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Just to be sure : I certainly don't pretend I can get my knives as sharp as most Tormek enthusiasts, let alone consummate professionals such as Jeff or Stig. 

It may just be a question of what we mean by "the anglemaster has worked for many years". If this tool is used for setting the edge angle, well at 15° it will set a 14° angle on knife A, a 13° angle on knife B, and a 13.5° angle on knife C, plus/minus a random error due to eyesight and tolerances. A method based on Dutchman's calculations and a stone-to-usb measurement may put a 15.3° angle, or a 14.7° angle, or a 14.9° angle, due to eyesight and tolerances.

The anglemaster may give you a very sharp knife, no doubt, just not one set at the angle you desire, even on very simple geometries such as a paring knife or a thick santoku. I bought a Tormek and am very happy with it because it allows me to increase my sharpening precision and consistency. I will continue to favor methods that help with that, which is the reason I'm so passionate about a statement that "in the end it doesn't matter".

Cheers,

Nick.

Most times when we do demos or sharpens knives on a tradeshow, we replicate the original edge mostly. Using the marker method is a great way to replicate most edges.

It seems to me that's about the only thing that works when you want to replicate the edge from heel to tip.

As for the debate with the anglemaster, the concern I have is that it introduces a systematic error. Not a random one related to the precision of the measurement scale or the vernier or some roundings here and there, but one that is here because the taper angle of the blade is not taken into account by the process. Even with kitchen knives, something that will offset your angle each time by 2° is problematic when on the other hand one talks about "12° is a bit acute, 15 is OK and 20 is too much". Because then it translates to "with the angle master 10°  is a bit sharp, 12° is on the daring side of OK, and 15 is on the safe side of OK".

It will probably have to do with what you consider the tip being "done right". Is it a constant angle (if you favor cutting performance or edge retention), is it a constant bevel width (looks nicer, will probably be enjoyed by most customers), ...

Then once you've determined that, you will have more insight on what your method should be.

If you aim for a constant angle, then a laser line and a pivot jig will work wonders.

If you want a constant bevel width, it will depend a lot on the geometry of your blade (tapered/curved edge/you name it), how and where you clamp the knife, and the sharpie with a very light touch should serve you well. You will need to find a lifting/pivoting combination that will suit your needs, and practice...

Cheers!

I didn't feel like bringing it up, but since it's up...

I think everything works when you set up a blade, even eyeballing it. In the videos they mostly use it as a rough estimate then end up checking with the sharpie. The kenjig or spreadsheet method is both more accurate and faster when you want a given angle. Which probably only matters if you change stones or want a controlled honing method.

Re the BESS tester...
...
Did I miss something ?

Cheers,

Nick.

That... they have their own forum? 

The BESS exchange is bessex.com. For more in depth BESS discussions, it is an ideal reference.

Ken

I definitely missed that. Thanks !

I made a video a few months ago showing the effects of thread tension on BESS score... And also how BESS scores can be artificially lowered by chopping down on the thread, rather than gradual progression of pressure.  On the latter point I managed to get a Mora basic down to 16 BESS 

https://youtu.be/dG2rQ6CjTyc

Brad, this is a brilliant video that hadn't shown up in my results yet. Many thanks!

I did about ten knives last weekend. I went with a projection length of 145, which when eyeballed would work with all knives (they were medium to large knives, and the short one I did with the triangle pivot jig). I have two Usbs, one on the FVB and the other vertically mounted. I did all of them on the SG, then deburred on the leather wheel with tormek compound, and leather wheel with Chromox. Two knives at a time as I have only two SVM 45s, for the last two which were the nicest ones I switched to SJ before deburring.

All done with the brilliant TormekCalc and calipers, plus a measuring block from schleifjunkies. Maybe not even two minutes total typing on the computer as the different heights for the wheels appear simultaneously. I ordered the All-in-one angle tool but find it a bit too fiddly for my taste.

Cheers,

Nick.

Micha,

Thanks for your insight. I agree with all your points, it just seems to me that for something that is supposed to "certify" sharpness, being dependent on the user notion of "tight, but not too tight" is some kind of a loophole.

I'll try to experiment a bit to see how the bess value varies for a single knife with different - yet still complying with the "not overtight" requirement - settings, and let you know. Maybe it's negligible.

Re the BESS tester - which I purchased because I'm not a reasonable person, and also because it intrigues me - there is one thing I can't seem to wrap my head around :

Thread tension obviously plays a key role in the result, as the tighter the thread, the earlier it will break.
I've seen attempts at standardizing thread tension by hanging 100g weights and such, which is fine.
But unless I don't use it properly, it seems to me that the tightness of the screw plays a key role in thread tension. So much so that it seems one can break the thread just by tightening the screw. So you'd obviously get much better BESS values with a thread that's on the verge of snapping.

Did I miss something ?

Cheers,

Nick.

And you'd have to not only charge for your time but also for recouping your investment in the DBS jig and the SB/CBN/Diamond wheel that you'd be using for that, the SG stone being helpless for HSS bits.

In my experience, drill bits are sharpened very quickly on the SB stone (the contact area being small, and the jig very well done). So I'm not sure the question is how fast you can go, but rather "how much are people willing to pay", given that standard new quality bits are in the $5 range. It would take a connoisseur to want a 4-facet grind, and there probably aren't that many people around you with costly bits who want them sharpened.

Ken you're right they don't have to endorse any third party product. And I'd be fine with that.

They don't have to say "in the end it doesn't matter" when in fact it does, either.  When they do that they - in my opinion - stray from the image they deserve of a company that strives for continuous improvement.

As for the Angle Master, I dare anyone, Tormek guru or not, to successfully use it on say, a standard , spot-on-15dps Fibrox knife. The only knife I can think of that would measure okay for the angle master is a traditional japanese blade such as a usuba. But that's probably a very bad idea to sharpen it on a tormek.

But don't get me wrong, my intent is just to share whatever few reservations I has watching this video with other Tormek enthusiasts because I think debating is in the best common interest. I've been proven blatantly wrong on more than a few misconceptions I had, and I feel that has sped up my learning curve a lot. Not using the AngleMaster for knives would have spared me quite some time messing up knives then putting them back where I wanted them.

Again, I feel the rest of the video is VERY interesting. It has me thinking a lot on whether or not I should try sharpening hawkbills on my T8, and with what jig. I'm not convinced it's a good idea yet, but I will certainly give it a try with a cheap opinel one.

Cheers,

Nick.

I totally enjoyed the video. It gives a lot of food for thought, and I'm not dismissing it in its entirety, at all.

I just disagree with their evaluation of the respective benefits of the Angle Master for knives and the computer programs. I think they'd be better off saying "go with the sharpie, google what a kenjig is, or download one of these nifty computer programs", instead of dismissing it on shaky grounds that would cast a doubt on the rest of their reasoning, however good the latter is. I loved the half-moon jigs idea, it was quite illustrative. And I also need to watch it a few more times.

Cheers,

Nick.

[Yes it does]

It is very detailed and very interesting.

Still, they sometimes can't seem to get to acknowledge that "hey, sometimes we don't come up with the best idea". What they are saying with knife tilting and pivoting one way or the other makes sense, essentially: try with the sharpie and see what looks better. But then they say "some computer programs are more precise than our angle master but in the end that doesn't matter because of all the 3D movements". [Edited for the typo]

Yes it does : errors compound themselves, and using a precise software will make sure that not only are you better off for the part of the blade that is parallel to the USB, but also you will be able to replicate the same inital position on different stones. So whatever deviation you introduce with the lifting/pivoting combined action will not come on top of an already biased initial position. And the angle master is indeed a pain in the butt for most knives. I say either use TormekCalc or the sharpie, dont bother with the Angle master for knives. It's OK for standard chisels though.

4 hours to go !

I feel compelled to refer to the excellent video by wootz on grading (it follows an equally good one on truing) if you haven't come across it yet. I love the feeling I get after the wheel has been graded with a #80 diamond plate when I need it coarse, much more so than after i've trued. And I feel I need to true much less when using the diamond plates the way shown in the video.