Tormek Community Forum

In the Shop => Hand Tool Woodworking => Topic started by: Sir Amwell on November 06, 2022, 10:02:50 PM

Title: How to make chisel edges square
Post by: Sir Amwell on November 06, 2022, 10:02:50 PM
Hi everyone. I am new to chisel sharpening though I have good experience sharpening knives on a Tormek t8.
I have chisels to sharpen which are not square at the edge. I suspect due to incorrect previous sharpenings. How can I correct this before actually sharpening?
I have diamond wheels, SE77 jig and MB100.
I tried to attach a photo from my library but it says the file is too big which I don't understand.
Help with theses issues would be much appreciated. Thanks.
Title: Re: How to make chisel edges square
Post by: RickKrung on November 06, 2022, 11:12:09 PM
Ken is our resident chisel expert ;D, maybe he will chime in. 

I am not sure that you can or want to correct the out-of-squareness before you proceed with sharpening on the Tormek.  I think that is all part of doing it on the Tormek. 

Do you have the manual for the SE-77 and have you studied it?  There are two knobs that need to be maniputated in a coordinated manner to adjust squareness and it my not be intuitive.  Takes practice and careful attention.  One primary purpose of those knobs is to allow for creation of camber to the bevel.  I did this most recently with one plane blade.  That is the devil of it, though as if they are not adjusted properly the can cause out of squareness.  I found it took a LOT of black marker and checking frequently, making small adjustments, particularly when I was going for a square bevel on a different plane blade. 

Rick
Title: Re: How to make chisel edges square
Post by: Sir Amwell on November 06, 2022, 11:23:51 PM
Thanks Rick.
So are you saying that as long as the chisel is correctly aligned in the SE77 then the sharpening process will correct the non squareness?
Title: Re: How to make chisel edges square
Post by: RickKrung on November 07, 2022, 12:06:12 AM
Yes and No.  Yes, that once you get the blade correctly aligned it should proceed fine.  GETTING it aligned properly is the trick.  With the old jig (SE-76), which was not adjustable, the blade had to be shifted in the jig or more pressure applied to one side or the other.  With the new jig (SE-77), it can take quite a bit of fiddling to get the blade set so it is grinding square.  A very small, fairly accurate square is most handy, one that is small enough to place along the bevel while it is in the jig.  One that is adjustable is really handy.  There have been a couple threads on this forum about all this.  Take some time and do some searches, for more in depth discussion of the how-to but also to see what sorts of small squares folks have found useful.  Here is one about getting it square (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php/topic,4948.0.html).

When using the square, normally it is held along the side of the blade (chisel or plane), so you must make sure the sides are parallel, not angled, otherwise, you will misled in what is square on the bevel. 

BTW, you didn't answer the question about whether you have the manual and have studied it. 

Rick
Title: Re: How to make chisel edges square
Post by: Sir Amwell on November 07, 2022, 12:15:08 AM
Yes I have the manual and studied it. Can't find anything I find relevant to squaring the edge. Stuff about the 2 micro adjusts for cambered edges.....
Title: Re: How to make chisel edges square
Post by: RickKrung on November 07, 2022, 02:55:59 AM
Quote from: Sir Amwell on November 07, 2022, 12:15:08 AM
Yes I have the manual and studied it. Can't find anything I find relevant to squaring the edge. Stuff about the 2 micro adjusts for cambered edges.....

Those are exactly what you must adjust to get it set to square.  When used for cambering, the knobs are backed off and the jig can rotate left and right which is what produces the camber.  For grinding square, the knobs must be set tight so the jig does not move, but because there is no "exact" square setting, you must "discover" it for yourself.  There is a raised line on the two parts that indicate "about" center, but it is not exact and cannot be relied upon. 

There is information in the manual that touches on all this, it just doesn't go into a lot of detail.

Page 121 (in the PDF file manual I have).  It even refers the reader to the next one.
(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5135.0;attach=6895)

Page 125.  This refers to applying pressure to one side or the other.  I find this less than effective.
(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5135.0;attach=6901)

Page 126.  All three figures here speak to the issue.  The middle one referring to the indicator line is only somewhat close, as I said, you cannot rely on it, you'll have to make fine adjustments to get it truly square.
(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5135.0;attach=6903)

Rick
Title: Re: How to make chisel edges square
Post by: Ken S on November 07, 2022, 03:30:38 AM
Ken chiming in......

A black marker and a small square are both very useful (essential) in grinding square chisels and plane blades.

Check the chisel you are sharpening. Be sure to check it from both sides. Mark the bevel with your black marker.

EDIT: A NEW SQUARING PROCEDURE IS DEMONSTRATED IN THIS TORMEK ONLINE CLASS, STARTING AROUND 23:00

https://youtu.be/8uLMWXqobRM


Take one light pass across your chisel. Hold the square next to your chisel edge. If the edge is not square, the initial light pass should be square with the blade of your square. The goal is to have each pass gradually make the edge more square. The most common mistake is plowing ahead before you are grinding square.

Proceed slowly with your first chisels. You will soon pick up speed as you gain proficiency. Do not move on until you are happy with your first chisel. Midwidth chisels are the easiest to sharpen. Start with something in the 1/2" to 3/4" width.

Keep us posted.

Ken
Title: Re: How to make chisel edges square
Post by: Ken S on November 07, 2022, 03:39:23 AM
I find the coverage of the adjustment knobs in the handbook unfortunate. The emphasis should be on cambering planes, not on aligning chisels. The SE-77 is a major advance for cambering plane blades. Being able to control camber with bench planes is one of the things which distinguishes a cabinetmaker from a woodworker. The amount of camber sets the cut depth of a planes which varies according to the function of the plane.

Ken
Title: Re: How to make chisel edges square
Post by: RickKrung on November 07, 2022, 04:02:19 AM
While the design may be a major advancement for cambering, it does serve dual purposes and by virtue of its adjustability to accomplish cambering, I think it is incumbent on Tormek to adequately explain how to set it up so that squareness can be achieved. 

Rick
Title: Re: How to make chisel edges square
Post by: Ken S on November 07, 2022, 04:07:48 AM
I agree.
Title: Re: How to make chisel edges square
Post by: Sir Amwell on November 07, 2022, 08:14:16 AM
Thanks both. I posted initially because I found the manual lacking here. Yes it does state what the adjustment knobs do but does not instruct how this would work in practice.
My ( probably faulty) thought process is as follows.
Align chisel in jig.
Somehow imagine using the truing jig in reverse.
The chisel become the wheel, the wheel becomes the the truing tool.
Gradually, starting at the highest point of the chisel edge, lower the usb with each pass......
This is where it falls down because each adjustment of the usb alters the angle.
I will try Ken's advice and see how it goes.
Title: Re: How to make chisel edges square
Post by: tgbto on November 07, 2022, 01:32:35 PM
I am not an expert in chisels, but I thought I might comment on the "angle" part : the USB height will change the grinding angle, not the squareness of the edge wrt the sides of the chisel. I'd advise sharpening at the desired angle, not higher, so you don't end up with a dual angle edge. Then you grind it (on the SG, graded coarse) until your edge is back to square, knowing that it will in any case grind more on the side that needs to be shortened.

In other terms, don't fiddle with the USB height during the grinding process; your analogy with the truing does not really apply because the truing jig is self-supported by the fork that clamps on the USB rod. So adjusting the height adjusts the depth of cut. With the chisel jig, adjusting the height will change the grinding angle, as it will always be such that the point furthest away from the usb contacts the stone.

Just for what it's worth : it is recommended to always end by raising the USB, not lowering it to avoid hysteresis. To put it another way: always rotate the microadjust nut a bit past where you'd want it then rotate it back to where you actually want it... should you want to adjust the height.



Title: Re: How to make chisel edges square
Post by: WimSpi on November 07, 2022, 05:41:11 PM
Quote from: Ken S on November 07, 2022, 03:39:23 AM
I find the coverage of the adjustment knobs in the handbook unfortunate. The emphasis should be on cambering planes, not on aligning chisels. The SE-77 is a major advance for cambering plane blades. Being able to control camber with bench planes is one of the things which distinguishes a cabinetmaker from a woodworker. The amount of camber sets the cut depth of a planes which varies according to the function of the plane.

Ken

Here, as a woodworker, I agree 100%.
Wim
Title: Re: How to make chisel edges square
Post by: Ken S on January 10, 2023, 08:03:07 AM
See the edit to my post of November 06, 2022 of this topic.

Ken
Title: Re: How to make chisel edges square
Post by: tgbto on January 10, 2023, 09:04:49 AM
Hey Ken, thank you for pointing this out. This sounds like a quick, foolproof method.

Are we sure though, that the support is exactly perpendicular to the side of the stone ? Because we true parallel to the support
Title: Re: How to make chisel edges square
Post by: Ken S on January 10, 2023, 05:38:33 PM
Please note that the squaring procedure is done using the inside face of the grinding wheel. As the inside face is never used for grinding, it is probably square with the outer rim.

It would seem prudent to check the squareness of the grinding wheel before initially using it.

This procedure is an example of how Tormek technique has evolved over the years. Tormek has never intentionally tried to keep these developments secret.
However, before the online classes, Tormek had no efficient way to share them with "the masses" (us). Over the years, through hanging around Stig at shows and many emails with support, I have been able to learn about some of these developments. I was always frustrated because this word of mouth method seemed inefficient. I have been delighted with the online classes. I have watched all of them at least twice, several of them multiple times. I learn more each time I watch them.

The SE-77 opens up many new possibilities, especially with controlled cambering of plane irons. These new capabilities also bring a longer learning curve. In my opinion, it is a good trade.

Ken
Title: Re: How to make chisel edges square
Post by: Sir Amwell on January 10, 2023, 06:18:25 PM
Thanks all for your help. I managed to get good square edges by being patient. Repeatedly using the marker method to check progress. That last batch of chisels turned out well.
Thanks for the link Ken. Hadn't seen this particular part of the Tormek video and it makes sense. A good tip to remember.
As for the post before about how we can be sure the stone is square when we true using the support bar?
Well I think the reply from Ken answers that. In more detail:
True the stone.
Check it's square to the back of the stone.
If it's not then Stigs method won't work.
Title: Re: How to make chisel edges square
Post by: tormekal on April 14, 2023, 02:38:34 AM
Can this procedure be used with diamond stones? 
Title: Re: How to make chisel edges square
Post by: Ken S on April 14, 2023, 05:01:11 AM
Good question. Stig's tip of placing the chisel against the side of the wheel should work very well with diamond wheels.

Two things to be aware of:
Never use the TT-50 truing tool or the stone grader with diamond wheels. Never, or you will ruin the wheels.
Using the side of the chisel to check for square presumes that the chisel itself is square.

Stig's tip is fast and accurate. I continue to keep my markers and square handy. Incidentally, I emailed support about the possibility of adding the small, very handy square included with the 50th Anniversary model in the product lineup. Tormek has not made a decision about stocking it as an accessory, or what the price might be.

Ken
Title: Re: How to make chisel edges square
Post by: tormekal on April 15, 2023, 02:10:23 PM
defintely won't use truing tool on dimaond stones.  Reason i asked is that on my T4 one side of the diamond stone is plastic that goes towards the motor so wasn't sure if thats a good reference point
That little square is nice, I ended up getting one from amazon.  tiny japanese machinist square, seems to work great. 
Title: Re: How to make chisel edges square
Post by: Ken S on April 16, 2023, 07:35:46 PM
 Tormekal,

Stig's tip works with the diamond wheels, if a minor variation is introduced. The plastic inside face is square, but slightly indented. Placing a gift card or something similar will compensate for this indentation. (It's OK if it makes the indentation a bit proud. The plastic spacer card becomes the reference surface.

Ken
Title: Re: How to make chisel edges square
Post by: tgbto on June 12, 2023, 03:14:21 PM
Quote from: tgbto on January 10, 2023, 09:04:49 AMAre we sure though, that the support is exactly perpendicular to the side of the stone ? Because we true parallel to the support

I tried to take measurement this weekend. On an admittedly reduced sample consisting in the two T-8s I own. I tried to measure with both a digital protractor and a machined square.

Here's my take on this : though USB and inner stone wall don't seem to be *perfectly* perpendicular, they are perpendicular within the precision of the digital protractor, and meet at an angle that is ever so slightly obtuse on both machines. About barely enough to let light shine through the tiny gap between the square and the USB on the side opposite to the housing. So as far as I am concerned, I'll consider those two are perpendicular.
Title: Re: How to make chisel edges square
Post by: eld0n on September 13, 2023, 06:11:21 PM
Quote from: tgbto on June 12, 2023, 03:14:21 PM
Quote from: tgbto on January 10, 2023, 09:04:49 AMAre we sure though, that the support is exactly perpendicular to the side of the stone ? Because we true parallel to the support

I tried to take measurement this weekend. On an admittedly reduced sample consisting in the two T-8s I own. I tried to measure with both a digital protractor and a machined square.

Here's my take on this : though USB and inner stone wall don't seem to be *perfectly* perpendicular, they are perpendicular within the precision of the digital protractor, and meet at an angle that is ever so slightly obtuse on both machines. About barely enough to let light shine through the tiny gap between the square and the USB on the side opposite to the housing. So as far as I am concerned, I'll consider those two are perpendicular.

EDIT: I just realised that the out-of-squareness of my plane blades does not have anything to do with my grinding wheel not being perpendicular to the USB, since the grinding surface should at any rate be parallel to the USB and thus, the SE-77. However, I refrain from deleting my post in case someone has another troubleshooting suggestion.

Dear all,

I am new here and consider myself a beginner when it comes to sharpening with the Tormek. I own a T4 that I bought used. Upon purchase, I noticed that the grinding surface was not square to the sides of the stone. I figured that was an error on the part of the previous user and proceeded to true the stone as per the many instruction videos on YouTube.

Now, the issue is that none of my blades come out square. I fact, they are so much out of square that the lateral adjustment on my planes is insufficient to get a straight cut. Of course, user error on my part is highly likely, and I hope we can work out what I am doing wrong.

First, I noticed the two lines on the SE-77 were not aligned, though the discrepancy was minimal. Changing that didn't help.

Then, I re-trued the grinding stone, seeing as I had sharpened some knives and other non-square edges in the meantime. When finished, I noticed that the again, the grinding surface was out of square. I do not remember whether it was out of square in the same sense as when I bought the T4.

Then I tried pushing down on the threaded section of the USB when locking it in place, as I have seen in instruction videos. That did not seem to improve things.

After reading this thread, I began to wonder whether the USB was not perpendicular to the stone, and voilĂ : looks like that is the case. I notice that pursuant to tgbto's description, a bit of discrepancy is probably normal. However, in my case, the gap is quite significant. Granted, I am using an old square, which however appears to be somewhat true. Also, the 'slant' of the stone corresponds to the non-squareness of the grinding surface (hope that makes sense).

Could the positioning of the USB relative to the stone be the cause of my problem? As far as I can tell, the USB is not bent and perfectly straight. I am reluctant to remove the stone because the last time, changing the position of the wheel resulted in considerable truing and I don't want to waste more SG than necessary.

I am confident that I clamp my edge properly in the SE-77, ie there is no light shining through between the back of the blade and the jig and I make sure the blade is firmly pushed against the 90 degree stop of the jig.

Thanks a lot in advance for any thoughts and suggestions you might have  :)
Title: Re: How to make chisel edges square
Post by: John Hancock Sr on September 14, 2023, 02:42:23 AM
A couple of thoughts. If the machine was abused (dropped et al) before getting to you then square is not guaranteed.

Tormek recommend that when removing and  placing the wheel always do that with the label up so that you always put the stone on in the same orientation which can compensate for out of square.

The key parameters for square is the USB parallel to the wheel. So long as the outer surface and the USB are parallel your jig should give you a square grind. To do this Place the wheel on the machine label oriented up then true the stone.

For this next step use a relatively narrow blade, but not too narrow, since it will be a quicker process to test your setup. Say a 1/2" or 12mm would be ideal. Place the blade into the SE-77 hard against the stop on the right (viewed from the rear of the jig ie. the chisel handle side), slide the second securing screw upto the chisel and secure the screws so that the top of the jig is parallel to the bottom. Check from both sides of the jig that the tool is tight against the square edge inside the jig. I sometimes find that after I place the tool and tighten it it slips marginally and I have to untighten slightly, readjust then retighten. At this point you should be able to use a small square to check that the the of the chisel (all this assumes that the chisel has parallel edges of curse) is at right angles to the face of the jig. If not then that may be your issue.

Now start sharpening. After the edge starts to form use your square to check for square. if you find that it is sharpening out of square then you can use the "Two smaller adjustment screws" to adjust the angle either way. In theory if you have done everything above then you should be into the semis without dropping a set. But if there is any skew this this will adjust for it.

The issue may be that either the shaft is slightly bent, the case is distorted or the stone is out of square. In any case trueing the stone will compensate for all of this.

Another check you can do is after trueing the stone lower the USB until it almost touches the stone, draw a fine line across the stone parallel to the USB then when you put the jig onto the USB with the chisel in it check that the edge of the chisel is parallel to the line you drew, assuming that the chisel edge is square to start with.

When I first used the Tormek I fund that I had issues getting edges square and I think it is because I was not meticulous enough with the setup I outlined above. Even now I get the odd chisel or plane blade that is ever so slightly out of square. But In my experience if you are careful with your setup then you should get square grinds even on problematic machines.
Title: Re: How to make chisel edges square
Post by: eld0n on September 20, 2023, 08:49:18 PM
Thanks a lot for the helpful reply, John - and sorry for taking so long to react. Life has a tendency to get in the way of the important things, for instance sharpening on a Tormek or checking this forum ;)

I will try the procedure you recommend and hope that with a bit of practice, my results will improve and I will get square edges.

Best regards and thanks again!