elaborate a bit for me to understand how this grinds away too much steel.  (An exception being if the edge is super dull or was repaired leaving the edge "flat", then you have to pay attention not to off center the edge, or overgrind one side).

As for raising a burr "all along the edge in one go"... that might just be how the concept is interpreted, but your description is accurate... you do raise a burr all along the entire edge, but some areas might need a little more work than others.  I also think this eliminates the concave issue described in the other thread. I think constantly alternating sides might make it more difficult to detect when a burr is created... you might have to adopt a different technique (marker method, magnification, visual inspection, etc.)... (unless I'm misunderstanding something here).

Finally, all I can say is, I adopted reducing or removing the burr prior to honing a long time ago, and my edges improved noticeably, both in initial sharpness, and longevity.  I'm a firm believer in this.  Honing for me is to further refine the edge, and remove any remaining burr that didn't get removed using the technique tomerus described.  I don't leave the burr for the hone.  You're probably the first I've ever heard say that it will, "deform the straight line of the edge....", so again, you'd have to elaborate.

[wootz]

What you say, my friend, I read as an extrapolation of a bench stone experience onto a rotary wheel - the wheel works little differently.
On a bench stone I would also get rid of the burr before moving to a strop, as everyone else, but with the rotary wheel you can't get an even grind all along the edge that is already at about 2 micron apex width in the area adjacent to the burr - try to visualise what's happening to an edge like that when you repeatedly drag it across a rotating wheel which even finely graded has 10-15 micron grains, flipping over and over.
It probably benefits to finish with a very light SINGLE pass on the side with the burr - remnants of the burr will still be there though - but not by "a couple VERY light passes on both sides..."

A raised burr is a breaking point in any sharpening session, because the edge apex next to the burr is at 1-2 micron width, no matter what grit.
It is a very delicate length of steel which is easy to deform by grinding further - stop here, and change to a finer wheel or straight to the leather wheel. Because from this point on, it is too easy to dull the edge apex by too much diligence. You physically can not refine an edge with the burr by continuing on the same grit that has raised that burr, and on a rotating wheel you can only worsen it.

Extrapolating my bench stone experience onto a wheel, I kept raising a burr on one side first, before flipping to the other, till realised all the wrongs this technique brings with it. Steve Bottoroff recommends flipping over with each pass - but do I really have make an authority call to be heard? You grind away more steel off your blade using this approach for exactly the same reason why you can not raise a burr simultaneously all along the edge - where in a straight edge knife, sheepsfoot etc you get a concavity from overgrinding the middle, in all other edges you waste metal from the same overgrinding while raising a burr on one side first.

I've been told I may sound mentorish when I try to put things black-and-white clear, apologies if I do, it's not my intention.

[tomerus]

So Tormek friends.. a little update and of course some new questions. Hope y`all don`t mind.

As I gain more confidence the bevels get more smoother and better looking overall. That part is going okay and it improves with every knife thankfully.
Now today I got a bit confused. I sharpened a chef knife (cheap) and got it razorsharp. Went on to the next knife. Did all the steps looked beautiful (edge wise) tried it on a piece of paper and it couldn`t cut anything.. not even butter.(note: I sharpened this knife before and made it dull for resharpening) I figured out I used the Angel Master wrongly. Probably went from a steeper angle to a wider angle so I need to focus on the angle master more.

Some other thing that I thought was weird (most likely to my misunderstanding or wrongfully using the machine) I noticed when skipping the honing wheel and went straight for my stropping paddle with very fine compound the knife was MUCH sharper. So I think I use the honing wheel wrong perhaps. Used a bit extra oil AFTER I put on the Tormek compound because it looked so dry. Awfull thing to do I read in other topics. So later on I thought wait a minute what if I put a bit of extra fine compound on the honing wheel (same as I use on my leather paddle) results got a bit better but I think I now made all the mistakes one can make with a honing wheel and have to buy a new one. Well.. first stone and honing wheel I offer to the learning process than 

Below some pics of my progress on the Tormek

[wootz]

You can mix your fine stropping compound with the Tormek honing paste, no problem.
It's your technique rather than the leather wheel - you must be rounding the edge.
Try the following:

Remove the stone wheel.
Hold the side of the blade, edge up, at 3 or 2 o'clock on the honing wheel (instead of 12), about half an inch (1cm) from the edge, stand just above and stare straight down into the gap between the edge and the leather wheel. Bring the edge to the leather slowly until the exact point where the gap disappears, until the edge just barely touches the leather. STOP!
Do a slow pass across the leather wheel.
Do no more than 4 passes alternating sides, often less is all needed.

[Ken S]

Wootz,

Do not apologize for sounding mentorish. As an experienced and innovative professional sharpener who has chosen to share his expertise through teaching, I would be disappointed if you did not sound mentorish. Keep up the good work!

Ken

[cbwx34]

What you say, my friend, I read as an extrapolation of a bench stone experience onto a rotary wheel - the wheel works little differently.
On a bench stone I would also get rid of the burr before moving to a strop, as everyone else, but with the rotary wheel you can't get an even grind all along the edge that is already at about 2 micron apex width in the area adjacent to the burr - try to visualise what's happening to an edge like that when you repeatedly drag it across a rotating wheel which even finely graded has 10-15 micron grains, flipping over and over.
It probably benefits to finish with a very light SINGLE pass on the side with the burr - remnants of the burr will still be there though - but not by "a couple VERY light passes on both sides..."

A raised burr is a breaking point in any sharpening session, because the edge apex next to the burr is at 1-2 micron width, no matter what grit.
It is a very delicate length of steel which is easy to deform by grinding further - stop here, and change to a finer wheel or straight to the leather wheel. Because from this point on, it is too easy to dull the edge apex by too much diligence. You physically can not refine an edge with the burr by continuing on the same grit that has raised that burr, and on a rotating wheel you can only worsen it.

Extrapolating my bench stone experience onto a wheel, I kept raising a burr on one side first, before flipping to the other, till realised all the wrongs this technique brings with it. Steve Bottoroff recommends flipping over with each pass - but do I really have make an authority call to be heard? You grind away more steel off your blade using this approach for exactly the same reason why you can not raise a burr simultaneously all along the edge - where in a straight edge knife, sheepsfoot etc you get a concavity from overgrinding the middle, in all other edges you waste metal from the same overgrinding while raising a burr on one side first.

I've been told I may sound mentorish when I try to put things black-and-white clear, apologies if I do, it's not my intention.

I don't think you sound "mentorish".    (I actually appreciate direct, "to the point", responses).

I'm not sure about your answer though... mostly 'cause my results seem to differ from yours.  I saw the same improvement in my edge on the Tormek, by removing/reducing the burr prior to the honing wheel, that I saw with other methods.  The only difference (and maybe this corresponds to what you said ) is that it does only take one or two light passes to do this.... it's not several alternating passes that might occur on a stone.  My experience, you can refine an edge on the same grit, by making the passes very light... not worsen it.

Like I suggested earlier, some of this may be subject to interpretation. For example, "raising a burr along the entire edge" doesn't translate for me to... make passes from heel to tip until a burr is raised along the edge, it translates to... work areas as needed until a burr is raised along the entire side.  And, I pay attention to the knife... if I have an area that is really "off", then I would work both sides alternating every few passes, until I got things where I wanted.  I'm not sure why sharpening to a burr causes more metal removal on a Tormek wheel vs. a stone... maybe it goes back to what I said earlier (don't work the entire side trying to raise a burr, if there is a burr in some areas already).  Alternating sides just takes longer to reach a burr on one side (not longer overall), but how it influences what you're saying... I guess I'm not seeing why sharpening one side first vs. alternating, results in "overgrinding".

[cbwx34]

So Tormek friends.. a little update and of course some new questions. Hope y`all don`t mind.

As I gain more confidence the bevels get more smoother and better looking overall. That part is going okay and it improves with every knife thankfully.
Now today I got a bit confused. I sharpened a chef knife (cheap) and got it razorsharp. Went on to the next knife. Did all the steps looked beautiful (edge wise) tried it on a piece of paper and it couldn`t cut anything.. not even butter.(note: I sharpened this knife before and made it dull for resharpening) I figured out I used the Angel Master wrongly. Probably went from a steeper angle to a wider angle so I need to focus on the angle master more.

Some other thing that I thought was weird (most likely to my misunderstanding or wrongfully using the machine) I noticed when skipping the honing wheel and went straight for my stropping paddle with very fine compound the knife was MUCH sharper. So I think I use the honing wheel wrong perhaps. Used a bit extra oil AFTER I put on the Tormek compound because it looked so dry. Awfull thing to do I read in other topics. So later on I thought wait a minute what if I put a bit of extra fine compound on the honing wheel (same as I use on my leather paddle) results got a bit better but I think I now made all the mistakes one can make with a honing wheel and have to buy a new one. Well.. first stone and honing wheel I offer to the learning process than 

I think you're edges look great!

Consider using a marker to mark your edges, even if using the AngleMaster... this will quickly tell you if you made a mistake setting the angle with the AngleMaster.

I don't think your honing wheel is ruined... I "over oiled" mine too, and did clean some of it off (I used a waterless non-abrasive hand cleaner), and then just added the honing compound to it, and it works.  So it's probably more of a technique issue.

I agree with wootz ideas for honing... you want to be right at the edge.  One thing you might try while practicing (in addition to what he said)... when honing, with the wheel on, I'll start with the knife on the honing wheel at an angle where I know the edge isn't contacting, the slowly bring the edge to the wheel (either rotate the knife or move down the circumference)... you can hear and feel when the edge contacts the wheel.  Then I'll hone from heel to tip at this position.  It's easier to feel where you're at on a strop vs. the honing wheel, that might be why your results differ.

[tomerus]

@ Wootz.. thank you for your honing wheel tips> The result is getting better. Still not there but better. I noticed I did not always had the knife straight on the wheel which gives me bad results. Just need some more experience with it I guess.

@cbwx34.. Thanks for the Sharpie Tip. Haven`t sharpened knives much couple of days but I am practicing with the sharpie. So every knife I can find I color the edge and try the find the angle on the Tormek. This is the reason I couldn`t resharpen my kitchen knives after making them dull. I couldn`t reproduce the same angle as the first time I sharpened the knife. So I really need to develop this skill to quickly find/reproduce the original edge bevel. Must admit I find it difficult to do.. Just have to practice more. Will get it down eventually :-)

[cbwx34]

@ Wootz.. thank you for your honing wheel tips> The result is getting better. Still not there but better. I noticed I did not always had the knife straight on the wheel which gives me bad results. Just need some more experience with it I guess.

@cbwx34.. Thanks for the Sharpie Tip. Haven`t sharpened knives much couple of days but I am practicing with the sharpie. So every knife I can find I color the edge and try the find the angle on the Tormek. This is the reason I couldn`t resharpen my kitchen knives after making them dull. I couldn`t reproduce the same angle as the first time I sharpened the knife. So I really need to develop this skill to quickly find/reproduce the original edge bevel. Must admit I find it difficult to do.. Just have to practice more. Will get it down eventually :-)

I try and spend as little time as possible on the honing wheel, just my preference.  (It's why I try and remove as much burr as possible prior to the honing wheel).  The more you hone, the more refined the edge becomes... not always a good thing.  I typically only do one or two passes per side.

If you haven't already, you might spend some time on wootz website, to get a better idea of the relationship between the various parts of the setup... in particular his Computer Software page.  Whether or not you purchase the software (does work well though), it's a good study in the dynamics of setting the edge.

You probably already know this, but keeping things as consistent as possible (how you clamp the knife, set the angle, etc.), makes repeatability much easier.

[grepper]

Mr. cbwx34 uttered, "The more you hone, the more refined the edge becomes... not always a good thing."

Yup.  I agree.