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Great numbers, thanks for the website link, Ive started reading it. I know exactly how important it is to remove the burr because I havent managed to do it yet using my T8. I bought a Spiderco Endura 4 in K390 just because I read it was easy to de-burr, Ive had to grind stop down as the point of the blade was sticking out when closed due to me shapening so much, I think I aged the knife about 10 years  So ive dropped down another rabbit hole and purchased a Work Sharp Pro Elite system and now Im getting these numbers, Ive been experimenting with diamond strop compounds and I think Stroppy Stuff is great.

I also like K390 a lot. 👍



Speaking of Stroppy Stuff, he has a great video about checking, deburring and verifying with BESS at every step along the way, using a K390 Delica. You may have seen it?

It opened my eyes at the time. Not specifically Tormek related, but many of these techniques are easy and useful to incorporate. The deburring principles are universal and also applies to the Tormek.

       Yeah Ive watched that vid thanks. I think I prefer 8Cr13MoV, its easier to polish and for what i use it for is plenty hard enough even on my old Enlan EL-01 which cost me about £10 many moons ago!

Yes I am convinced that you still have a burr at 200 BESS.

I started to test my edges after I read Vadim's opinion about lingering burrs over 100 BESS. In my experience he was spot on.

I also like and use his very simple Rizla cigarette paper cutting test to detect a burr. In my experience, if a fresh edge (finished at 1000+ grit and stropped to remove the burr) does not cleanly slice thin Rizla paper from heel to tip, I know I still have a burr. This burr is small enough that I cannot see it under bright light or feel it. A sub-1000 grit edge or even a tiny burr does not cut Rizla paper cleanly.





I sharpened the Umnumzaan above on the Edge Pro, but the Tormek is no slouch... At the moment I feel I can get sharper edges with the diamond wheels than the SG. This was on the DE-250 diamond wheel and stropped.



I was always a "coarse/toothy edge" kinda guy, until I read this article. These incredible micrographs made me more aware of persistent burrs, and made me pay much more attention to deburring. This whole site is a gold mine of knowledge.

https://scienceofsharp.com/2024/02/03/seven-misconceptions-about-knife-burrs/

Great numbers, thanks for the website link, Ive started reading it. I know exactly how important it is to remove the burr because I havent managed to do it yet using my T8. I bought a Spiderco Endura 4 in K390 just because I read it was easy to de-burr, Ive had to grind stop down as the point of the blade was sticking out when closed due to me shapening so much, I think I aged the knife about 10 years  So ive dropped down another rabbit hole and purchased a Work Sharp Pro Elite system and now Im getting these numbers, Ive been experimenting with diamond strop compounds and I think Stroppy Stuff is great.

Thanks for link Ken, I have seen all his vids over the years and you just forget don't you. I was fixated on speed and when the composite wheel came out he did a vid going from CBN 160 (amongst a couple of other options) straight to composite. That was was probably when I stopped looking for improvement and I just stuck with it. He did also move onto green chromium oxide on the leather wheel, I never really tried that until I bought the Bess tester which is quite a few years later. I will have to go over the Globals at some point.

Thought I would update,after trying lots of methods, including forking out on a DE-250, best method so far gave me a 79, havent tried to repeat it yet. This was on my Enlan EL-01, SG-250 graded with an 80G diamond plate then straight onto the leather honing wheel at exact angle. One thing I did earlier was remove the green Bacher honing compound from it and applied the old PA-70, this improved all my tests. 6 wheels that wont be getting used as much, was going to replace my SJ wheel as I had to true damage from it but I think its about £100 more expensive than when it first came out, (or thats what my memory is telling me) Im wrapping that one in cotten wool!

If I can confirm burr removal with the Bess I will keep an eye on retention. I keep a huge roll of cling film in my kitchen drawer from costco and its the best thing I have in the house for keeping an eye on my knife edges. I slice it every day to wrap my sarnie and it tells me when the edge has gone. I will do a test next time it doesnt glide through the cling film.

It's not so much the spine thickness as it is the "thickness behind the edge".

Of course, knives with a thicker spine will - generally speaking - be thicker close to the edge. And if the knife is twice as wide close to the edge, the bevel will be twice as high.

This is not true with some japanese knives (honesukis for instance), that have a thick spine and a very thin edge.

Ah yes thank you that makes perfect sense.

I'm kinda confused. I bought the Tormek T-8 with the knife angle setter and the knife jigs. I follow the tuturials the same as on the YouTube videos.

But the thing is, their wheel is turning away from them and the knife edge. But my wheel is turning toward me toward the knife edge.

I have the 600 grit diamond wheel. But that wheel will get damaged if I sharpen with the wheel grinding toward the edge.

So is there any way to reverse the spinning direction? Because obviously I can't sharpen knifes like this.

Its quite awkward "just flipping the machine round" I dont mean hard to do without the spinning base I mean unless you have the multi base, MB-102 and move the bar to the other side its a steeper angle because of the bar position. I just tried it. Not to mention if you have the new KJ-45 the pivot parts hit the welds on the bar due to the angle. Google AI just told me its fine to do edge leading on the diamond wheels and I couldnt see any info on the product page to the contrary. Ive been using CBN wheels the same way for 5 years and they still cut like new, just dont use lots of pressure as others have said.

Hi everyone,

I've developed a retrofit for the KJ-45 to bring back the adjustable attribute of the SVM-45 - there's a link to a video at the end of this post.

Update (5/7/2024): the kit  is now available on our website:
https://magnoliaknife.com/products/tormek-kj-45-adjustable-retrofit

Oh I really hope this is still a thing, I hate the stop on the new KJ-45, off to your website now!

It is!!! Thanks for doing this and for making it avail. to the UK. Just ordered mine.

Just curious to know, not the best picture but size wise, the top knife has a 1mm bevel and the bottom one is double that. Is it because the Global on the bottom has a much thicker spine? Both knives have been grinded using eactly the same knife jig and setter.

"The sub 50 journey" seems like our version of climbing Mount Everest, "Because it is there". I don't mean to seem sarcastic. We all benefit from the work of pioneers pushing back the sharpness frontiers. Using BESS to make sure that burr is completely removed benefits day to day sharpening, long after the sub fifty reading is gone.

Ken

Im way to lazy to try and get sub 50, once I reach 100 I'm done, its getting tedious just re stringing the Bess tester! Once the method is proven i will use it less and less, its not a competition for me, just looking for longevity. 

Hello Alan,

as "Quick Reply" does not allow to upload picture files from the PC you should use "REPLY" instead. At the bottom line you will see the possibility to upload picture files from the PC. Hope this helps.

Regards,
Drilon

Ah thank you Drilon, I was hoping to do it using the "quote" button but I guess I can use copy/paste to do that and use Reply.

The highly experienced Tormek Design Committee spent years designing and perfecting the KS-123. It's fine if you prefer software and measuring. I do suggest you spent more time evaluating the KS-123 before making an informed decision about it. i encourage you to stay the course and keep us posted.

I put the SJ on and put my Shanzu knife back in a jig to see if i could improve it, I used the KS-123 to set it up again from scratch and with 1 pass it wipped 99% of the sharpie off the edge, I will give it a 100% score to allow for user error in starting the pass, a second pass totally cleaned the edge of ink so I know its very accurate.  I wont be going back to software any time soon.  1 pass the the other side completely cleaned the ink off.

Hi folks, so its been a few years but I've got back into sharpening with my T8. Partly due to the Ks-123 but partly due to moving house and finally getting a workshop setup.
To cut a long story short, I purchased a PT50A and its killing me! It now appears I have all the gear and no idea! I have everything I need to get down to 50 Bess and I cant get below 160 and that's on a clip not the manual media. I was an avid follower of Vadim and have been using his techniques for years but never tested my knives on a Bess.
Just to be clear, I'm not chasing 50 Bess, I'm not chasing anything except proof of wire burr removal so I ask if its possible I've done it with a Bess score of 200-240? I've lost my scope in the move so I've been looking through a loupe and the edge looks clean, please see my pics, however, after getting down to 165 on a test clip, I cut some cardboard and it jumped to 205, this would suggest a burr remains after everything I've learned over the years? The knife is a Global, I've apexed it on CBN, SG, SB, ( finished it on SJ, tried grading on the SG, honed on Composit, Felt with diamonds and leather loaded with chromium oxide, (felt at various degrees and leather at original angle) the latter after diamonds yielded sub 200. Sorry the pics aren't great, I think my old S9+ was better at Macro than this S23U. I've tried .5 to 2.5 degrees increases on honing, I use a FVB. I have spent a lot of time honing, all this at 15 degrees but i did try 12, the test media dented the edge at 12 but I've been at this for days so it probably wasn't honed properly.
What do you guys think? I haven't tried any other knives, this one belongs to a friend who puts them in the dishwasher! I have my own Globals but I've been focussed on getting this knife bellow 100 Bess before I move on to his others and then mine. Just to reiterate, I'm only looking for low Bess as Vadim always said over 100 was an indication of the wire burr remaining.

Edit: best reading is 148 on a clip using leather and green paste at 2.5 degrees higher.

The sub 50 journey... yes it can be done, multiple ways.
I use the following process for sub 100 scores.  You will need a BESS tester, a quality set of calipers, a Tormek or knockoff (You may drive yourself crazy with the wide range of tolerances on those machines though) a second Tormek honing wheel, PA-70 and a 1mu diamond emulsion (some work, some don't, I use DMT brand).  I also use a microscope $29 on Amazon, 1000 magnification if an edge is suspect.

-I Grind to 15 Degrees on kitchen knives unless otherwise dictated (Shuns 16 degrees etc.).
Finish your grind on CBN or Diamond (Not sure if the stone will do this yet as this process is fairly new to me and I haven't tested yet).  Vadim say's it won't work with the stone, I will test at some point as other parts of his methods have work arounds.  I can say this works with 600 and 1000 CBN grinds.  Vadim stated it works with diamonds as well.

-After completing your grind with lighter passes to minimize the Burr you will need to use the multi jig to set up the Tormek honing wheel loaded with PA-70.  Set the universal bar so your angle is 15.4.  (I am currently testing +.5)

-Make two to three passes with medium pressure on the burrless side then one or two more pass on both sides and examine.  At this point there should be almost no burr.

-Make sure to remove all PA-70 from your work piece so you don't contaminate your next wheel.

-Test your edge, you should be anywhere from 100 to 500 depending on the burr.  if your still around 500 make another pass or two on the PA-70.

-Put on the second honing wheel loaded with 1mu diamonds... some work, some don't... (I'm using an emulsion from DMT).
Make two extremely light passes with the 1um diamonds.

-Make one extremely light pass on both sides and test.  With any luck you should be sub 100.

-If your score is not where you want it you can continue to use the 1mu wheel with very light pressure.  You do not want to round the apex.

This process has yielded edges as low as 30 but typically 60 to 80.  However, if you get readings as low as 50 or below, check your edge with a microscope and look for a burr or a foil edge.  Repeated very light passes do further refine the edge and can increase sharpness.

Vadim stated that the step required to remove the burr required a felt or paper wheel at +2 degrees (1.6 or others).  This process does remove the burr but it also polishes the edge. 

The 1mu wheel should clean up the burr without polishing the teeth away with repeated passes if the burr is stubborn.  I have had success raising the honing wheels to +.5 without rounding the apex. (with a light touch).

Typically, if this process is followed you will see edges in the 60 to 80 range. 


You can use the paper wheels and achieve the same results with a polished edge (6mu, then 1mu... .25 if you want). Slow passes and pressure create a lot of heat!
(Before using paper wheels use sand paper to make them as round with a smooth edge as you can, it will pay off later).

These processes seem to be as much technique as equipment... a light touch is your friend.
Al

Thanks for your methods, I can try most of this, Vadim sold me his felt wheel just before brexit and I purchased a couple of bottles of his diamond spray which I have plenty left. I dont have 2 leather wheels and the one I have is loaded with green paste, ive pretty much watched and copied Vadim purchasing a lot of what he used to use so I think I just need more practice.

Hello Alan,

I also had the problem to read the KS-123 scale (Pic_1). So I purchased a small but bright LED light (Pic_2). Now I can read the scale of the KS-123 easily (Pic_3).

Regards,
DrilonYou cannot view this attachment.You cannot view this attachment.You cannot view this attachment.

Hello Alan,

I also had the problem to read the KS-123 scale (Pic_1). So I purchased a small but bright LED light (Pic_2). Now I can read the scale of the KS-123 easily (Pic_3).

Regards,
DrilonYou cannot view this attachment.You cannot view this attachment.You cannot view this attachment.

what a great idea! Flashlights are another addiction of mine, only a mild one compared to some thankfully. I have one a very old light from Maplins that works very well, I am just going to have to be a little more carefull.

Did you upload those pics from your PC or from a hosting site? I cant seem to add a pic from my PC in "Quick Reply" and cant see a "Go Advanced" option like other forums have.

To add my $.02 to the answers to the initial question, my answer is "yes, probably". An easy way of knowing is to mark with a sharpie the place where you take you measurement on the BESS test medium. Then you can examine this area carefully with your microscope. If there was a burr, you'll see a dent on your edge.

Thanks, something ive been doing yes, ive gone through all the clips that came with the Bess and running through the spindle now but ive only ever had one dent, surprised I had to grind it out. I think Im dealing with a very fine burr at the 120-150 level, after 5 years of sharpening Im starting again now I have the Bess, I think Its a great and very worthwhile purchase, I will persevere.