Messages

Never from grabbing, but from inattention and/or stupidity...

Tormek Bloopers anyone??? July 19, 2018, 05:09:17 PM

Rick

[modified by the same machinist]

I believe that jigs, especially knife jigs, should be as simple as possible. Having an adjustable SVM-45 just seems too complicated to me.

Mike's design was brilliant and I'm really sorry it never made it into production.  I do agree, in one respect, that it was too complicated, but only in regard as reflected in the cost of production.

Using Wootz' recommendations as a guide, the majority of my kitchen knives fall within the acceptable thickness range of the unaltered SVM-45. A couple of my thicker chef knives are slightly thicker than that range, as is my Mora Garberg. However; these all fall within the range of my SVM-45 with the Wootz recommended .5mm milled area. For the odd knife, which I do not presently own or plan to own, I also have an SVM-45 milled to 1.0 mm and a KJ-45.

It seems to me that my unmodified SVM-45 will cover most of my needs, with an assist from the .5mm milled SVM-45 and KJ -45 when needed. Am I missing something?

Ken

PS I also have a set of feeler gages modified by the same machinist if I should feel the need for tighter precision.

That would be me.  I also think Wootz's design for modifying the SVM jigs and use of shims was brilliant.  I did this to a couple of my own SVMs and did the ones for Ken and modified the set of feeler gauges for him. I have never tried using the modified jigs without the shims, but feel they are simple enough to use that it is a shame to not.  A standard feeler gauge set is modified by shortening to be only slightly widher than the SVM-45 jig.  Standard width feeler gauges work fine on the SVM-140 jig (have not modfied the -140). The table of shims per is shown below.

Back when Wootz's modifications were first introduced, some were interested in having me do the modifications.  I wasn't able to do them at that time, but have considered it feasible more recently...  ...at least until I sold my house last week and am in a crash program of moving my household and workshop.  Once things settle down and get my shop back in operation, I could considered it again. 

Rick

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So I wonder if you could give a detailed overview of your technique Rick, when using the felt wheel with 1 micron diamonds?

Happy to try.  Pretty simple and I've posted on it a few times before, peripherally to other discussions. 

Nominally, whatever grinding wheels, SG, SB or CBN/Diamonds, both followed by the SJ at the same grinding angle.  There have been times when I did not follow with the SJ, but not often  Then setting the angle 1°-2° higher for deburring on the rock hard felt. I apply fresh past before starting a sharpening session, but keep is sparse and spread out as much as possible.  Sharpening sessions for me usually amount to 4-5, up to a dozen knives. 

I use the SVM jigs with two milled down, 0.5mm and 1mm, as Vadim did, with shims for centering.  Most of my SVM are not milled but I use the shims to improve centering for the knives thin enough for it to work.  I have a KJ jig but truly hate the loss of adjustable projection, so I just don't use it. 

As mentioned, I use diamond paste rather than spray, simply because this was worked out with Vadim about the time he first came out with the deburring book and before he went from pastes to spays.  I bought a full range of pastes at that time, but setttled very quickly on just using the 1µ, probably in large part because I have only one felt wheel and the SJ is functionally the same as using 5µ diamonds.  I do not have a set routine of working only one side and then the other or number of passes per side, more by intuition perhaps. 

Final treatment is stropping on dry, hanging leather (the kangaroo tail Vadim sold).

Back at that time, I bought several paper wheels and was going to try going the multiple-grits/paper wheels like Vadim used, but found the above routine worked to my satisfaction.  I have been able to achieve sub-100 BESS readings, but never gotten that close to the 50 range.

I still use a phone app for determining USB setting and always use an FVB or MB-102 for deburring.  I use the distance from the USB to the grinding wheel approach (rather than USB distance to the machine case) - much faster, easier and in my opinion more accurate.  I DO grind on the SJ edge-leading and have never had a problem with catching or grabbing. 

Rick 

... and not and not nearly as...

... and repeating yourself... 

Not really... a felt wheel removes the burr and cleans up the edge (and can polish), while an SJ wheel will refine the edge and polish the bevel, but still leaves a burr that needs to be removed.

I'm going to be a bit more emphatic.  Definitely not, for the reasons cbwx34 says.  Following Knife Grinders deburring principles, whether I use the SJ wheel or not, I always finish using a rock hard felt wheel with 1µ diamonds (I use paste rather than spray) at some "degree" of higher angle, usually 1°-2°. 

But, now that I mention the higher angle for deburring, I'm not recalling at the moment if anyone has tried to deburr using only the SJ at one of those "higher" angles (someone must have).  I suspect it would not work to the same degree due the significant difference in abrasiveness, SJ ~ 4,000-5,000 grit, 1µ ~ 14,000 grit. 

...snip... The threaded rod gets in the way when using regular size paring knives. ...snip...

Was that with or without the MB-102 or an FVB?  I've heard of that without these, but I thought using either solved that conflict. 

A bit off-topic, but related, sort of... 

I was part of a discussion not long ago about web thinning and how as a drill is shortened, for whatever reason, the web is thicker.  And there may have been a discussion of how the web of smaller diameter drills can be thicker as well.  I was puzzled by this, but did seem to find it true when working with drill smaller than 1/8" on the Meteor "micro" drill sharpener. 

Just this morning I was watching a mrpete222 YT video on web thinning vs split pointing and there was a photo showing how the web thickness does increase down the length of a drill.  Just sharing that image as confirmation. 

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For those who have experience with this jig : how easy is it to replicate a protrusion distance with it along with a SVM jig ? Simple enough or is it easier to take a separate measurement using the wood-block method ?

Thanks !

There's no difference in using the KJ vs the SVM jig to set up the KS-123.

BTW, for a bit of trivia, the KS handles a Projection Distance of 122-158 mm.

These are questions I'm going to be interested in exploring, soon.  I picked up the new angle setting tool at a retail store recently, but I'm not at home, so haven't been able to try it out.  I have a KJ jig but have not been a fan of it yet due to the inability to adjust the protrusion (using the moveable stop as on the SVM jigs).  I'm glad to see the projection range values for the KS-123, I've been wondering about that. I read folks saying the KS is "fast and easy" to use, but unless the knife projection is exactly the same from one knife to another, one has to change the USB height for each different projection.  I realize it may be possible to set projections the same using the KJ jigs, within a limited range, but it is just not the same as the SVM where the range is much wider. 

I have 6 SVMs (4 45s and 2 140s) so can set up, up to six knives with exactly the same projection and run through all six, and can run all six across four grinding wheels (180 CBN, DC, DF and DE) without changing the USB height.  That is fast and easy and will be what I compare with when trying out the combination of the KJ and KS. 

Just out of curiousity, has anyone determined the range of blade widths that can be set to the same projection using the KJ jigs?  It would be a matter of how deeply the spine of each blade is gripped in the KJ jaws, correct?  Can't be very much and still have a good grip on the narrower blades. 

For anyone in the Portland, Oregon area, Woodcrafters, in NE Portland, have a couple more of these jigs in stock. I picked one up and cancelled my order with Sharpening Supplies (They said they were going to ship sometime next week.)

I would not do it.  I use all three diamond wheels with the Tormek ACC juice.  When I switch to the SJ wheel, I pour the ACC water into a jar and replace it in the trough with plain water.  The SJ wheel gives off so much slurry, I do not want it contaminating the ACC water.  When done with the SJ, I toss it, rinse the trough and if I'm going to use the diamond wheels again, return the ACC water.  Don't know what the HoneRite costs, but I would not want to be consuming it by using a new batch every time I put the diamond wheels on. 

Both have legs which are 145mm long.  The difference is in the top bar

• US-105 = 305mm
• US-103 = 295mm

As noted, the US-103 is 10mm shorter to accommodate the 200mm grindstone which is 10mm thinner than the 250mm grindstone.

10mm difference in length???

250mm - 200mm = 50mm

Those tools are really cool!  Thanks for sharing.

Agreed, and fills the gap of less than 1/8" dia. that the DBS can't do. I hope to try making a holder/collet for doing up to 3/16" or 1/4" on it.  But...  I have yet to seriously try adapting the Starrett pin collets to the DBS drill holder for the smaller sizes, even 1/8". 

I see a substantial improvement in precision of the Meteor workings compared to the Tormek.  The DBS is quite excellent, much better than most other options in the price range (and lower) but there is a lack of rigidity and repeatability due to the suspension method (USB).  The alignment microscope of the Meteor is significantly better as well. 

Rick

Point angle, relief angle are directly indicated by graduated scales (red ellipses).  Point angles available are quite wide.  Clearance angles up to 20º.  There is a lever-actuated swivel function to put the drill into grinding position, with a positive stop.  It appears there may be options for this stop as it rotates on a shaft, but I haven't figured this out yet. 

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Three point geometries are possible, traditional 2-facet (trypical retail), 4-facet and web-thinned.  Pictured is a 1/8" drill, first as 2-facet and then as 4-facet.  The manual describes web-thinned as used only with the 2-facet point and only for the much smaller diameter drills because the webs make up a larger proportion of the overall point.  Oh, and it will do both Right and Left twist drills. 

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Shown are the 2- and 4- facet points.  Primary facets were done at 9º.  Secondary facets were done by changing the clearance angle to 23º.  I haven't seriously tried the split pointing, but what little playing with it I did, trying to figure it out, indicates it could be really sweet. 

Rick

I've recently come into a fairly unique, high-end, "micro" drill bit grinder.  Swiss-made, Meteor CH 1, for drills 0.008" to 0.125" (~0.2 to ~3.2 mm) diameter.  These appear to be quite rare.  I've only been able to find information on seemingly more recent or larger capacity (up to 6mm, 0.236") version2, Meteor KSB 3 and KSB 6.  Lathes UK does have limited information, but it is the most extensive that I've found.  Spare parts appear to be equally rare; I've found only on potential source and they have not responded to an inquiry. 

Gringing wheels are about 3" dia., some are carborundum and some are diamond.  Pictured is the diamond, think it is 400 grit.  I have found only two of the KSB models for sale on eBay, from $1200 - $1800.  The two units I have were given to me free.  Only one is complete and fully functional.  The other is in good shape, just not much moves, so full disassembly and cleaning may be necessary. 

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Drill bits are held in a small collet that indexes at 180º.  Indexing groove visible at lower right end of the collet assembly.  Alignment is similar to that of the Tormek DBS-22, but much higher magnification and apparent accuracy. 

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I've had to work with the alignment to get things to work well, which is not well described in the manual.  Manual I have is for the KSB 3 model but seems to be identical to the "CH 1" model I have.

Grinding of a facet.  Works extremely well, fast and easy.  Tight and precise with minimal movement. 

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Reached limit of photos for a single post, so more to follow. 

Rick

...snip..
This video demonstrates how to get low BESS readings using standard Tormek equipment.

https://youtu.be/UckPmizllk0?si=jb6f3UwgOOq8JTFC

Please note at just after 1:15 the targeted bevel angle setting used on the applet, 10 degrees. (10 degrees per side). What bevel angle are you using when you sharpen?

...snip...
Ken

...snip..
If it is in the sharpening, one thing you might try, instead of changing the sharpening angle, adjust the honing angle a bit higher, and see if makes a difference.

Couple things. 

1) Honing angle that I saw in that video was 12º DPS rather than 10º.  However, I do not think that what the angle is, is as relevant as the differential between grinding and honing angles, per what follows. 
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2) I definitely agree with raising the honing angle for typical home use knives (which is all that I have), based on Vadim's other work regarding techniques for deburring steels of different hardness.  While Vadim's video was intended to show what is possible with standard Tormek equipment, it appears to also reflect what I assume is the Tormek method of using the same ange for honing.  The reference video appears to have been posted in 2019, which is AFTER the fourth edition of Vadim's deburring book where he discusses the benefits of using varying honing angles for different types of steels. 
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It was demonstrative that he was able to achieve 75 BESS by using the same angle.  I am curious what he could have demonstrated if he had used an angle more specific to the type of steel being sharpened Maybe he did without saying anything about it, so maybe it wasn't relevant, but it would have been informative for him to have mentioned it (unless he did at some point that I didn't see, as I didn't watch the video from start to finish).

Rick