Tormek Community Forum

Hello sharpening friends!
I have read and studied several of your tips on how to solve different problems. Very interesting and fun to see how the rest of you found clever solutions. Thank you.
Now I thought I would contribute with a small tool that I printed with the help of a 3D printer and that I have greatly benefited from when setting up my Tormek T8
It can be used to measure the diameter of the grinding wheel, height of USB from both the machine and the grinding wheel. I also use it to measure or set the length of the grinding jig.
What I'm most fond of is setting the angle using it, the ruler is 1mm thick and the distance underneath is 6mm so it's consistent with the jig's center line broadly. It is much easier to set the right degrees because you don't use the jig with a knife on it.
I do not attach a drawing or any measure because the only measure that is important is 6mm according to figure1. And that surface A and B are parallel with each other.
I think the pictures describe enough if someone is thinking of developing their own. I hope it can be a joy for any of you!
Regards

Looks clever!  Thanks for sharing.

Looks cool! Which printer are you using and are you uploading your files to a place like thingyverse?

Nice job !

No I not upload any file for this tool. i do belive that the picture explain how to make one if you are interested. And the most importent value is 6mm that I also markt on the picture. You can choose the dimensions as you like on the rest of the tool to fit any ruler, etc.

Quote from: JustADudeInSweden on January 27, 2022, 03:25:34 PM
Looks cool! Which printer are you using and are you uploading your files to a place like thingyverse?

Here is the file for 3d -print.

Very interesting and very ingenious. Great job !
Cheers.

I think I will take this to our library.s 3D printer and give it a go.

Thanks

Quote from: john.jcb on February 19, 2022, 09:21:50 PM
I think I will take this to our library.s 3D printer and give it a go.

Thanks

Glad you appreciate it and want to try making your own. I use it all the time.

You can also use it the together with TormekCalc2 and an angle cube. Just turn it upside down but be sure that the ruler is long enough to rest on the grinding wheel. Pic16

I have also worked with a way to set the grinding angle with an angle cube and this tool, and have created my own excel file for it. If there is anyone who is interested, just let me know and I can upload it on the forum.

It is not easy to use an angle cube because the value only changes by 0.6 degrees on the angle cube for each full degree you change the grinding angle. Therefore, you need a very precise angle cube. But it can be fun to try.

On request, I enclose here an angle program in excel that can be used together with this tool to set the grinding angle of your Tormek. You can also try using an angle cube with it if you want.
Feel free to leave a comment about what you think or if you see something that is wrong.
Calculations and inputs in the program are most the same as in other programs but I have added calculations for an angle cube.
My ambition has been to make a slightly easier program to use than the fantastic Tormekcalc2 that can do so much more.

Quote from: Perra on March 09, 2022, 10:29:13 PM
On request, I enclose here an angle program in excel that can be used together with this tool to set the grinding angle of your Tormek. You can also try using an angle cube with it if you want.
Feel free to leave a comment about what you think or if you see something that is wrong.
Calculations and inputs in the program are most the same as in other programs but I have added calculations for an angle cube.
My ambition has been to make a slightly easier program to use than the fantastic Tormekcalc2 that can do so much more.

Very nice.

I like the fact you can use an angle cube directly on the SVM-45.  I did one quick test (set the angle by measuring to the wheel, then checked with the angle cube)... was within .1 deg.   8)

Nice job!

Quote from: Perra on February 22, 2022, 06:51:38 PM

Quote from: john.jcb on February 19, 2022, 09:21:50 PM
I think I will take this to our library.s 3D printer and give it a go.

Thanks

Glad you appreciate it and want to try making your own. I use it all the time.

You can also use it the together with TormekCalc2 and an angle cube. Just turn it upside down but be sure that the ruler is long enough to rest on the grinding wheel. Pic16

I have also worked with a way to set the grinding angle with an angle cube and this tool, and have created my own excel file for it. If there is anyone who is interested, just let me know and I can upload it on the forum.

It is not easy to use an angle cube because the value only changes by 0.6 degrees on the angle cube for each full degree you change the grinding angle. Therefore, you need a very precise angle cube. But it can be fun to try.

Hello Perra i´m interested in this one! How is this system working for you?

Hello Tukkis I use this little tool all the time and together with the excel file it becomes very easy to set the correct degrees on the machine. If you have the opportunity, I suggest you print the T-cube on a 3D printer and try it. You can find the 3D file above. I have an updated version of the excel file if you want! Just let me know! There are many different ways to set the angle and this is the way I prefer to use. What I have tried and which is not so common is to set the angle with a digital angle cube. But you can use the tool in several different ways, even together with other good calculators like Open AngleTool or Knife Sharpening Angle Calculator.

Perra,

Well done!
Your design strikes me as a much improved version of the "substitute target" angle measuring tool I posted several years ago. (see the link): 

https://forum.tormek.com/index.php/topic,2639.0.html

I particularly like your photo showing its use with the Anglemaster. The Anglemaster works very well with broad, flat surfaces like chisels and planes; however, it can be more challenging with small areas like knife bevels.

I will have my grandson fire up our 3D printer!

Thanks for posting.

Ken

Attached is a small update to Angle Calculator Lite.

I myself sometimes have a need to print out simple tables for angles and distances etc. to be able to work a little faster and without a computer.
So I have created my own excel sheet for this purpose. Inspired by Ton Nillesen.
For those who like paper tables to have by the side when you grind like me I have added a function to my Angle calculator that gives the possibility to customize and print a table for distance between Top of Usb and grinding wheel adapted to different angles and jig lengths.
You can found it under the worksheet USB-->Wheel in "Angle Calculator Lite V1,3"
Hope someone like it.
Angle Calculator Lite V1,3 is attached below

Quote from: Perra on October 20, 2022, 07:42:43 PM
...
For those who like paper tables to have by the side when you grind ...
...

With the new Self-centering Knife Jig KJ-45, the projection distance can no longer be adjusted, due to the removal of the adjustable stop. My tables, however, were based on coarse adjustment with the usb and fine adjustment with the adjustable stop. These are therefore no longer usable with the KJ-45.

So thank you very much Perra for this spreadsheet. If I buy the KJ-45, I will gratefully use your workpiece. Also compliments for the beautiful design.

I imported the spreadsheet with the open source office package LibreOffice. It worked without problems and I saved it as .ODS file.

Thank you very much Dutchman for your review. It was much appreciated

Perra,

I like your table. You have certainly based it on an excellent source. Ton Nillesen's (Dutchman) tables have served as the inspiration for all of the forum based setting programs and mechanical setting devices. My own kenjig relies heavily on Ton's grinding angle tables for its accuracy and repeatability.

Based on my rather simple needs, I would suggest using your table as an intermediate step, a reference. (Others may have more demanding requirements.)

When I designed the kenjig, I made two jigs, one for 15° per side and one for 20°. Sharpening kitchen knives, I have only used the 15° jig. Except for a master reference table, I would suggest a stripped down final table with perhaps four angles (10°, 12°, 15° and 20° for example). I would be tempted to make up individual one angle cards.

With the Projection, using the SVM jig, I have standardized mostly on 139mm with paring knives at 125mm. I would start projection at 125mm and consider a high limit of 145mm. I would keep your present high Projections on the reference table for use when sharpening cleavers.

With either the SVM or new KJ jigs, there is a range of Projection in the jig clamps. While the KJ is not adjustable, the knife can be inserted up to 15mm. Subtracting the minimum 2 mm holding distance, that still allows 13mm of adjustment in the clamp. For a "margin of safety". let's figure 10mm. If our stripped down chart lists Projection in 4mm increments, we are still covered. I do not believe the reduced adjustability of the KJ jigs will prove to be as major a constraint as some believe.

Kudos for your table. It is a useful idea.

Ken

Hi Perra. I'm going to get a 3D print of your jig. Thanks for sharing!
Was wondering about the hole for the ' locking nut'. Will the 3D print print the hole? If it does will it be threaded? If so what is the thread for it? Obviously if not then it should be easy to drill and thread one's own?

Hello Sir Amwell
Yes, The hole is printed in the 3d model, dia 6.8 mm, and I have then threaded by hand with M8 *1.25 mm tap. But you can choose the thread that suits you if you can change the file a little or choose a larger thread diameter and drill the hole a little bigger.

The "Angle Calculator Lite V1.4" is now updated with two more measurement jigs and some small adjustments.
The file is attached down below.

Perra,
thanks for this great tool.

I am going to have a T-Cube made for me, I think this fits my needs perfectly.

There is one question remaining.
The top of the steel ruler to my understanding takes place of the knife´s center line to a good approximation. Thus the offset of 6mm, provided you use one of the stock knife jigs.

Now to my further understanding, this does not work for jigs whose "center line" (for lacking a better word) is offset by a varying amount, like

• SE-77 (the straight edge jig)
• cbwx34-fix
• Tool Rest SVD-110
• Scissors jig SVX-150
• Homemade Knife Rest HK-50

Dutchman adresses this in his booklet "more math..." in chapter "Changing the reference point for the stone distance". He calls the parameter JC=jig centerline to center of USB offset

It is quite possible that you have taken this into account in your jig diameter parameter, in which case only this one would need to be changed for such a jig. In fact it would seem quite logical, since in your drawing you use the same letters for designating these points.

So calling the parameter jig diameter is a logical step, since all official knife jigs have 12mm and the numbers come out exactly the same for the knife jigs, but if the center line were somewhere else, using this nomenclature were ambiguous.

In fact, even the term jig center line would likely be inadequate for cutting objects that have a single bevel. I cannot imagine myself a term that universally describes the same thing for knives and chisels, but clearly, for a chisel, it will be on the top when grinding. Maybe edge reference line would hit the nail better.

For example the SE-77. Because of its pivot point the center line J is moved far away from C. Moreover, any correct angle has to be set on top of the straight edge (as shown in the Tormek manual). The blade itself may easily be 5mm thick, so that would amount to the offset.

For example the HK-50. Using a plate thick enough (say: 10mm) to clear any knife handle while grinding the bolster, as suggested, will produce a similar discrepancy.

Let me know what you think.

Hi
Sorry; I'm probably not quite sure I understand your question. But the idea has not been to use it for anything other than knife jigs.

Quote from: Perra on March 15, 2023, 10:27:57 PMBut the idea has not been to use it for anything other than knife jigs.

Thanks. That makes it clear.

Perra,

I think you have designed an innovative, useful tool. The question comes up with every tool design, Do we design for general purpose or to excel for one task?

I would rather have a tool designed to excel at one task. If I neededa similar tool for any of the other mentioned jigs, I would prefer to have a second tool specifically designed for that task.

Ken

Perra,

while re-reading your reply the suspicion creeps in that we are not talking about the same thing. Thus the subject is worth revisiting.

While I was initially talking about your T-cube, I was later-on talking about your piece of software that, amongst others, uses the T-cube.

I try to reformulate my question: does your software take into account that some jigs are so thick, that the projection line is shifted several millimeters up resp. out of the center? (In case of the SE-77 this has a fulcrum point at the USB, but the projection line is several cm away).

Dutchman addresses this problem in the aforementioned document; I am not good enough with the math to see it myself, but this may have well been cared for by the jig diameter parameter.

This kind of thing happens if you use the cbwx34-fix or HK-50.

I am quite fond of your "lite" program because it is .... lite for using. And it runs on my system without any Microsoft gew-gaws.

Quote from: aquataur on March 17, 2023, 02:55:47 PM... snip
And it runs on my system without any Microsoft gew-gaws.

Hihi, I learned a new word: 'gewgaws'. I googled the meaning: "... They're not valuable or useful." Typical for many controls in Microsoft's products.

Quote from: aquataur on March 17, 2023, 02:55:47 PMtry to reformulate my question: does your software take into account that some jigs are so thick, that the projection line is shifted several millimeters up resp. out of the center? (In case of the SE-77 this has a fulcrum point at the USB, but the projection line is several cm away).

Hello
The program is also designed to be used only for knife jigs. In settings you can adjust the jig diameter for different jig thicknesses, for example my KJ-45 is 11.8mm in diameter. There is no possibility to move the fulcrum to fit other types of jigs.
This might be a 'gewgaws'

Quote from: Perra on March 18, 2023, 01:46:59 PM

Quote from: aquataur on March 17, 2023, 02:55:47 PMtry to reformulate my question: does your software take into account that some jigs are so thick, that the projection line is shifted several millimeters up resp. out of the center? (In case of the SE-77 this has a fulcrum point at the USB, but the projection line is several cm away).

Hello
The program is also designed to be used only for knife jigs. In settings you can adjust the jig diameter for different jig thicknesses, for example my KJ-45 is 11.8mm in diameter. There is no possibility to move the fulcrum to fit other types of jigs.
This might be a 'gewgaws'

I'm pretty sure you can.  I learned it from jvh in this thread (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php/topic,4971) that the formula is a bit "generic" (for lack of a better word?). It will calculate the USB height, as long as you can figure out the Jig Diameter, and Projection Distance adjustments.

jvh has provided some of this information under the "Jigs" tab of TormekCalc.  I tested the SE-77 settings in your calculator and it worked. 

So, as long as a person can figure out the Jig Diameter and any Projection Distance adjustments,  the calculator should work.

Quote from: Dutchman on March 18, 2023, 10:29:10 AMHihi, I learned a new word: 'gewgaws'.

I typically remember the useless, but funny words... ::)

Quote from: cbwx34 on March 18, 2023, 02:47:01 PMI tested the SE-77 settings in your calculator and it worked. 

Thanks for checking this out. I suspected it may work.

@Perra, thanks for this clarification.

I just realize that my quest was condemned to fail right from the start, since the setting of T-USB to achieve a certain angle hinges on a stable projection distance - i.e. a jig that "locks" the knife´s edge to the USB.

How daft. I have created a lot of commotion for nothing.

Quote from: cbwx34 on March 18, 2023, 02:47:01 PMI'm pretty sure you can.  I learned it from jvh in this thread (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php/topic,4971) that the formula is a bit "generic" (for lack of a better word?). It will calculate the USB height, as long as you can figure out the Jig Diameter, and Projection Distance adjustments.

Thanks cbw..
You are right, as always. Just haven't thought of the possibility myself.  :D

Perra,

I just stumbled over a thing...

All T-USB calculation hinges on the fact that the projection line goes (ideally) exactly through the center of the (knife-) jig.

With the T-Cube, the real projection line is offset of the ideal projection line by 1mm up, which is comprised by the thickness of the ruler blade.

I have addressed the offset error above (although we were speaking of amounts 10x higher), and it goes back to Dutchman´s printed manuals.

You were trying to compensate for the offset by introducing the 6mm ridge which adds to the USB, but in combination with the ruler this effects to 7mm.

You could make the ridge smaller by a millimeter, resulting in a total offset of 5+1 mm, but that would not cure the problem down where the ruler meets the stone.

I don´t know how large the error will be in degrees, but there is an error. The digital unit will be insensitive to that, but the anglemaster will show false values. All measurements thereof have to be referred to the exact point where the edge meets the stone and not 1mm higher. You could however grind a sharp edge on the ruler...

Let me know if I am wrong. This may well be.

QuoteWith the T-Cube, the real projection line is offset of the ideal projection line by 1mm up, which is comprised by the thickness of the ruler blade.

The measurement on the top of the ruler is at the same distance as on the bottom of the ruler, so when the USB is raised to the point that the ruler can freely pass, the measurement does not actually have a 1mm offset.

Another way to think about it: imagine you could make the measurement and flip the ruler over, is it not the same distance?

Quote from: ArtOfSharp on March 22, 2023, 04:12:45 AMThe measurement on the top of the ruler is at the same distance as on the bottom of the ruler

This is certainly true for an angle cube, or whatever those digital units may call themselves, but not for the angle master. The error may be small, but this whole issue is about improving precision.

Quote from: aquataur on March 22, 2023, 10:50:18 AM...
The error may be small, but this whole issue is about improving precision.

For me, the issue is about improving consistency, not necessarily precision.  (If you're using the AngleMaster, precision is probably not a main point anyway.)  Using a flat ruler is arguably more accurate than setting the AngleMaster on the side of a knife with a taper, but it is also more consistent.

When calculators "arrived", too much emphasis was placed on accuracy... most of which was later proven unnecessary.  While I don't know the exact error (if any) in using the T-cube as pictured, a simple test should give you an idea... just set the USB using a calculator, then check it with AngleMaster.  I think you'll find it pretty close, (not degrees) and if all you ever used was the T-cube and AngleMaster... consistent.

I think any method that is decently accurate, say +- a degree, consistent, and repeatable, will give most users the desired result.

I have a question about using the T-cube...

In this photo the T-Cube seems to be under/behind the USB (on the same side as the person when looking at the main wheen on the left side of the Tormek) when measuring to the wheel.
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=6136

Is this the method for measuring when using the Angle Calculator software?

Or should the T-cube be placed on top of the USB (on the jig side as would be used when sharpening)?

The reason i ask is that the measurements are different from other calculators.

For example, a jig length of 128, and angle of 10 degrees, in the Angle Calculator i get 62.64.
You cannot view this attachment.

But in another calculator the measurement is 61.43.
You cannot view this attachment.

Quote from: ArtOfSharp on March 22, 2023, 03:58:01 PMI have a question about using the T-cube...

In this photo the T-Cube seems to be under/behind the USB (on the same side as the person when looking at the main wheen on the left side of the Tormek) when measuring to the wheel.
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=6136

Is this the method for measuring when using the Angle Calculator software?

Or should the T-cube be placed on top of the USB (on the jig side as would be used when sharpening)?

The reason i ask is that the measurements are different from other calculators.

...

The side doesn't matter.  I believe that's actually a difference in calculators.  The 2nd calculator is Dutchman's?  And I think it was created before the "fix".  If you look at the line above the chart (if it's the same one), I see this...

 You cannot view this attachment.
(Replaced picture with a better one)

... that says USB center to Stone.  (The original calculator made this and some other assumptions that the "fix" fixed.)  ;)

Quote from: cbwx34 on March 22, 2023, 03:08:16 PMFor me, the issue is about improving consistency, not necessarily precision.  (If you're using the AngleMaster, precision is probably not a main point anyway.)  Using a flat ruler is arguably more accurate than setting the AngleMaster on the side of a knife...

I agree. With the AM the result will be better using the ruler, with a digital cube the offset is not relevant.

I think the question already been answered.  :)