Messages

You are probably being facetious. My method defiled logic, but I was serious.

Here are the BESS scores for the last three CraftKitchen knives I have sharpened. It takes about 3 passes on the first side to raise a burr. I use very light pressure. 

New 220
Sharpened 160
Honed 1st 105
Honed 2nd 115
Honed 3rd 85

New 160
Sharpened 120
Honed 85

New 310
Sharpened 145
Honed 75

3D your method seems similar to mine.  Go to Walmart.  Buy a CraftKitchen knife for $6.  Only use the rough grit.  Only use very light pressure sharpening and honing.  Use 15 degrees per side.  Please let me know what your BESS scores were New, Sharpened and Honed. 

Thanks.

Pretty spot on... For me, the amount of pressure needed to strop effectively does vary.  Some steels generate larger and more stubborn burrs. Buck's sport an exceptional temper generating a hard burr. I find increasing the pressure a tad helps remove that burr.  So for me, the pressure needed and the angle can change depending on the steel and temper.

When I first started using the KS-123 I was in the camp of, not accurate enough. 
After using the KS-123 in my lineup more frequently, I am gaining the confidence to even use it on fine blades. 
The reason is simple.  I test every knife with a Bess Tester, my results are the same whether I measure or use the KS-123.  If you use the same care setting up the KS-123 as you do measuring, I would, with confidence state, you could possibly be more accurate using it.

Same as above... forget to every now and again... still annoying.

I have seen folks grind tip to heel.  I wonder if that helps?

You have to grind the serrations before you hone or else you'll just have polished, blunt serrations. The Tormek technique for grinding serrations is freehand on the rounded shoulders of the grinding wheel. Some suggest to grind the backside with the side of the wheel, others to just hone the backside.

As for me, I prefer to clamp the knife in a vise or any holder, work on the serrations with a round ceramic rod, then use a few light passes of a very fine diamond plate for the backside.

The Tormek method is too much trouble IMO for serrated knives, and it is easy to grind way too much, or to inadvertently change the shape of the serrations.

This, with a caveat.  There are a zillion styles of serrated "teeth".  If this is only for your knife, carry on.

I have attempted honing either side of serrations using PA-70 with no real success. I will often make a quick pass on a 600 grit belt on the backside at a slightly elevated angle to only hit the tips of the serrations.  If that doesn't work, I do as mentioned above.  I use a ceramic rod or a small tapered diamond rod.

Please let us know if you have any success.
Al

This is almost exactly my process. I think I am at or below the 100 Bess mark based on tests outlined in Vadim's sharpening chart. I normally hone at +1.5°. I will try altering it to a lower number as you suggest after initial passes. Switching to the honing wheel with diamonds impregnated does help. I only bother with this step for my own knives. I normally stop with the PA-70 paste followed by stropping on leather.

Our techniques do seem to be very similar...
When I use the angle setter I just guess at +1.6.  That number can vary,  depending on steel or temper.
I only use diamonds selectively.  High end knives or anything I'm trying to polish.

In honing, I believe the angle and pressure (coupled with your choice of stropping compound) is the key.  Strop too lightly, no progress, too heavy and you grind away the teeth and risk rounding the apex.  That angle comes into play as well.

It will also show you when you've stropped too much.

Can you elaborate on this ? What are the effects of too much stropping ? Do you mean honing on the honing wheel ? What is your process ?

I have never experience such a thing as too much honing, but maybe it is because I haven't done enough testing...

Sorry for the late reply. 
I have a small shop and do not advertise. I rarely work all day and have time to experiment with different processes and techniques.
When I sharpen on the T-8, I hone on the leather wheel.  Currently I have two.  One is loaded with PA-70, the other with 1um (Tech Diamond Tools) Diamond paste.
I use the Bess every other pass or every pass once the burr fractures or starts to peel away. 
I believe successful burr removal techniques depend on the steel and temper and on my end, angle, pressure, speed of belt, grit size and number of passes.  My First Bess test after the burr starts to fracture will show an edge from 150 to 350, subsequent passes on the same media will result in progressively lower Bess numbers.  I would say, many mainstream steels show improvement till you get around 100.  Often this will be around 4 to 6 passes on the honing wheel with PA-70.  If I continue honing with the same media the numbers will stop improving and will often get worse.  Once that happens (8 to ? Passes) numbers will settle in higher than what I achieve with fewer passes. I believe that is the result of a micro rounded apex.
The best Bess numbers, for me, come shortly after the Burr starts to fall apart, 2 to 5 or 6 passes on the honing wheel.

Once I hit a wall with the PA-70 I switch to diamonds if I'm trying to hit a particular target.  Keeping in mind, the more I strop, the less aggressive the "teeth" will be.  There is a happy medium.

I find the fastest way to remove the burr is honing at +1.6 till the burr starts to fall apart (sometimes after 1 pass) Then lowering the angle to +.2 or.3, or exact angle for a couple finishing passes.

To sum things up, using the Bess as the burr starts to disolve will help preserve the "teeth" and prevent rounding the apex as evidenced by slightly higher Bess numbers on repeated passes.  The rounded apex may be user error by applying too much pressure or the wrong angle... maybe speed, not sure. Negitive and positive burrs require slightly different honing methods.
Bottom line: have a target Bess number in mind.  Don't fight it, stop when you hit it.

As the OP wanted to know how to hit sub 100 numbers, the above process works for me. Quality steel will help ensure your success and keep you from losing your mind. Once you see how long it takes to hit 50 vs. the length of time it stays that sharp, you will probably lose the desire to hit 50. One use will scoot that Bess number over or very close to 100.  It is doable and rewarding once you're there, but not practical for everyday use...IMHO

As mentioned before, Vadim stated there is a correlation between grit size and achievable Bess numbers.  I prefer CBN for consistent grit particles and results.  I do not have a diamond wheel.

In regards to the original post. I have sharpened for customers at 20, 17 and 15 degrees primarily.  I now sharpen pretty much any decent kitchen  knife to 15 degrees... They always come back to me needing sharpened.  That's to say, I can't tell if one angle held up better or not. 
All but the cheapest steel should be stable at 15%.  Wootz or Larin showed the sharper the knife is, the longer it stays sharp.  The geometry allows a sharper edge at 15°.

 In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter. 90% of your customers won't know or care what angle they are sharpened to.

Yep, what he said...

As I re-read through all the comments there are a couple things that jump out.
First, many don't see the need or use for a Bess Tester.  I use mine for testing my work but more importantly,  I use it to learn new techniques and improve my current techniques. It is especially useful in the learning stages to see the way different steels and tempers react to being honed.
Secondly, I use it to confirm I have fully refined the tip, belly and heel. It will also show you when you've stropped too much.

In regards to the OP, the Bess enables you to learn what works and what doesn't. Under 100 is very realistic with the SG-250, depending on the steel. As some have mentioned, cheap steel sometimes just won't get under 120 for a variety of reasons.

Some folks see it as a way to compare results to someone else... I could care less.  Just trying to improve my craft, in my mind.

It is a useful tool for me, and has a premium spot on my bench.

I have found that it is much easier to get low BESS scores when I sharpen at low angles (sub-15 dps). In my experience diamond stones tend to produce lower scores than the SG-250, and higher grit finishes (1000+) produce lower scores than lower grit finishes.

Just to make sure : when you talk about lower scores, do you mean lower BESS number or lower sharpness ?

I meant lower BESS scores.

To rephrase, I've noticed that the SE-250 (extra fine diamond wheel) gives me lower BESS scores (sharper edge) than the SG-250 (standard stone wheel), on the same kitchen knife (Spyderco MBS-26 steel similar to VG10), at the same angle, using the same technique.

I have not experimented enough to say this is definitive. At the moment I suspect it could be due to grit differences, or that one abrasive cuts a certain steel cleaner than the other, or something else?

That is going deep into the weeds... Take it as one data point from "a guy in his garage seeing a thing". 🙂

In Vadim's book he does state there is a correlation between grit size and low BESS numbers.

I am a dedicated BESS user.  I use it several times on quality steel knives as I sharpen them.  It always removes the question of "how sharp" they are or if the burr has been fully removed. It is invaluable in determining how much and what technique to use stropping.

One last point... many have stated there is no point in striving for 50 bess.  The sharper a knife starts, the longer it stays sharp.  And, it's not liner.

Yes, you can sharpen under 100 with an SG wheel.  CBN or Diamond is more consistent.

Lastly, Bess testing will shave time off your honing learning curve. (If your taking notes).
IMHO

As an experienced user I imagine you have, but have you used a diamond plate to de-glaze and redress your stone?  I use cheap diamond plates in an 80 and 400 grit.  Allegedly the 80 will get the stone to 220 grit, the 400 comes out as 1000 grit.
It only takes a short time to deglaze or change the grit. 
I use the diamond truing tool as needed.

The 1200 grit CBN wheel will most certainly grind an initial edge on ceramic knives, but that edge will be completely unusable due to chipping (even with careful use)
For most commercial work after creating an initial edge on the SB-250 Blackstone i refine on a first Paper Wheel with 15 micron diamond compound (edge is still unusable after this), and then at least up to 6 micron diamond compound on a second Paper Wheel.
When there are no large chips i often only use the 15 and 6 micron Paper Wheels.

Further refinement with 3 micron diamond compound on a third Paper Wheel or even 1 micron diamond compound on a fourth Paper Wheel leads to a noticeable keener edge as well as much longer edge longevity.
The problem is of course that this also takes much more time, so after a lot of experimenting & testing i have found refinement up to 6 micron to be a good balance of edge keenness & longevity, and time spent sharpening/polishing.

Also: i avoid working on cheap ceramic knives, these are not worth it.
These days i only do quality ceramics.

Maybe this older thread is also helpful:

https://forum.tormek.com/index.php/topic,5672.0.html

Thank's for the intel...

Led light panels are relatively cheap, easy to install, bright and many you can change the color on.  The more the merrier.  Install more than you think you will need.  Never too much light in the workspace.

I'm wondering if anyone has duplicated these amazing results?
Inquiring minds want to know...