Messages

Ken, I think trying to kill off a discussion multiple times is also not needed. You made your point about contacting support already, as did I and multiple other people.
There is not need to repeat yourself again.

Besides: there is no hurt in helping people to trouble shoot the issue before they contact support or while they wait for support to answer. (as long as the troubleshooting doesn't void any warranty!)
Often support even appreciates it if you have done thorough research into the issue yourself.

And even if it doesn't solve or clearup anything, at least some of us might learn something about our devices, isn't that a "always win" scenario?
But yes: always contact support if something is under warranty.


On topic:
Your drivewheel seems fine. So worst case Tormek has to replace the leather honing-wheel and Stone.
But I personally find it very odd that your shaft is fine (otherwise the drive wheel would also bobble), but both your leather wheel and stone have either a low or a heighspot.
Are you sure there isn't just shipping damage? Is it from an actually Tormek associated seller, or just a random shop somewhere?

Okey, so to be clear:
It's not a wobble, it a vertical bobble?

In that case your stone is just a little untrue.
Just start your TT-50 truing tool based on the highest spot on the stone and move down from there every pass. It will get true eventually.

Besides the obvious advice of contacting support:
There are roughly 3 kinds of wobble:
1. A bend axle
2. A stroke in the drive wheel
3. An not-true-round wheel

They have different symthomes which are quite doable to seperate:
1. In that case both wheels (the drive/honing wheel on one side and the stone on the other), wobble in tandem, but often slightly or completely offset.
2. In that case if you rotate the drivewheel on its own (or role it on the ground) it starts to wobble in itself too. But if you look at the shaft or stone seperately there is not wobble
3. In that case the stone is either not completely round, or isn't sitting straight on the axle.
3.a In case of not completely round, you would only notice a wobble in height, not to the sides. This is quite normal for example in Lathe operation and easy to fix: Put the TT-50 on slightly above the highest spot and slowly lower it bit by bit every pass.
3.b. In case the stone is not sitting nice on the shaft, you will also notice a wobble to the sides. It's not wise to fix this using the TT-50, because it might be related to the fit of the stone (and thus might change when you remount the stone.

I never knew systainer... But those prices are gosh damn cheap... :O
(having worked with Peli and Makita boxes before that is)

Wow, I just noticed this.
Awesome, this works even nicer than an application, because it generates values for multiple disks at one go.

[7. Painting]

7. Painting

Painting was actually pretty self explainatory. I used a good quality paint (motip) and another 4 layers to have a nice-and-thick coat.

I don't mind it being uneven, but the worsed spots where already smoothed by the 4 precoats of epoxy primer.

Why blue? My vendor had a nice blue on display and considering I'm replacing the shaft with the T-7 model (stainless) shaft, I think it's a nice hint...

I didn't worry about the hole sizes: If anything wouldn't fit I can just grab a file. It's a tool not my wife 😉




8. Motor refurbishing

When refurbishing motorized equipment I also always take a look at the electromotor separately. Sometimes I completely refurbish it, other times I just replace a part or just clean it.

However: Taking apart Electro motors completely is a delicate process and I try to take it apart as little as I can. If it works smoothly and it easily accessable in the future, I mostly leave the insides be.

Cleaning the motor from the rust and stains that where on it was pretty simply: Just the old WD-40 and Aluminium foil trick again. Sadly enough I couldn't remove all the rust stains, but it was removed so much that it's mostly harmless. (and pretty usual with electro motors close to a water source, I've seen it on pumps too a lot and those could keep running for years and years with it)

My first check if a motor runs, trying to spin it by hand. Idealy we want it to continue spinning for a little while when you stop spinning it by hand. This mostly shows the bearings are in relatively good shape. If it stops right away, you are out of luck and need to replace the bearings (and thus take it apart completely).

Surprisingly, considering the huge amount of rust (even on the motor), it spins pretty smooth. So those bearings where alright. Though I did give them a little sip of grease afterwards.

Second check is powering it, which... Worked out pretty well..

Extremely happy I continued with cleaning and preparing to, already be done with it. But, I was not that lucky. When taking the fan cover off, In noticed the 3 screws where damaged. Taking the cover off I noticed why, and why it has been standing in someones storage: Some absolute idiot... removed the cooling fan.
Quite lucky I took it apart, because without it it would surely overheat with long use.

it should've been an easy fix: Grab aftermarket axial fan (size 13mm inner, 9,7mm outer) and be done with it. Sadly enough there are a lot of aftermarket fans... for anything BUT this size. I managed to find one vendor in Italy that happened to have a reasonably priced 12mm inner, 10mm outer axial fan. Way too large but dremmeling it out would work for now.

Tormek was also really helpful, They are looking in their storage for me and will send me a fitting replacement if they get their hands on one. Really awesome support! 😊

I'm not going to make pictures of the dremmel and glue results, because they shamefully suck. But, the fan fits solidly and produces output air. Which is what we wanted. While the Motor could reach 140c I worse case, We don't have to worry about hotglue melting, because the fan doesn't get very hot and it's the location that gets the most cooling.

When it comes to the electronics I noticed the wiring hole was open on both the capacity cover and Motor. I don't like open holes in Electrical Equipment that works with Water, So I just hot-glueed them shut.

Intermezo: Finances

Okey what are we at at the financial front?
The fan: I did manage to have the original seller refund the price of the fan. Considering she sold it as (no joke) "Good working order" I wouldn't calk it good. But without the fan it isn't really working, its burning itself out.

In terms of paint it was a total order of just above 33 euro's including shipping.

Cleaning wasn't expensive, lets say 2 euro's, but the used WD-40 was about 1/3 of a bottle worth 10 euro's, so a total of (lets say) 5 euro's.

That brings the sub-total up to slightly under 230 euro's including shipping.

[5. Rust removal]

Thanks for the reply @john.jcb
Keep looking, while 190 euro isn't a bargain I'm pretty happy with the price...

Anyhow another update:

5. Rust removal

*Disclaimer*
Using Hydrochloric Acid is dangerous. Use Personal Protective Equipment (PPE), Air filters and preferably do so in the open air. Even if so, I'm not liable if you kill the neighbors cat due to the fumes.
For rust removal I had multiple options.

- Considering I'm going to fully repaint (including primer), I opted for the nuclear option for the frame itself:
Pure 30% Hydrochloric Acid.

Interesting enough it seems hydrochloric Acid didn't attack the paint much, but just in case it did I did prepare to remove all paint if it was too badly attacked. Luckily I didn't have to remove the paint 😊

- Because Hydrochloric acid also eat away from non-rust metals, I opted 2 parts 30% acid to 3 parts water solution for the other heavy rusted bits like the motor support shaft.

- For not-so-much rusted parts I just added some pure Citric Acid to the soapy solution I used to clean them in.

However: There is one downside to using hydrochloric acid besides it attacking good metal and having killer fumes: It causes what is called "Flash Rusting", simply put: As soon as you rinse it off it completely covers said object in a thin layer of rust.

There is a trick to prevent this however, and it isn't well known it seems:
After rinsing off the Acid, cover the complete part in WD-40. It prevents moisture and air from reacting with the metal and thus prevents flash rusting. If you leave it sit in WD-40 for a day or 2, before removing it, you can safely paint it without flash-rusting in between.

To remove the remaining bits of rust and grime, I used Science again:
We know that rust is weaker(softer) than Iron or steel. We also know we don't want to damage paint or scratch the parts if we can help it.
The trick? WD-40 (yes, again) and... Aluminium foil. Yes: Plain old crumbled aluminium foil is hard enough to clean the remaining rust and grime, but soft enough not to damage the part and paint. At the same time WD-40 makes the parts slippery enough to brush it with a blob of foil.

For example: to clean the remaining stains of the toolpost-holders, It took about 30 seconds per holder max. Easy, cheap, perfect.

It also removed any loose paint from the frame, without ripping off paint that was still stuck enough to left be.



6 Rust sealing and protective coating

*Disclaimer*
Brunox Epoxy is disgusting shit. Please use PPE from the start. I've been sickly for 2 days because I breath in a little wif of it. Use long sleaves (preferable throw away clothing) and GOOD air protection, that suppresses both Epoxy fumes AND droplets.
Some smartass at Brunox thought this was a good place to place the PPE warning, hence I missed it:



So now that we have a nice clean frame, the thing heavily needs a rust-protective coating. Preferably one that also neutralizes any remaining micro-bits or rust (a few dots of rust remained). While I would normally be all-for normal primer, I wanted something that was even harder and more durable (I hope):

Brunox Epoxy Spray.

As I didn't care about evenness and smoothness, I left the old paint on. It's a tool and it is getting abused anyhow.

Before spraying I cleaned off the WD-40 with pressure-washer-soap+alchohol-pressurewasher- soap+alchohol-rinse. It removed all WD-40 with easy. After I rinsed the case with alchohol and wiped it off, to get it dry as fast as possible and lower the chance of any rust forming.

I gave the part 4 layers of Brunox Epoxy. However: Even though the Manual doesn't state the re-spray time, it's not the same as the 2 hours drying time. It's the same stuff as they sell in a normal can... And it is resprayable in about 30 minutes. However: It doesn't hurt to let it cure between layers anyhow.

To ensure a coating that is even more durable than just Brunox, I opted to cure the Epoxy for 1 hour in a 150c oven. The reason for this is again science: Epoxy gives more durable results (for example: Higher temperature resistance) the hotter it's cured. In stark contrast to what some people might say: Epoxy doesn't reach the same curing potential with time in room temperature. It just chemically cures differently at room temperature.
Another nice side effect of curing it at 150c, is doing so after curing the last layer for just 30 minutes. This leads to the last layer of coating getting slightly liquidy again, which fills any remaining uneven spots.

The result:
A Heavy 4 layers of rust neutralizing, Sealing Epoxy. Preventing current and future rust from forming.

Picture: Before baking

While the T8 is a great machine, Tormek is very good at one thing:
Saving in manufacturing costs while still keeping a great quality end-product.

Thats not a complaint at all, just a fact based on the design of 20+ years of tormeks.
Take for example tormeks Prior to the T8, they consisted of 3 parts:
- 1 big plate in which they drill holes for both the frame and the top bracket for the axles. (those get cut out and bend into the right shape)
- 1 L Profile, from which they cut 2 pieces
- 1 U profile from which they cut 2 pieces
These pieces get some welds and thats the (unpainted) frame. (The welding quality of the S2000 and earlier is ABYSMAL btw, thats not welding thats a monkey with a welder.)

This proces is extremely easy and extremely cheap. Having completely teared down my S2000 I can make a diagram for a machinist friend from which he can make 10 frames an hour.

Okey now ontopic:
The T8 saves in manufacturing costs even more, All parts that are now part of the cast-zinc where previously made seperatly and where relatively expensive.
While Cast Zinc isn't cheaper than plate steel in itself, it doesn't require those seperate parts and doesn't require welding. This leads to a reduction in labor costs at the costs of a slightly more expensive material.
Simply put: Screw and put-together monkeys are cheaper than welding monkeys.

However, it has a downside:
- Cast zinc is softer (even their alloy)
- Cast zinc is harder to weld

Thus screw threading might wear out after years of use, without an easy way to fix it.
By combining parts into one, they made it harder for me to repair those parts seperately.
For the steel version I could even head to any decent machinist and ask him to make me a new frame, not so much with the T8.

The plastic sides are also something i'm not that keen on. I don't want plastic in my long term investments if I can help it. Certainly not plastic side panels (which again are a cost saving because they are INSANELY cheap to manufacture)

I don't like their manufacturing cost restructuring is being sold as an "improvement", it isn't. Its just a different (cheaper) proces to increase the profit margin. Yeah zinc doesn't rust the way steel does, but that's not the underlaying reason for the change in manufacturing process. I totally understand why they wanted to get rid of the welding monkeys and from a bussiness perspective I understand and agree with their choices. But the marketing is just that: Marketing.

So: Personally I would hold off on the T8 till the durability of the zinc has been proven for about 8-10 years.
It isn't a bad product (its a great product), But I wanted to play devils advocate and counter the "just get a T8" argument being made.

The T8 ALSO has arguments to be made against it. Everything does.

[2. Removing the stone from the rusted shaft]

2. Removing the stone from the rusted shaft
The included stone is in a very bad state, it seems to have been sucking up rusty water for ages. This is solvable (and profitable) IF I manage to get the stone off. If I don't or break it, I'm basically at a loss.

Lets analyse what we know about stuck stones:
The saft rusts and the rust expands, the expanding rust pushes against the stone locking the stone in place. While the expansion is minimal, the force locking it onto the stone is significant, enough to shatter it in some cases... So we should minimize shocks to the stone.

First I tried just using WD-40, but somehow this didn't do much. Interesting because even more stuck bolts come loose using it.

Second attempt I applied some science:
Normally I would Torch the outer bolt. Sadly enough the "bolt" in this case is a giant rock. Ain't gonna work.
However: The stones Tormek expand and contract when frozen mostly due to water accumulation. Assuming they are dry they don't contract and expand much.
Metal shafts on the other hand contract significantly when cooled.

So lets turn it around:
I put the stone on the shaft in a -27c fridge and tried if I could move it every hour or so. After about 1-2 hours, I could remove the stone from the shaft with relative easy (very slight mallet hits to the shaft end).

This lead to a new problem:
As would later be confirmed by Tormek Support, these old disks use separate spacer/bushing rings from plastic between the shaft and the stone. These spacers where still stuck on the shaft.

This does explain why WD-40 did nothing: The WD-40 creept between the stone and the spacer (because that was the easiest route) and not between the spacer and the shaft.

Luckily with the stone remove, there is not much chance of breaking things. Worse case scenario I need to cut the bushings off and send them to a friend of mine to machine new ones. So I Soaked it in WD-40 and froze it all the way to -27c.

After freezing they came loose by putting a shim beneat the bushings and hitting the shaft. They came loose relatively easy, didn't deform much and I managed to pressed them back into the stone by hand without much force.




4. Restoring the plastics
The plastics where all very dull and dirty. But i've my methods to get them nice and shiny again.
It's pretty simply:
- Clean them with soap
- Polish them with whitener toothpaste and (paper towel) by hand (only takes a minute of brushing)
- Rinse them in water
- Spray them with Latex Cleaner (the stuff used for latex suits)
- Remove excess latex cleaner with some paper towel.

The result is all knobs and the handle are looking like new, without much time and money spend.

Welcome to the family of fan issues.
I myself got a old 2000 that was previously "repaired" (pretty much this is a spoiler for my resto blog ).
Mind "repaired" the managed to remove it completely and destroy the fans, so Guess you are lucky.

Anyhow: Those a dab of medium-high temperature hotglue would be enough to give it some extra stick.
Just be mindfull with all glues: Degrease heavily and properly but make SURE no degrease gets into the bearing.
Also be aware that anyone with fan issues should regrease afterwards just to be sure. Some older motorshafts do not seem to be stainless.

[0. Disassembly]

A few weeks back I got my hands on this baby, a heavily abused (almost tortured) Tormek Supergrind 2000. The pre-2001 (no serial) square model. It wasn't cheap, but I haven't been able to get one cheaper for 2 years now. It has been 190 Euros including shipping.

At this price point it's mostly a bet: If I manage to save the stone, it's profitable, if I don't I'm at a loss. But in both cases I get to save a great machine from the scrapheap!

Along the way you will find some Tips and Tricks, with some personal restoration expertise, often the solution to a problem is closer than you might think. *SPOILER* Other times the problems are closer than you might want them to be! */SPOILER*

As you can see it looks like it has been standing in the rain for a year. I don't call it abuse and torture for a reason. Luckily I've some previous experience restoring vintage appliances (ex. I have a completely restored 1970's Hobart Kitchenaid with restored 1960 transformer)



I've separated the process into a few separate stages:
0. Disassembly
1. Damage review
2. Removing the stone from the rusted shaft
3. Not logged: Cleaning (it was dirty okey, you get it)
4. Restoring the plastics
5. Rust removal
6. Rust sealing and protective coating
7. Painting
8. Motor refurbishing
9. Assembly
10. parts replacement
11. Cleaning the stone
12. PROFIT (or failure 😉 )

I'll try and add to this (and/or post a follow up) as I get along and get the time to write it down.
Some pictures might not be fully in line with these stages...


0. Disassembly
I'm actually pretty surprised how easy it is to disassemble, most bolts are not rusted at all and not overly torqued. Interesting because often after 20 years screws tend to become stubborn, very impressive tolerances without locktite!

Need to say: I didn't use powertools, but I didn't skip on good screwdrivers either (PB-Swiss flex warning). Always use a good screwdriver when refurbishing, not every fit is a good fit.

However the not-so-good sides:
- Ofcoarse the stone bolt was rusted as fuck and it was a HELL to get it off cleanly without risking the stone (without too much force or hitting it)

- To remove the handle, it often is required to remove the entire motor assembly or use a wrench with corner attachment. This couldn've been done easier I think.
-   Sadly enough the main shaft isn't the only shaft that isn't rust-proofed. No one ever talks about it, but here it is: The motor mount-shaft is a rusty b*tch. Really. It also has pretty thight tolerances so when it starts rusting it means quite some work hammering and using WD-40 to get it loose. 
The rusting of this shaft has been worsened because this version uses a plastic hollow spacer. Considering the rust, it seems humidity managed to creep into this gap and rust the shaft even more.

I hope someone else can give some insight about this old "leather-ish" wheel, it looks... weird and rubbish.


1.   Damage review
When restoring there tend to be 2 kinds of damage
- To-Be-Restored
- Disassembly damage

The disassembly damage was minor, I broke a small piece from the spaces which isn't any problem and there are some scratches on the motor mount-shaft.

The damage to be restored is heavy, but not hard. Mainly rust it seems like. No obvious dents, broken parts etc. just LOTS OF RUST.