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I buy Rob's position on this one. The " solution " that Johansson offered up seems needlessly complicated ....certainly time consumptive....and not a really good approach to the issue. The Tormek line of knife jigs, in general, have some flaws that inhibit their usefulness. Before the bullets start flying, I want to acknowledge that Jeff ( and many others ) have worked wonders using these jigs. But those with real mechanical minds must certainly be able to come up with better designs. I applaud Ionut and Herman for their contributions in this matter. The ultimate answer to a better system may well evolve around their ideas.

BTW...Herman, I'm a buyer for your jig if you take it to a marketable state.

Tom

 I think artisans ( and each of us, in our own way and fashion, are members of that group ) tend to be thoughtful people, considerate of others, and open to the challenges of varied disciplines. I think Ken's observations are valid and pertinent. Good assessments, Ken.....Shirley's your aunt.

Tom

I'm much more inclined to use and develop my skills using Herman's jig ideas than I am to get Tormek's SVM-00. I applaud Tormek for listening and addressing some shortcomings with their small knife jig. On the other hand, though, the SVM-00 still has notable deficiencies...or at least significant inconveniences. I'm anxious to hear from you guys that will buy and use the SVM-00.

Tom

I mentioned in a prior post that one should expect to pay ( retail ) from $250 to $600 for an excellent pair of forged salon scissors. Scissors made with the casting process can, and do, sell for considerably less. I'll occasionally drop into a local beauty supply chain store and I'll see low-end salon scissors selling from $30 - $35 on up. This stuff is pure junk....usually has very poor quality tensioning device pieces and the sharp edge ( if you can even get it that way ) will seemingly blow off in a strong wind. The bulk of what this chain will sell goes for $ 50 to $100 dollars. I wouldn't waste my money on the stuff but some folks don't have other options in their budget.

The high end of the market can, as we've seen, reach esoteric levels....can't really justify their cost, but, there's that old ego critter lurking around and he has a terrific bite.

Tom

Mark,

A flat, abrasive disk, by and of itself, could function well in this case.....provided you had some control mechanism that would let you reliably control the bevel being cut. Trying to free-hand this task complicates it quite a lot....I wouldn't want to try it. Others, with more free-hand skills, may not mind giving it a go.

My salon scissor equipment is unsuitable for two reasons:

1. My machine requires that the scissors be taken apart....the blades separated, one from the other. That's possible with some of the pinking shears I've seen, but not possible with others.

2. The bigger issue, and the one that really prohibits using my equipment for this, is that of space constraints. My equipment was designed and constructed to accommodate scissor blades of much smaller dimensions than the pinking shears I've seen. There's just no room to work with blades of the size of most pinking shears.

My two efforts with the Tormek in handling the " pinkers "turned out well. I proceeded as if my life depended on it....and, knowing one of these old gals, it may well have.

Tom

Mark...

I don't think I can add much to Jeff's post. I've only done two pair of pinking shears....both on the Tormek. My salon scissor equipment is not suitable to this work. Keeping the original bevel on both blades is instrumental to success with these things. I did use the marker in both cases. I don't remember the exact number but the 80 degree angle seems close.

If you're not careful, you can screw these things up. Take your time, though, and use the marker. You should be alright. If you mess up, plan on leaving town. I think it's an unholy alliance these ladies have with their pinking shears.

Tom

You guys may want to consider using a product I use all the time in my scissor sharpening business. It's called Wahl Clipper Oil. It's carried by all hair salon supply houses. Locally, I get mine at a company called Sally's. You can get it in a 4 oz. plastic bottle that has a handy, pointed application nozzle. I used it on my honing wheel and it worked great. I started out using it sparingly ( I had read of over-oiling issues on the forum ) and worked my way up to the proper saturation level.

Tom

Tom,

Ever thought of making a mod for the articulated arm?   With that fine selection of abrasives and buffers It seems like you should be able to thin a small knife edge down to the angstrom level, and polish it to a mirror finish!

Mark.

I wouldn't begin to know how to mod the arm. Nor do I have the fabricating skills ( or equipment ), even if I wanted to give it a shot. I can assure you, though, that when working with the salon scissors, I get edges of frightening sharpness and a polished finish you have to see to believe.

Tom 

Tom,

Not to redirect the thread, but I'm curious; have you ever taken a knife to your Rapid Edge flat disks?

Mark

Hi Mark,

The quick answer is that the Rapid Edge machine does not well accommodate working with knives. The principal reason being that the articulated arm, that is instrumental in gripping and aligning the scissor blades on a consistent basis, is not suited to working with knives. Even if it were, there are working-space design features that would limit the use to very small knife blades. Just for kicks, I have taken a few small pocket knives and worked with them on a free-hand basis. As with any free-hand approach, getting the same grind angle on each side of the blade can be problematical. Frankly, I find free-handing to be much easier on the Tormek and, in addition, the Tormek can accommodate a much, much larger range of blade sizes.

I consider myself to be average, at best, in my free-handing capabilities. That's why I'm so keenly interested in the work you guys are doing in developing an apparatus that's reall helpful in working with small blades.

Take care,

Tom   

I've got to say, the general activity level on the forum has taken a quantum leap forward in the last several months. I've seen times when it might go days between postings.

Since my use of the Tormek is limited to working with knives ( and, even then, on a very limited basis ) I don't have much opportunity to add meaningful comments. Yet I find that time spent on the forum, listening to all sorts of issues, problems, and solutions, greatly expands my overall knowledge of sharpening. I'll hear something that may benefit me in a totally unexpected manner. The net result is that I'm far more educated as a consequence of my, mostly silent, presence on the forum. My sincere appreciation goes to all you guys for your generous giving of time and info.

BTW...one thing I'm keenly interested in, and follow closely, is the development of a knife jig ( such as being worked on by Herman and others ). I'm about ready to get an aluminum plate and start fiddling with one along the lines of Herman's.

You folks keep up the good work....please. It helps more of us less accomplished souls than you probably realize.

Tom

Here's my personal take on this whole price/quality issue regarding salon scissors. I should note that I don't sell scissors in my business. I'm inundated with suppliers wanting me to sell their products but I have no interest in getting into that arena. I'm aware that I'm passing on a potentially large income stream but I just don't want the extra complication that dimension would bring to my operations.

It's my personal stylist that owns the $4,000 pair of scissors. It rankles her a bit but I tell her that scissors that cost that much are nothing but an " ego " purchase. And that's true.

grepper....you mention the 440C grade of steel. Actually, that grade of steel is pretty low on the scale of quality steels used in salon scissors. Currently, the highest quality ( and most expensive ) steel being used is identified as ATS 314 and comes from Japan. Let's create the following assumptions:

1. Use ATS 314 in the product blades ( forged, of course )
2. Use the finest parts made.....aside from the blade. I'm talking about the pieces in the tensioning devices and any other extraneous extras ( tangs, etc )
3. Employ the most expensive manufacturing process around ( a group of specialist, each with their own area of expertise....often referred to as the " sensai " method ).

Under these assumptions, a 5'' to 6" pair of scissors should cost no more than $800 to $900......absolute tops. Spend more than that and you enter the world of the " ego " purchase. Now, the ego is very important to all of us. It's important to understand, though, that when you spend these big numbers for scissors, you're not getting any finer cutting instrument than the person who spent the far lesser amount.

I'm always asked for buying advice by my clients. For those that want the most bang for the buck and don't want to get into the esoteric world, I suggest the following:

Always stay with a forged product ( as opposed to a cast product ). Stay with a product coming from Japan, South Korea, or Taiwan. Plan on spending from around $300 to $600. You'll get an excellent product that, with good maintenance, will last for years.

Well, Rob....just one.

Two young gentlemen stylist were involved. On prior visits to this particular salon, I had noticed that there was a hint of rancor between these two. But they were both decent folks that I had done work for and I happened to like both of them. To myself, I referred to them as "magic" men....I don't think I ever saw either one of their feet touch the floor as they flitted around.

On this occasion, I was helping a gal who had incurred a bad nick in her favorite pair of scissors. I became aware of some raised voices between these two guys. Upon looking up, I see this one dude grab this dainty umbrella he had sauntered in with ( rainy day ) and he commenced to whack the other guy across the arm. Whereupon, the other guy grabbed a broom that was handy and made several good blows to the first guy's butt. The first guy proceeded to let everyone in the shop know that the other guy was nothing but a cheap whore....all the while screeching as he received more butt blows from the broom. In short order, it was all over. The guy swinging the umbrella landed a solid whack to the other's knee....sending him fleeing from the salon in tears.

There were only two clients in the salon at the time and after a moment of stunned silence by all present, everybody went back to whatever they were doing.

You guys wouldn't believe some of the stories I could tell. But I'm like the 3 famous monkeys.....see no evil, hear no evil, and speak no evil. I will say this; hair stylists are an extremely interesting crowd to be around. There's never a dull moment.

If the stylists ever learned to quit dropping their scissors, I might go out of business. Blade damage almost always results from dropping and in some cases it spells doom for the scissors.

Hi grepper,

The machine I use is manufactured by Rapid Edge. I went through a rather exhaustive process of research and education about the whole industry of sharpening salon scissors before I committed to any device or system. It was not a decision I made lightly as my total outlay for the package was $21,000. That included the machine AND TRAINING WITH THE MACHINE DESIGNER for a week....on a one-on-one basis. Frankly, there are certainly other equipment options on the market, but I never found one that even approached the quality and capabilities of the Rapid Edge offering. Like I said, I wanted to give myself the best chance possible to succeed in this business and the machine and training by Rapid Edge is absolutely the best out there.

I've seen a number of definitions thrown around relative to scissors and shears. The one most knowledgeable people in my industry accept is as follows:

Both scissors and shears have two "rings ". One ring accommodates the thumb and the other ring accommodates a finger or fingers. In the case of scissors, only one finger will fit into the finger ring. With shears, the finger ring will accept two ( or more ) fingers at the same time. Some scissors will have an extension ( called a " tang ") jutting off of the finger ring that allows for the placement of another finger for greater control by the stylist. Designed for one finger in the finger ring....it's a scissor. Designed for two or more fingers in the finger ring....it's a shear.

I've used the scissor jig with great success on household scissors. As opposed to doing knives where I prefer to work away from the edge, when using the scissor jig I work into the edge. I seem to get better results that way. Slow and easy is the key to getting good results.

As I once mentioned on another thread, the main thrust of my business is the sharpening of salon shears. That's a whole different world from any other type of sharpening I do. I kind of chuckled at Herman's remarks about the cost of some salon shears. Just last week, I set a new personal record for the cost of a pair of shears I was sharpening.....$4,000. Prior to that, $3,500 was the high for me. These are extreme examples but it's fairly routine for me to service shears costing $500 to $1,000 and those in the $1,000 to $2,000 range are becoming much more common.

As I, and others, have mentioned previously, the Tormek machine is woefully inadequate for use on these salon shears. By the same token, the specialized equipment I use for the salon work is pretty much useless in any other sort of sharpening.

An interesting note....in the world of hair stylists and salons, the terms "scissors" and "shears" are used interchangeably. I do it myself but find I use the term " shears " more frequently. By strict definition, though, all these tools are technically scissors.

Tom