Messages

As advised above, the angle between the stone grinding surface and the side of the stone is irrelevant.

Before you do any more truing up of the stone surface, with the machine stopped, lower the universal support bar until it is almost touching the surface of the stone. Do not apply pressure to the bar when lowering it, just use the threaded adjuster for the last part for fine control.

Then get down and looking against the light, check if the surface of the stone is parallel to the underside edge of the support bar. (At the moment ignore the few millimetres from the edge of the stone where you say there is a different colour.) Slowly rotate the stone and check that the stone surface is still parallel to the bar.

If the stone surface is bang on parallel to the mounting bar, then you have the beginner's problem of mastering the grinding of a chisel.

If the stone surface is not parallel to the bar, then you will have to re-true the surface using the TT50. Do this very lightly otherwise you may be taking off more surface than you need, and it ends up in the bottom of the water trough.

If the majority of the stone surface is parallel to the bar apart from a few millimetres near the edge, do not worry about that at the moment, you have plenty of surface to use for chisel sharpening. The idea is to get your chisel grinding technique improved first.

Once you have most of the stone surface parallel to the mounting bar, I would advise you look up the information on this Forum under "Hand Tool Woodworking" and the entry "Newbie needs tips on keeping things square." There is advice there plus other references to entries on how to get chisels and plane blades square.

Through all this re-truing and chisel grinding, a light touch should be used. There is no need to apply pressure to try and compensate for things which are not properly understood.

Hi Ken - I'm still vertical and breathing! Not much happening on the Tormek line but I have a stack of chisels and some plane blades now needing attention.

Comments for tgbto  - as KenS has advised others many times previously, start your learning curve using a 3/4" or 1" chisel. Do not start with your expensive chisels! Use a cheapy.

Fit chisel to SE-76 or SE-77 jig with say 2" protrusion. Set the angle as per the book. Mark the area to be ground with black marker. Gently start grinding. Do not rush. Do not get caught up in too much precision initially. Do not press too hard. You have a Tormek so that your finger joints will not suffer!

After a few revolutions of the wheel, check what is happening at the ground edge. Is it square or cock-eyed? Look at how the chisel is meeting the wheel. Try and understand why the grinding is occurring as viewed. (Plenty explanations in the previously referenced posts.)

Then why not try a wee trial?

Adjust the chisel in the jig, so that it meets the wheel with a few degrees angular offset ie not square to the wheel. Apply a grind and recheck the outcome. You will now definitely have an un-square grind.

Now consider what you have to do to correct this deliberate error. Apply correction. Apply black marker, try a grind. Apply more correction if necessary. Keep practising this until you become relaxed that you can apply an error and then its correction.

You will note that I have not said anything about using a square to measure accuracy at chisel end. Use your eyes. Black marker and eyeballs are your best tools at the moment. Once you are comfortable how to make corrections, then you can start getting pernickety with the introduction of a square for accuracy of squareness. Then decide angle of grind you want to apply, and single or double bevels.

Also get used to using the honing wheel. In use you will just need to polish up the bevel frequently to regain sharpness. Re-grinding is not that frequent. Somewhere in the past Herman included magnified pictures of a ground edge showing difference between hand and ground edges.

Before you start to grind your expensive chisels, flatten the backs of the chisels, and polish the back. (See referenced posts). You only need to concentrate on the end of the chisel not the whole back. Once flattened and polished, you should not need to touch the back for a long time, apart from removing a burr when sharpening.

Some of my chisels are ground at 25 degrees - usually for paring and fine work.
Some are ground at 30 degrees - usually kept for chopping out with a mallet
A few have double bevels 25&30 degrees.

I rarely use a square for checking the squareness. The fact I may have a miniscule out of squareness will not affect my work. I can introduce plenty of other factors!

May I recommend that you do a search in the Forum for "Square Edge Issues with SE-76" (Applies to Se-77 although screw adjustment built in).

Plenty of information there on multiple posts and the causes of problems. Don't get too bogged down.

As KenS has advised, the best way forward is to use a black marker on the surface being ground, keep checking it keep checking it, keep checking it, and you will spot when things start going out of square. Marker pen and eyeballs are the best way to see and learn how to correct any problems.

I have had the same issue with my T7 - as posted some years ago (buzzed like an angry bee)

It is some form of resonance being amplified by the tank. Take the tank off, little noise.

I tried several things, like tying down the outer edge of tank to frame using masking tape; rubber pads between tank mounting lugs and frame. changing bench/table on which it was used; operated whilst level or at a small angle; cleaned up the drive wheel surface etc; all of which were noticeably ineffective!

I don't use my T7 very much these days, and it's some while since it was last in operation, and I'm sure the last time I used it was noticeably quieter than previous!

I apologise that I have nothing concrete to offer as a solution, but sympathies that you are not alone.

Thanks for the link Ken.

I have just watched that video, plus those for diamond plates and leather stropping. All very clear and what anyone starting out (or needing a refresher!) should look at.

I think I may have mis-read Bob Jones original query. If he means the type of small spokeshave blades ( eg as fitted to Stanley or Preston and similar spokeshaves) which are flat blades without tangs, then I had the same problem. In the end, made a steel jig which fits the SE-76/Se-77. Its idea and development with a manufacturing drawing is shown in another post:-

https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=1620.0

Here's a link to how I tackled spokeshave blades on my Tormek:-

https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=1656.0

Somewhere in the depths of the forum, I also made a jig suitable for a Miller Falls circular spokeshave blade.

Good morning 10 Fingers

You are not alone getting up this learning curve; there's plenty previous advice on this forum about getting chisels or plane blades square.

I would suggest that you stay with the bevel edge chill and use that one solely until to get the square process understood - ie there's tweaks required which are to overcome the live situation you are in. Don't keep changing chisels as you are starting afresh. One of your photos, the non-bevel chisel, is like one of mine, and the blade as some minor twist and bend in the other plane that no matter what I try it will never be square at the sharpened end.

When mounting the bevel chisel in the SE-76, with say a 45 - 50mm projection, turn the chisel so that you are looking at the end about to be sharpened. Look up the blade of the chisel, ensure that the moving surface of the Se-76 is clamped - not too tight, only enough to hold the blade in place - and that the surface of the moving part of the SE-76 is flush across the chisel. If it clamps to the chisel at an angle, it will introduce a small annoying twist.

There are angular issues, in two planes, involved in trying to chisels square at the end - see the link below where I have tried to explain this in drawing form.

https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3992.0

The main thing I would suggest you do initially, is ignore your measuring square and use a marker pen and eye ball, and make small amounts of grinding with very frequent visual inspection, and with subtle small adjustments to finger pressure, mounting of blade in the SE-76, until you understand how to correct for off-square grinding.

Yes Elden, I do sharpen my plane blades now and then. Likewise I only use them now and then! However the amount of woodworking undertaken has now become more then than now!

I'm now at the stage where one has to balance the projected amount of exertion against perceived muscle toning and recovery time! Or maybe I'm just a bit more wise.

Glad to hear that Dusmif is getting up the chisel learning curve and happy with his progress.

I was expecting to see photographs of hand plane blades, not a planer thicknesser (or jointer).

Although I have never attempted planer blades, I would be aiming for similar to the results shown above by Scott and his plane blade. However, Dusmif, if the blades meet your requirements, it's not for me to criticise, but I would encourage you to aim higher next time.

I really feel like making a complaint!

Imagine taking one's wife's can opening chisel and turning it into something sharp! What's the world coming to? What's the poor wife going to do now? Her can opening confidence will be severely dented. There was no information whether the errant husband concerned supplied his wife with a suitable replacement tool.

Good to see that Scott has progressed to plane blades - photos show good level bevel grinding, and no great striations. I generally do my plane blades (for both steel bodied and old wooden bodies types) at 25 degrees as I usually do small amounts of finishing rather than large amounts of stock removal.

Also how is Dismuf getting on after his initial enquiry? Is he getting up the learning curve?

Hi Alf

I support Ken's suggestion - you should start with a wider chisel - 1" (25mm). (This is because narrow chisels are prone to rotate in both planes as detailed below.)

Also start afresh - The first thing to do as advised by Jan above - is put the USB in the vertical position, drop it down until it is just about touching the stone. Look between USB and the stone against the light. Rotate the stone by hand to show it is consistent around its circumference. If the stone surface and the USB are not exactly parallel and consistent, you need to true up the stone and sort that out. If parallel, and the stone has a slightly rounded corner on one side, don't worry about that just now.

Once the stone is dressed, there are a few things which mess up getting a square edge on a chisel.

See the attached sketches to illustrate the following explanation.

1) See "Chisel angular error" sketch

This shows the chisel in the horizontal plane.

Left hand view shows the ideal ie USB axis and stone surface are parallel. Chisel and jig all align so this is the perfect arrangement.

Middle view shows the USB axis and stone surface are parallel, but the chisel is incorrectly aligned in the jig in the horizontal plane, so an angular grind will result.

Right hand view shows chisel mounted square in the jig, but the axis of USB and stone surface are out of kilter in horizontal plane, so angular grind will result.

Note:- The correct alignment is not necessarily square in the jig, but square at the stone surface.

Angular error may be corrected with the SE77 as it has an adjustment facility. The earlier SE76 requires operator manual correction.

2) See " Chisel rotational error" sketch

This shows end views of the chisel in the vertical plane.

Views are looking at the bevel end of the chisel ie the sharp edge facing you. I have drawn the chisel as a rectangle for simplicity.

The left hand sketch shows the ideal alignment so that the bevel ground will be parallel and even across the chisel.

If the chisel is mounted square in the jig, but the chisel has a twist along its length, this will introduce a rotational error at the bevel end of the chisel. This results in a skewed or cockeyed grind as illustrated in the right hand sketch.

A skewed grind will also occur on a non-twisted chisel if the axis of the USB and stone surface are out of parallel in the vertical plane.

3) If both angular and rotational errors are present, you will have quite a problem!

4) Errors similar to the above can be introduced if the operator leans heavily of the USB or on the side of a chisel. Apply light force to the chisel - firm finger pressure is all that is required.

Lightly stroke the chisel back and forth across the full width of the stone, keep checking the grind, and try and understand what may be causing any errors, and how you can correct errors. Hence the recommendation to get up the learning curve using 1" chisels.

If you start forcing it, you will apply uneven loads and get cockeyed results.

5) Before starting to grind the bevel, apply a marker pen to front and back faces as this immediately shows how the grind is going, and the effect of any corrections.

Use your eyes, as difficult to get a small square across the chisel end without removing from the jig, and then you have to go through the whole set up again, so more chance of error introduction.

I have some very small squares, but with practice I get more than adequate results eyeballing the grinding and re-applying marker pen,, and only using a small a square when I want precision for a specific job.

6) As Ken has already advised, keep the chisel protrusion from the jig short. The maximum I have used is 50mm. The greater the protrusion, the greater the angular offset at the chisel end.

7) If you sign into the Forum, and search using "square edge"', go back a few years in the results and you will see there are plenty of posts covering this topic (mine particularly as I struggled up the learning curve!).

8) As you have realised, flatten the back of the chisel before any grinding. Do that for say 1 - 1.5" up the back of the chisel. Get it nice and flat and polished. You should not need to touch the back for a long time.

9) Watch the video by Jeff Farris - see youtube - Jeff Farris Tormek.

10) One you start getting square edges, then improve your results by introducing the use of the stone re-grader so grinding finer striations; how to remove edge burrs and use of the honing wheel (without rounding over the edge).

Robin

With regard to Ken's original question, I understand that 'grit' is defined by the size of the particle on an abrasive sheet (which in turn affects the number of particles per square metre or square foot).

However, there are different abrasive materials - eg sandpaper; garnet paper; emery paper; aluminium oxide, silicon carbide etc.

Although two different types of abrasive sheet may have the same grit rating, they will perform differently on a given application.

The particles for some abrasives break down when used, and the performance of the 'broken' particle is dependent on the type of abrasive, and this also affects how long it will last.

Another factor is whether the sheet uses closed (abrasive covering all of the sheet) or open (some empty space on the sheet). Closed is preferred for hand sanding, but can clog quicker than open; and open is preferred for power sanding.

Accordingly the various type of abrasive sheets on the market are designed for different applications (wood; metal; paint removal etc).

This would, in my opinion, explain the difference between the diamond and SG wheels. It comes down to the type of crystals/particles used and their inherent shapes. I would expect diamond particles to have different shapes to aluminium oxide particles.

In reply to the original questioner, may I suggest that you keep it simple until well experienced with the Tormek, and then move on to some of the other views regarding methodology, standards, different types of stones, and bevel measurement.

I do some of my chisels at 25º and some with a secondary bevel at 30º. I even have some with a single 30º bevel. (Just depends on my mood and urgency!) The 25º I use for paring or other neat work. I use the 30º for use with a mallet. I do my plane blades at 25º.

I was taught that applying a 30º secondary bevel was the age old method - and this was to ease sharpening as the whole bevel did not need sharpening and it also reduced the rate at which the chisel metal was consumed.

From the outset, the priority is to flatten the back and polish it up prior to making any bevel. I flatten on waterstones, and then polish freehand on the Tormek honing wheel. The back should then not need touching for a long time.

For my bevels, I used to work through coarse stone, regrade to fine, then polish on the honing wheel. Nice sharp edges and polished surfaces (see previous posts by Herman Trivilino showing striations when viewed under a magnifier.)

However I then realised that I was spending a lot of time reaching these high standards and then smacking the chisel with a mallet. Not much point in that!

What I usually do now, is make my bevel and then re-grade the stone to fine, and using light force, I can polish the bevel to a standard which more than meets my needs - usually for cabinet work. Thus I do not need to change the SE76 jig and universal bar to use the LA220 honing wheel. It's a pain resetting the jig every few minutes.

To hone off the burr, I use a leather honing strap (leather glued to flat piece of wood), or free hand on the honing wheel taking care not to round over the edge, or strop it across the edge of my hand.

Whilst using a chisel, if I think it's going off, and I don't have another of the same size to hand, it is easy to quickly tickle up the edge on the Tormek and get back on the job.

As sharpening experience improves, then understanding the topics frequently posted on this forum - and there is a lot of clever stuff here - try implementing some of these advanced techniques as you find applicable to your needs.

Yes Ken, very interesting - and the continuation of Barnsley learned skills continues

I have visited the Edward Barnsley Workshop - which is run by a trust and has a significant training remit - and the quality of the work is outstanding. See https://www.barnsley-furniture.co.uk

There are several other workshops and training schools in the UK (and no doubt elsewhere) and to come across top quality work emphasises what can be achieved especially with sharp tools and practice.

I'm very impressed. Well Done.