Hey!
I'm a noob and a hobby sharpener who jsut got a T4.
I don't have many knives, but it's still a pain in the @... to
- take knife 1, use the grade stone to go to low grit, sharpen, use stone to change to high grit
(change knife)
- take knife 2, use the grade stone to go to low grit, sharpen, use stone to change to high grit
etc
curious to know if you (who sharpen many knives per day) do the above for each knife or do something like:
use the grade stone to go to low grit, sharpen knives 1,2,3,4,5 etc
use stone to change to high grit, sharpen knives 1,2,3,4,5 etc
Ryan,
If you think using the stone grader is a pain, try the other method:
Setup each of your knives in the jig. Grind them coarse.
Remove each knife from the jig.
Carefully place each knife back in the jig in the exact same place. Grind fine.
Try it. I think this method is much more of a pain than quickly regrading the grinding wheel.
Also, for many knives which are dull, but not damaged, you can omit the coarse grinding. This eliminates both switching back and forth with the stone grader and having to reset the jig (the best of both worlds).
With practice, you will soon become proficient with the stone grader.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on January 27, 2022, 02:25:42 AM
Try it. I think this method is much more of a pain than quickly regrading the grinding wheel.
Nope, I agree that it would be a bigger pain, I was wondering if the commercial guys have multiple machines to help...
I actually get a kick feeling the stone go from rough to smooth :), I had no idea of this being possible in the knife sharpening world before coming to Tormek.
I wonder if perhaps I am spending too much time to go from smooth to rough and vice versa :-\ ? Other than the feel method is there some way to test when the stone is "done" converting from one to the other?
> Also, for many knives which are dull, but not damaged, you can omit the coarse grinding. This eliminates both switching back and forth with the stone grader and having to reset the jig (the best of both worlds).
I will have to sharpen at the existing angle then, yes?
Thanks!
Other than testing, I rarely grade the stone "coarse" for knife sharpening... I don't think it's needed unless you're fixing some damage or a serious reprofile.
Usually, I don't grade the stone at all. This puts it in between coarse and fine... around 600g. If i want it finer, then I'd use the fine side of the grader. (Then give it a quick hit with the coarse side, to bring it back to the in between state, or just continue sharpening).
I spent ages getting all my knives into a good condition but as they weren't damaged or miss treated, they only needed the fine grit. Even an old bowie knife which id never sharpened in 50 years.
i find i only need to use the honing wheel many times before they have to go back onto the sg200 wheel set at fine. As others have said, i only use the coarse for serious reshaping and removing chips (mainly on my axe and chisels) though i do use the soft side of the grader to give the stone a quick dress every now and then. But i do use the marker method so i know im only working on the existing angle of the kitchen and outdoor knives.
I no longer use the tormek stone grader. I use the diamond plates in the SE-77.
I have the fine plate more or less sitting in the SE-77, and when I need to greade the stone fin I slip the SE-77 onto a horizontally mounted USB (that I don't use much, as I always use the long USB). Then I finish the knife on the stone graded fine, then hone.
Then only do I change the knife and start sharpening it on the stone without grading it coarse. The stone will quickly get back to its ca. 600 grit, in-between state.
Thanks guys!
I think I had a misconception ??? that using the Tormek was always a 1-2 step process (first coarse then fine), from your replies it sounds like coarse is needed only for damaged /chipped knives
Quote from: tgbto on January 27, 2022, 12:26:44 PM
I no longer use the tormek stone grader. I use the diamond plates in the SE-77.
Interesting! Don't the diamond plates "cut" off a thin layer of stone (lessen lifespan) ?
They do, yes : they abrade the surface and break down the surface particles in the process. Pretty much the same way the stone grader does.
I have not noticed faster wear from the stones. I did find though, that I had to true the wheel less often.
Just for clarity, I did not invent this process at all, I saw it in one of Wootz's videos on stone grading (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=141hD1d1zj0).
One of the things new users need to overcome is the "my precious Tormek grinding wheel syndrome". All grinding wheels are long term consumibles, just like brake linings on a car.
Use your grinding wheel. Keep it trued and dressed. At some point in the future, it will wear out, as will your car and your body. All will work better if you maintain them.
Ken
Quote from: tgbto on January 27, 2022, 01:35:22 PM
They do, yes : they abrade the surface and break down the surface particles in the process. Pretty much the same way the stone grader does.
I have not noticed faster wear from the stones. I did find though, that I had to true the wheel less often.
Just for clarity, I did not invent this process at all, I saw it in one of Wootz's videos on stone grading (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=141hD1d1zj0).
Yup, came across that video on a youtube search. It seemed like good different solution to the Tormek tool.
I don't own the Tormke truing tool (yet ::) ) but from videos it looks like it leaves small lines which the plates solution dont.
Makes more sense if you have a main use for that that jig other than truing, I suppose.
Quote from: Ken S on January 27, 2022, 02:26:31 PM
Use your grinding wheel. Keep it trued and dressed. At some point in the future, it will wear out, as will your car and your body.
No! Not my body! :P
But I get what you mean ;)
I think you should get a truing tool so you know the stone is true. You need to take it over very slowly which minimises the fine lines but from my understanding it makes it a bit more coarse. And then get the surface nice and fine with the grader and you wont notice the lines.
I'm making (editing) my unboxing video on my Tormek, when I first installed the stone I did a check if there was a wobble (some people complained online) but thankfully, no wobble and it seems quite level out of the box.
Not sure when I will need to get it level as I'm just a hobby sharpener with 5 Global knives, 5ish hobby knives, and few from family...
I am a slow truer. While I prefer to true often and lightly, when I do true, I make very light cuts, generally only a fraction of a microadjust number. I generally take at least 90 seconds to make a pass. I won't win any speed contests; however, I have never chippeda stone and I don't have grooves.
Ken
I tried the diamond plate routine... while it keeps the wheel flat (true) edge to edge, I found that the wheel can go out of round after a while... the truing tool prevents this.
Maybe just me. :o
Quote from: Ken S on January 27, 2022, 05:51:42 PM
I am a slow truer. While I prefer to true often and lightly, when I do true, I make very light cuts, generally only a fraction of a microadjust number. I generally take at least 90 seconds to make a pass. I won't win any speed contests; however, I have never chippeda stone and I don't have grooves.
Ken
I think I shall try this method when I eventually need to true the stone - I'm not sharpening to win any races either. ::)
Quote from: cbwx34 on January 27, 2022, 06:34:45 PM
I tried the diamond plate routine... while it keeps the wheel flat (true) edge to edge, I found that the wheel can go out of round after a while... the truing tool prevents this.
Maybe just me. :o
Interesting, thanks!
The SG stone always wears in the middle. I see it wear after doing 1 or 2 blades. I detect it by putting the aluminum backside of a sharpening stone (or any flat surface) on the wheel and shine a flashlight behind. I fix it with a 400grit diamond stone. I bought the truing tool before I thought of using a diamond stone. As long as I keep it maintained, I will never need the truing tool.
Also, I don't like the truing tool. Too loose and it doesn't produce a smooth surface (probably because the diamond bit isn't cut well). Need to hit it with the diamond stone after anyways. I put zip ties on it to tight it up, but still not something I want to use again.
I notice wobble. Up and down wobble. It is very weird... seems like sometimes I can unscrew the lock, rotate the wheel some and it goes away or isn't as bad. I hate changing stones. Considering getting a 2nd T4 for the SJ wheel.
I love the Tormek! My knives get really sharp really quick! Maintaining the mirror edge is easy. If I have to go back to using EdgePro or Haptsone, I'll forget about knives and shift focus to my guns.
I'd concur with cb : the wheel may get out of round with the diamond plate, though with the small quantity of knives I sharpen it takes a rather long time. Once it starts to be so, there is no coming back and it will only get worse. The truing tool with take care of this.
Quote from: nevertakeadayoff on January 30, 2022, 11:36:55 PM
I love the Tormek! My knives get really sharp really quick! Maintaining the mirror edge is easy. If I have to go back to using EdgePro or Haptsone, I'll forget about knives and shift focus to my guns.
I agree.
I have one of the Edgepro chinese knockoffs, got the whole kit for around 55€ - I don't use it anymore and will probably be offering it as a youtube giveaway.
Sweden - not so easy to own guns but I do have fond memories of my visits to the US and gun ranges ;)
Quote from: tgbto on January 31, 2022, 08:02:56 AM
I'd concur with cb : the wheel may get out of round with the diamond plate, though with the small quantity of knives I sharpen it takes a rather long time.
Yup, I too have few knives so I've offered sharpening for sis, mom and friends too :)
Call me weird, but I find it relaxing to grind the knives... ::) :o
Regarding the question posed in the original post. I generally change wheels when I sharpen. SG-250, Sun Tiger 800, and SJ-250 (skipping the SG-250 when the main bevel is already set. However, I purchased multiple SVM-45 knife jigs so that I can set up four knives in the jigs and progress them all through the stones and honing without the annoyance of unclamping and resetting the knives between each stone. As Ken indicated, unclamping and re-clamping in the exact same location is annoying, if not impossible.
I'm a newbie also. I put painters tape on the blade and mark with a magic marker. It's easier to reclamp. I some times mark the blade and always clean the blades with spray alcohol.
Quote from: JustADudeInSweden on January 27, 2022, 01:05:00 AM
Hey!
curious to know if you (who sharpen many knives per day) do the above for each knife or do something like:
I thought in the same way like you.
I solved it by buying a diamond wheel 360 for the first grinding, so the standart stone is always prepared to 1000.
Quote from: Pietje on March 16, 2022, 02:40:05 AM
Quote from: JustADudeInSweden on January 27, 2022, 01:05:00 AM
Hey!
curious to know if you (who sharpen many knives per day) do the above for each knife or do something like:
I thought in the same way like you.
I solved it by buying a diamond wheel 360 for the first grinding, so the standart stone is always prepared to 1000.
Interesting solution :) How long does the diamond wheel last? (I have no experience with it)
Hey!
I didn´t got it dull. But only since 6 month. Ask the forum for the standing.
But the anticorrosive liquid is expensive over the time. Better look vor CBM Discs.
And no japanese Waterstone! Look for a CBN too.
Look at https://schleifjunkies.de/shop/
He sends internalional wide.
Good luck
Pietje
Whenever anyone states that the anti corrosion compound is expensive, I think it is important to both quantify the amount of expense and look at it in the context of the total sharpening expense.
Each diamond wheel comes with one 150ml bottle of ACC. The water trough of the T8 requires 125ml of water and 5ml of ACC. This solution can be reused. A small amount may also be lost in spillage. I calculated a batch expense of approximately $.60 US per batch. This expense only occurs after the first thirty batches from the included 150ml bottle. It protects a $300 investment is each diamond wheel, as well as offering some protection to steel tools. Let's simplify things such as spillage and future price increases by assuming a $.75 cost per batch. With the initial cost of the Tormek and diamond wheels, I fail to see where the cost of ACC is significant. It does make good marketing propaganda for vendors of wheels used dry or with plain water.
The argument of having to change the water when beginning with an 80 grit plain water wheel doesn't hold water with me. ACC will not harm a plain water wheel. For critical work, it would seem good practice to change the water anyway just to keep it clean.
I have nothing against CBN wheels. I just prefer a more accurate comparison with diamond wheels.
Ken
Quote from: Pietje on March 19, 2022, 10:40:06 AM
And no japanese Waterstone!
What do you mean? I got the Jpn waterstone and it's good! I just had to change my way of sharpening (instaed of top, I sharpen from down now, less chance of the stone "gripping" the knife and getting a deep scratch.)
Hello!
Your method beware you from a lot of problems. Thats good.
What do I mean:
A lot of users in this forum have reported, that the stone is tumbling right-left.
I have a problem with truing the stone.
Another of my problems is, that the stone goes up and down. My other discs do not have this problems.
Both failures seems to me are grounded in an incorrect centerhole, because the other discs are workung well.
Tormek told my to put the stone always with writing up at 12 o´clock.
For this high price Tormek has to fit a bushing in the stone to center the stone correct.
But Tormek seems also having a problem with the quality control.
On YT is a video that the diameter of the shaft is not 12mm +0,000. It is 12,001 so the CBN discs Schleifjunkies is selling doesn´t fit to custumer machines.
In my sight this is a scandal.
For machinebuilder there is a ISO standart, called ISO Einheitswelle / Einheitsbohrung. (Sorry, didn´t find a translation.)
It helps engeneers to secure a proper fit of pin and hole. There are three kinds of fitting. Strong, soft and gentle.
With this bushing of the waterstone they bring a problem from the custumer back to their plant.
The shaft doesn´t have the centering holes at the ends so a custumer cann´t correct the shafts diameter.
So long
Pietje
Quote from: Pietje on March 20, 2022, 11:14:31 AM
On YT is a video that the diameter of the shaft is not 12mm +0,000. It is 12,001 so the CBN discs Schleifjunkies is selling doesn´t fit to custumer machines.
Pietje
Would you post a link to this video please? I am curious now and I am interested in seeing this video in it's entirety to see exactly what is being presented there. Thank you.
Quote from: highpower on March 20, 2022, 05:10:31 PM
Quote from: Pietje on March 20, 2022, 11:14:31 AM
On YT is a video that the diameter of the shaft is not 12mm +0,000. It is 12,001 so the CBN discs Schleifjunkies is selling doesn´t fit to custumer machines.
Pietje
Would you post a link to this video please? I am curious now and I am interested in seeing this video in it's entirety to see exactly what is being presented there. Thank you.
I'm gonna guess this one...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5roTPWP-9w
Thank you cb. For the life of me I could not understand how a shaft that is one micron (0.001mm) over it's nominal size could cause such a problem. Now that I have read the actual numbers for myself (0.01mm) it makes more sense. The problem with standards is, there are too many of them. But it looked like Hanns has already had his manufacturer adjust their tolerance specs to his satisfaction so it wouldn't be an issue anymore for the most part.
I have a new SJ stone coming myself in a couple of days. My only concern would be any damage to the stone that might occur in transit. Anything beyond that is all on me and I am just fine with that.
QuoteOn YT is a video that the diameter of the shaft is not 12mm +0,000. It is 12,001 12,01 so the CBN discs Schleifjunkies is selling doesn´t fit to custumer machines.
In my sight this is a scandal.
For machinebuilder there is a ISO standart, called ISO Einheitswelle / Einheitsbohrung. (Sorry, didn´t find a translation.)
Hello,
Has anyone had a similar problem with Tormek's diamond wheels? Are the manufacturing tolerances of the shaft known?
I don't think it's fair to complain about the original shaft when a non-original wheel is fitted to it.
I found that the hole in the original diamond Tormek wheels should be 12.00mm
+0.04/+0.06mm diameter (not verified), if these tolerances are correct, the problem is clearly with the non-original CBN wheels dimensions/tolerances, not on the Tormek side...
The +0.04 / +0.06 mm tolerance zone does not correspond to any standard tolerance class (ISO 286-2), which may be the answer to why a standardized fit is not used.
jvh
I worked for the Bell System, the major telephone company in the US. Starting in 1984, we were required to purchase a certain amount of our switching equipment from other companies. The requirement was that the other companies make their equipment to confirm to our office equipment. This was a wise ruling. In the case of the Tormek main shaft and grinding wheels of whatever manufacturer, it also seems reasonable to have all grinding wheels conform to Tormek specifications. If a shaft is modified to fit a grinding wheel with an undersize bore, wheels with a standard size bore will be a loose fit.
Ken
Hi highpower!
It is the link user cbwx34 has posted.
For the offered solution in this video I have a different point of view.
You may loose your 8-year garantee grinding the shaft.
If you have only one Tormek T8 my way is to hone up the hole of the disc.
with a reamer and special honing oil or with a adjustable handreamer you will get an proper hole with a diameter you need.
Pietje
Hi Ken!
The industrial rule of construction is:
A hole can only be greater and a shaft can only be smaller. Thats ISO.
Pietje
Hi, Pietje.
The problem with grinding the shaft or reaming the bore of the grinding wheel is that neither corrects the real problem. The grinding wheel has been manufactured with an undersized bore. The real solution is to return the wheel to the vendor for replacement or refund. This assumes that the wheel was purchased new with the presumption that it would properly fit on a Tormek.
We have probably all modified parts to work together for special projects. A brand new, expensive product when used for its intended purpose should function properly without need of user modification. I would expect this of Tormek or any third party.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on March 21, 2022, 09:06:10 AM
Hi, Pietje.
The problem with grinding the shaft or reaming the bore of the grinding wheel is that neither corrects the real problem. The grinding wheel has been manufactured with an undersized bore. The real solution is to return the wheel to the vendor for replacement or refund. This assumes that the wheel was purchased new with the presumption that it would properly fit on a Tormek.
We have probably all modified parts to work together for special projects. A brand new, expensive product when used for its intended purpose should function properly without need of user modification. I would expect this of Tormek or any third party.
Ken
+1.
+2
Quote from: Ken S on January 27, 2022, 02:26:31 PM
Use your grinding wheel. Keep it trued and dressed. At some point in the future, it will wear out, as will your car and your body.
It's only been about a week since my Tormek T-8 arrived. I'm not exactly sure what the best method is for maintaining the grinding wheel so that I can get maximum life out of it. Any advice you can give will be greatly appreciated.
Quote from: Ken98660 on March 30, 2022, 02:18:04 AM
Quote from: Ken S on January 27, 2022, 02:26:31 PM
Use your grinding wheel. Keep it trued and dressed. At some point in the future, it will wear out, as will your car and your body.
It's only been about a week since my Tormek T-8 arrived. I'm not exactly sure what the best method is for maintaining the grinding wheel so that I can get maximum life out of it. Any advice you can give will be greatly appreciated.
First off I would recommend that you concentrate on learning the fundamentals of sharpening and not worry too much that you are going to use up the stone too fast. Become familiar with how the wheel grinds metal away when it is graded coarse, how it operates in the mid range and how grading it fine impacts the removal of steel. You will see that Tormek uses the grading stone quite often during their demos. Personally I will only grade the wheel coarse if the blade is damaged or if I want to change the sharpening angle. For most of my work I use the stone in the middle position where it naturally settles with use. I will then grade it fine and finish sharpening. I should note that I have never been asked by a customer to change the angle of sharpening of a knife. I have only done this on some of my very old European knives that were originally sharpened at 20° per side. I reduced the angle on these to 15° per side.
Using the TT-50 truing tool is also an important step in your sharpening. With use the wheel will go out of round. This happens slowly over time but if the wheel is not periodically trued it can become quite bad. I believe in truing fairly often (based on usage). When you do this you will find that it will only take a few light passes to restore the wheel's concentricity. If you true the wheel infrequently you will find that it takes many more passes to restore the wheel's concentricity. In the life of the wheel I don't think you save anything by delaying truing. Sharpening is also better with a round wheel. Think of the wheel as a consumable that needs care to perform at its best. I think every new owner goes through this period of trying to minimize stone wear. I like those before have learned that it takes a lot of sharpening and truing to wear out a stone.
Thanks for sharing the great information.