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In the Shop => Knife Sharpening => Topic started by: BeSharp on December 30, 2020, 01:20:53 AM

Title: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: BeSharp on December 30, 2020, 01:20:53 AM
SUMMARY: A $50 investment could be a faster, more repeatable way to set Tormek Universal Support Bar ("USB") height. It may not result in "bragging rights" BESS numbers, but I consistently get BESS numbers below 100. 

BACKGROUND

Computer software has taken Tormeks into the 21st Century. I use calipers to set the USB height. However, I was not happy because:

1) Regular calipers are poor depth calipers. The caliper end is barely wide enough to go over the 12mm diameter USB. That is why both my calipers have depth gauge adapters on the ends. However, even after setting them up using a flat reference surface, I found one caliper measuring .1mm short and the other measuring .1mm long.
2) Parallax error. Unless the extended leg is absolutely vertical, the measurement will be too long.
3) Speed - moving the caliper to the desired measurement takes time. My iGaging calipers have what they call "Absolute Origin" - they remember where they are even after shutting off. This helps, but I wanted better.
4) Poor repeatability due to the above three things.
5) Longer USB means larger errors the farther one is away from the two vertical legs. Tormek's new US-430 is 34% longer than the US-105.
Some after-market USB legs are smaller (11.83 mm diameter vs. 12 mm diameter).  Such bars could result in not being parallel with the Tormek's top surface due to play inside the 12mm diameter Tormek leg sleeves.
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: BeSharp on December 30, 2020, 01:25:32 AM
USE INSIDE MEASUREMENT INSTEAD?

I use Australian software. All three (Grinding, Frontal Vertical Base, and Paper Wheel) calculate the USB height to the USB's top.

But what if we measure instead to the USB's bottom? Then we are dealing with an inside measurement.

USB diameter is 12mm. So, all we have to do is subtract 12mm to get the corresponding inside measurement. Simply fill the desired space with the correct spacers (conveniently held down by gravity), and you're done. In contrast to using calipers, the strengths are:

1) Could be more accurate (more on this below)
2) Much less parallax error
3) Faster
4) Easily repeatable
5) Using TWO sets of spacers can help setup a USB parallel to a Tormek's top surface. 
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: BeSharp on December 30, 2020, 01:28:27 AM
SPACERS

Spacer sets, commonly known as gauge block sets, are highly accurate metal blocks that can be stacked together to form your desired spacer. There is virtually zero cumulative error from stacking gauge blocks with flat machined surfaces due to "wringing". (For a fascinating history on gauge blocks, search Mitutoyo's web site for the PDF, "History of The Gage Block" under Literature > Corporate. "Wringing" is explained on page 5).

However, two budget-friendly 102 piece gauge block sets would still cost around $300. So I went for a cheaper solution, comprising of 1-2-3 gauge blocks ($30), a 10mm gauge block ($20), a 1/16" to 1/2" drill bit set in 1/64" increments (already have), and a set of metric feeler gauges (already have). Total outlay: $50. (I have two sets, so my outlay was $100.)
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: BeSharp on December 30, 2020, 01:31:10 AM
METRIC GAUGE BLOCKS

Machinists are familiar with 1-2-3 gauge (setup) blocks - they are precisely machined and ground to have 1" x 2" x 3" sides. Since my software is metric, I bought 25mm-50mm-75mm gauge blocks.

For the last bit of space, I use feeler gauges (0-1.0mm) or, when greater than 1mm, drill bits.

But are 1/64" drill bit increments small enough?

Some of the Australian sharpener's protocols (i.e. for Shun) varies the angle by only .1 degree. His software calculates that to be about .15mm USB height variance (about .00590"). 1/64" = .015625" = about .4mm. So, 1/64" difference translates to .27 degrees difference - too coarse to vary the angle by .1 degree. In other words, using 1/64" incremental drill bits yields .27 degree sharpening angle accuracy. (Metric drill bits go up in .5mm increments = .33 degrees).

Despite this, I found using gauge blocks plus 1/64" increment drill bits seems to yield lower BESS values!
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: BeSharp on December 30, 2020, 01:35:31 AM
REAL LIFE RESULTS

The first picture shows setting up a T7's USB height. Software says 168.89mm to top of USB, so target inside measurement is 168.89mm - 12.00mm = 156.89mm.

The 156.89mm is set with two metric 25-50-75 setup blocks plus a 17/64" drill bit (75mm + 75mm + 6.746mm = 156.75mm). With this spacer combo, it's .14mm too low.

You would think using such drill bits means duller edges. But my experience yields sharper edges. Before, my BESS readings seem to be around 100 (at 15 degrees). Now they seem to be around 80.

I can comfortably say I am not having higher BESS readings using this inside spacer method using 1/64" increment drill bits. In addition, it is faster to setup and much easier to repeat.
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: BeSharp on December 30, 2020, 01:39:16 AM
LABELS

I also made magnetic labels marked with the spacers needed. I can now glance at a machine and immediately see what it is set for. If I need to change the angle I switch labels and adjust the USB height per that label's instructions. No software calculations.
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: BeSharp on December 30, 2020, 01:41:57 AM
USB NOT PARALLEL TO TORMEK TOP

Tormek recommends setting the USB by pressing directly over the threaded leg while tightening the locking screw. Only after that should the other locking screw be tightened. However, some of my Tormek USB have legs that are not square with the top bar. With such USB, the Tormek method does not result in a USB parallel with the Tormek casing top.

Tormek USBs fit tightly into Tormek sleeves. Some aftermarket bars measure smaller - around 11.8 mm instead of 12mm. This means more play (One measured 1.18mm height difference between the two legs that are 90mm apart). This extrapolates to 3.74mm error at that bar's long end.   

The solution: set up using TWO sets of gauge blocks - one set close to the left edge of the Tormek's top, and the other set close to the right edge. Push down on BOTH legs at the same time, then tighten both locking screws (loosen the micro adjust nut(s) first, then snug them down afterwards). This works best on older Tormeks up to T7. The T8 has sloped left and right sides, so you cannot place gauge blocks there. The T8's on/off switch also blocks placing gauge blocks between the two cast leg sleeves.
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: BeSharp on December 30, 2020, 01:42:47 AM
CONCLUSION

This is an alternative, low-cost way to set computerized USB height. I find it is accurate enough for my needs - ensuring the pesky wire edge has been de-rooted (my sharpening business's main selling point is long edge life). However, if one is chasing ultimate "bragging rights" sharpness, then one should invest in a 102 piece gauge block set, or go back to the caliper method.
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: Ken S on December 30, 2020, 03:08:13 AM
Quote from: BeSharp on December 30, 2020, 01:41:57 AM
USB NOT PARALLEL TO TORMEK TOP

Tormek recommends setting the USB by pressing directly over the threaded leg while tightening the locking screw. Only after that should the other locking screw be tightened. However, some of my Tormek USB have legs that are not square with the top bar. With such USB, the Tormek method does not result in a USB parallel with the Tormek casing top.

Tormek USBs fit tightly into Tormek sleeves. Some aftermarket bars measure smaller - around 11.8 mm instead of 12mm. This means more play (One measured 1.18mm height difference between the two legs that are 90mm apart). This extrapolates to 3.74mm error at that bar's long end.   

The solution: set up using TWO sets of gauge blocks - one set close to the left edge of the Tormek's top, and the other set close to the right edge. Push down on BOTH legs at the same time, then tighten both locking screws (loosen the micro adjust nut(s) first, then snug them down afterwards). This works best on older Tormeks up to T7. The T8 has sloped left and right sides, so you cannot place gauge blocks there. The T8's on/off switch also blocks placing gauge blocks between the two cast leg sleeves.


BSharp,

Your paragraph two answers a question for me. Over the years, I have cut down several SVD-110s into small platforms. One day, I saw a marked down clone platform at a local dealer. It was outside the store as pRt of the sidewalk clearance sale. Before paying for it, I tried it on the support bar of the store demo Tormek. The bore was too small to fit on the Tormek support bar. It was probably made to fit an 11.8mm support bar, a poor design as most of the clones rely on Tormek for most of their jigs.
I would propose a different solution, use only Tormek support bars.

If you have an out of square Tormek support bar, contact support. (support@tormek.se)

All in all, I would say you have put together a very accurate system.

Ken
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: Hannsi1957 on December 30, 2020, 09:35:02 AM
please excuse me if i start smiling at your comments. ;) if you are already so meticulous about the whole thing..... maybe you can also tell me the difference in the degree of pain when i cut myself with an exactly 15° ground knife compared to a cut with a 15.05° ground knife? i'm sure you understand what i'm getting at..... you can also exaggerate everything. simple and comprehensible should be the motto. under this aspect, your explanations go absolutely too far for me.
but you have put a lot of thought into it, respect for that.
greetings Hanns
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: Ken S on December 30, 2020, 01:36:50 PM
Hanns, to answer your question, the difference in pain is .05°. I'm not sure what the metric equivalent is.     :)

Ken
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: BeSharp on December 30, 2020, 03:57:11 PM
Quote from: Hannsi1957 on December 30, 2020, 09:35:02 AM
please excuse me if i start smiling at your comments. ;) if you are already so meticulous about the whole thing..... maybe you can also tell me the difference in the degree of pain when i cut myself with an exactly 15° ground knife compared to a cut with a 15.05° ground knife? i'm sure you understand what i'm getting at..... you can also exaggerate everything. simple and comprehensible should be the motto. under this aspect, your explanations go absolutely too far for me.
but you have put a lot of thought into it, respect for that.
greetings Hanns

Hanns, I'm not sure if I understand your question. But then, your English is still way better than my German : )
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: RickKrung on December 30, 2020, 04:09:26 PM
Quote from: BeSharp on December 30, 2020, 01:42:47 AM
CONCLUSION

This is an alternative, low-cost way to set computerized USB height. I find it is accurate enough for my needs - ensuring the pesky wire edge has been de-rooted (my sharpening business's main selling point is long edge life). However, if one is chasing ultimate "bragging rights" sharpness, then one should invest in a 102 piece gauge block set, or go back to the caliper method.

BeSharp,

Very interesting approach.  Congratulations on some innovative thinking.  If I had not already switched to using the direct distance between the USB and the grinding wheels, I'd have to consider your methods for their excellent accuracy and consistency.  I always mark bevels with black marker as a visual check and have found I like accuracy and consistency more because they make the grinding and honing more efficient than for the precision of the final resulting bevel angles.  I have a T8, so I'd have to find alternative methods, given the sloping sides and power switch. 

With all of your machines and even with the use of diamond (and probably CBN) wheels with non-changing diameters, how is your method for "fiddly-ness" setting up the blocks/drills and gages?  Do they tend to topple at all?  Do you have machining capabilities?  If so, I'd consider making some precisely dimensioned single-piece-blocks to replace the 1-2-3 blocks (eg. ganging a set of four aluminum blocks on a mill and flycutting the surfaces exactly the same).  Unless you need the different dimensions of the 1-2-3 blocks for vastly different height settings.

And given your production needs in a business, I would think that a gage block set would prove its value in reducing the time required for set up.  I have such a gage block set, but they are not stainless steel, so I'd be concerned about them getting wet and corroding.  Likewise, I have two sets of gage pins, in 0.001" increments, from 0.625"-.0250" and 0.251"-0.500", which could really dial in your process.

Given your penchant for precision and accuracy and efforts towards parallelism of the USB bar, have you considered how parallel the tops of the machine cases are to the top surface of the grinding wheels?  Since the wheels ride on the shaft of a motor bolted inside the machine case, it is not necessarily a given that the shaft (and thus the wheel grinding surface) is parallel to the top of the machine. 

Again, great thinking,

Rick
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: BeSharp on December 30, 2020, 04:59:57 PM
Rick, the accuracy analysis using drill bits in 1/64" increments was to see if such increments were fine enough for my needs (de-rooting the wire edge) while NOT spending a lot of money. I'm guessing most members, like I, already have a set of drill bits and feeler gauges. I don't want to buy a set of gauge blocks if I don't have to. The conclusion is that, for my needs, I don't. Therefore, pin gages are really unnecessary too. It's good enough. Hopefully other members will conclude that it's good enough for them too.

The whole accuracy thing is not to make sure the angle is exactly 15 degrees versus 15.05 degrees, but to ensure that the edge doesn't get rounded off as it progresses through all the machines. My "rig" is designed for speed. For example, when sharpening Shuns, it goes through 3 grinding wheels on two T7s, 3 paper wheels on two different buffers, and a leather wheel on another T7 with a FVB. Therefore, I need to ensure the sharpening angle is consistent with all the machines. 

As for the degree of "fiddly-ness", that's the whole point. The blocks do not topple (on end they're still 25mm x 50mm).They barely fit between the wheel and the leg sleeves. This is where the T7 is better than a T8. Again, I find this method to be MUCH less fiddly than using calipers. (And larger drill bits are actually easier to work with than small ones!)

Perhaps later I will get some precisely machined custom blocks. But I'm happy with the way it is for now - again, because it's NOT fiddly. (Mitutoyo does make custom length gauge blocks...)

Finally, yes, all the above is based on the assumption that the machine top is parallel with the stone surface. I'm not going to try to address that : )
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: Drilon on December 31, 2020, 03:11:09 PM
 Well, I also have a simple way to get the software readout values for the USB height to the Tormek. As an "anchor" for my depth caliper I use a small Neodym magnet cube with 5,0 mm edge length. On the housing of my T7 it sits firmly as the housing is made of steel (Magnetic_cube_1). On the FVB I had to fix it by a glue as the parts used there are non-magnetic (Magnetic_cube_2).

After setting the desired height on the caliper, which is the software readout minus 5,0 mm edge length of the magnet, I hold the end of the caliper near to the magnet cube and immediately the magnet grabs the end of the caliper. Now I can focus on adjusting the right USB height. Very simple, fast and no need to control marks and parallel lining.

Happy New Year, stay healthy!
Drilon
(//)
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: Gilles on January 06, 2021, 08:50:51 AM
BeSharp,

This is an interesting subject.

I had done my own USB and in order to avoid having a 11.8 mm screw thread in the guide, I have done the USB with only on a small length of thread. I use a pipe, and the screw to set up the right height.
In order to keep the USB parallel to the Tormek, I have done a screw thread on each leg, and I have done a mark on the 2 screws to keep the USB parallel.
I don't think it is as accurate as your system but the setup is probably easier.

As I use only stones, I can use the TT-50 Truing Tool to keep the USB parallel to the USB (and parallel to the Tormek front). This is why, the screw thread is so short. It allows me to use the truing tool while keeping the USB with the 12mm leg part in the guide.

However, this solution does not allow to use this USB in the horizontal position as the screw interfere with the knife jig. 

Regards

Gilles
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: BeSharp on January 06, 2021, 04:33:18 PM
That's awesome! Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: Ken S on January 06, 2021, 05:33:32 PM
These methods of adjusting the support bar height seem clever to me. However, I may not be seeing something. I do not see the need for much height adjustment. The adjustment screw of the Tormek knife jigs allows for enough adjustment range to set a common Projection for most knives at 139mm (or 140mm). A consistent grinding angle (eg. 15°) would also make a consistent Distance. With constant diameter diamond or CBN wheels, these settings will not change. With conventional grinding wheels, the change will be gradual, and the Distance setting should be modified every five or ten millimeters of diameter loss.

If you prefer another angle setting to 15°, only the initial set up Distance will be modified. Unless you are using the marker method, how many angle settings do you need?

This may sound like a commercial for the kenjig. For the record, I have had no financial gain from the kenjig, nor do I plan to.
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: BeSharp on January 06, 2021, 05:38:41 PM
I agree, Ken. For most sharpeners, the Kenjig is the ideal next step up from the Tormek WM-200.
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: Ken S on January 06, 2021, 07:21:14 PM
Good comment, BeSharp. I agree. I originally designed the tool part of the kenjig because I was having difficulty seeing the small bevel of most knives. I never intended it to go toe to toe with something as sophisticated as the Knife Grinders technique. Adapting my desire for simple automation in setting to Dutchman's Grinding Tables was a hyper leap forward. I also agree with your "for most sharpeners". In my opinion, very few of us need to go beyond the "next step up". While I share in the fascination with very mathematically precise sharpening, my home kitchen knives do not require it. Nor do I think that most customers would be willing to pay a comensurate price for that level of sharpening.

That's where the kenjig concept comes in. It allows a Tormek to do a solid job of sharpening with a minimum of set up time. The time and mental energy can be focused on the actual sharpening, rather than the set up.

I enjoy trying to be precise as much as the next guy. I believe the pioneering work done by members of this forum will raise the general level of sharpness. I also realize that our knives do not require the precision of interchangeable parts. It doesn't matter if all four knives in the knife block have slightly different bevel angles, as long as they are all sharp.

Ken
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: jvh on January 06, 2021, 08:22:07 PM
Hello,

angle setter similar to TTS-100 is better solution for me than KenJig because is independent on wheel diameter.  ;)

Note: This one is not mine, I show it for illustration only.
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: Gilles on January 07, 2021, 04:22:53 PM
Hi Ken,

I agree with you, home kitchen knives do not require so sharp edge... My wife cuts her fingers too much after my sharpening and I get yelled at! I hope it is not your case.
For me, better sharpening is more of a game. How sharp can I reach...

About my system, when you do your own USB, with a 12mm metal rod, after the classical screw thread, the rod is only 11.8 mm because I cannot do as well as Tormek. Therefore, a solution is to do the screw thread only on a short distance to keep the 12mm rod in the guide. Another solution can be to do screw tread on both legs and use two nuts. Having both solutions at the same time is probably not necessary as many other things can impact the accuracy of the sharpening.

The other things is I have done an excel sheet that compute the USB height while taking into account the thickness and the taper of the blade. And when I try to validate my calculation with practical exercises, I still have some differences.  So I try to remove as much as possible error in the sharpening angle. I do not have time actually to work on it, but I hope I could find my mistake one day...
Best regards
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: Ken S on January 07, 2021, 09:07:30 PM
I will try to reply to several good posts:

JVH, I agree, the TRS-100 is a more accurate tool. In fact, for my pre-kenjig work with chisels and plane blades, I used my TTS-100. In early posts with Jan, we recognized the value of the automatic diameter change compensation with the two metal wheels of the TTS-100. (As a side note, we can go directly from the 200 mm wheel of a T4 to a 250mm wheel of a T8 with ne need to compensate. To my simple mind, that is amazing.) I really hoped that Tormek might decide to make the setting jigs. They already had most of the CAD/CAM work done and a patent.

Jan converted a TTS-100 to a working setting jig, the first of several variations from forum members. One very happy consequence of this was the gift of two very nice jigs made by Mr. Livik of the Czech Republic on a 3D printer. Do you happen to know him, JVH?

I decided not to worry too much about diameter change. Diamond, CBN, and leather honing wheels don't wear down. For most of us, especially those who sharpen flat tools like knives, chisels and plane blades, a conventional grinding wheel will wear very slowly. Dutchman's tables were for every ten millimeters of diameter change. I forget whether it was Jan or Wootz who recommended using every five millimeters of change. That seems reasonable to me. Multiple kenjigs for different diameters are quick and easy to make or a single kenjig and modify it for diameter changes.

The three holes for different bevel angles seems clever; however, how many bevel angles do we really use?

Gilles,

I guesstimate the difference between 11.8mm and 12mm to be between two and three percent. Is that difference critical? As I understand it, Tormek uses its patented Torlock tapered locking surface on the sleeves. With careful technique, that should minimize out of parallel support bar problems.

While I appreciate your desire to keep parallel, I would miss having the horizontal option.

BeSharp,

Your rig is impressive. It seems just the ticket for high volume sharpeners.

Drilon,

Your use of a magnet to stabilize readings from the support bar to the frame certainly seems a step forward in obtaining stable, consistent readings.  I started out using the edge of the grinding wheel as my reference point. It doesn't vary between the 250 mm models and switching to a 200mm model just requires a few more minutes to make a second jig. I don't doubt that using the frame as the reference point also works; I have just never understood the need to switch.

I understand the fascination some of you have with very precise sharpening and innovation. I share that passion, even though my math background is limited.

Incidentally, my wife never complains about getting cut using the knives I sharpen; I do the cutting; she doesthe stove work.

Ken
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: BeSharp on January 09, 2021, 05:17:01 PM
Quote from: Ken S on January 06, 2021, 05:33:32 PM
These methods of adjusting the support bar height seem clever to me. However, I may not be seeing something. I do not see the need for much height adjustment. The adjustment screw of the Tormek knife jigs allows for enough adjustment range to set a common Projection for most knives at 139mm (or 140mm). A consistent grinding angle (eg. 15°) would also make a consistent Distance. With constant diameter diamond or CBN wheels, these settings will not change.

If you prefer another angle setting to 15°, only the initial set up Distance will be modified. Unless you are using the marker method, how many angle settings do you need?


Again, this is much more applicable for those who sharpen for a living. For example, here's what I had to deal with ithis week:

1) "normal" sharpening: 15 degrees, 140 mm.
2) A bunch of Shuns: 16 degrees, 140mm
3) machete: 20 degrees, 150mm
4) cleaver #1 (for vegetables): 15 degrees, 180mm
5) cleaver #2 (for bones): 20 degrees, 180mm
6) cleaver #3 - repair; very high blade (20 degrees, 190mm)
7) ESEE folding knife: 25 degrees, 140mm (blade is very thick - if I ground it at a lower angle, the bevels would "ride up" on the knife edges - so I had to sharpen at factory angles)
8) Globals at 12 degrees, 140mm (Japanese sushi restaurant)
9) Global bird's beak knife (curved blade; have to use pivot collar): 130mm
10) Serrated bread knives: 28 degrees, 140mm

As you can see, that's 6 different angles and 5 different projection distances. Add to that different de-burring angles for a felt wheel (+2 degrees for most, but +.6 for Globals), and calculating for 4 different machines (T7, T8, PowerFist buffer, Rikon buffer), and you can see why I developed this way to quickly change USB settings.
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: Ken S on January 09, 2021, 07:54:57 PM
BeSharp,

I see your point. Your sharpening world is much more complex than mine. I sharpen only for myself. 15° per side suits me, although as long as my knives are sharp, I'm not too fussy about the exact angle.

One of the things I appreciate about the Tormek is the versatility to handle many needs and expectations. Carry on and please continue to share your evolving methods. Sharing is how we all grow.

Ken
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: jvh on January 09, 2021, 10:09:24 PM
Quote from: BeSharp on January 09, 2021, 05:17:01 PM
...
As you can see, that's 6 different angles and 5 different projection distances. Add to that different de-burring angles for a felt wheel (+2 degrees for most, but +.6 for Globals), and calculating for 4 different machines (T7, T8, PowerFist buffer, Rikon buffer), and you can see why I developed this way to quickly change USB settings.

Hello,

I like your idea - height setting is quick and precise.

Quote
...
3) Speed - moving the caliper to the desired measurement takes time. My iGaging calipers have what they call "Absolute Origin" - they remember where they are even after shutting off. This helps, but I wanted better.
...
I use Australian software. All three (Grinding, Frontal Vertical Base, and Paper Wheel) calculate the USB height to the USB's top.

But if speed is so important for you why you use three applets + a lot of calculation when is possible to calculate all in one go?


jvh
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: BeSharp on January 11, 2021, 06:27:24 PM
Jvh, your TormekCalc is awesome. It's great that Tormek allows innovators like you and others to share their stuff which improves their Tormek experience.

Everyone's needs are different. I picked a path that I felt best suits my business needs. What I chose may well be totally wrong for others. There is no best path for everyone.
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: Fluehue on January 11, 2021, 08:56:16 PM
Quote from: BeSharp on January 11, 2021, 06:27:24 PM
Jvh, your TormekCalc is awesome. It's great that Tormek allows innovators like you and others to share their stuff which improves their Tormek experience.

Everyone's needs are different. I picked a path that I felt best suits my business needs. What I chose may well be totally wrong for others. There is no best path for everyone.

I really love to see that it's not just me that are completely hung up on 1/100mm. But my question is this. If you use the software from KnifeGrinders. The machine measurements are preloaded into the software. We know that not all Tormeks are manufactured within 1/10mm of each other. So even if you get every measurement 100% it is probably wrong since your machine is not the same as Knife Grinders machines.

But for some odd reason the software works very well, so does Tormek Calc.

So my question is this. How important is 0.1mm?

PS. Not being critical in any way, I really wonder since this is driving me batshit crazy from time to time :p
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: BeSharp on January 11, 2021, 09:29:41 PM
You're correct, there will obviously be variances between individual Tormeks. Only Tormek knows what tolerances their machines are built to (I vaguely recall a Tormek factory video showing it using Mitutoyo measuring equipment). Tormek also claims their T8's zinc body casting is "more accurate" than their T7, although I have a feeling that is more about the old XB-100 possibly being mounted skewed.

So we are forced to assume all machine measurements are the same, and that the machine top is perfectly parallel with the drive shaft. But errors are often cumulative (if you're really lucky, they could cancel each other out). So it's best to be as accurate as possible.

Some of KnifeGrinder's protocols involves decreasing the honing angle by .1 degree. That's why I analyzed whether a 1/64" step variation in drill bit sizes is sufficiently "fine" enough for that. I showed that it isn't. (For the record, I don't bother with the minus .1 degree step either).

It's a compromise between time, sharpness/edge retention, and equipment cost. I'm just trying to show a compromise between the three that fitted MY needs (under 5 minutes per knife / long edge retention (not ultimate sharpness)/ $50 investment).
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: cbwx34 on January 11, 2021, 10:16:19 PM
Quote from: Fluehue on January 11, 2021, 08:56:16 PM

I really love to see that it's not just me that are completely hung up on 1/100mm. But my question is this. If you use the software from KnifeGrinders. The machine measurements are preloaded into the software. We know that not all Tormeks are manufactured within 1/10mm of each other. So even if you get every measurement 100% it is probably wrong since your machine is not the same as Knife Grinders machines.

But for some odd reason the software works very well, so does Tormek Calc.

So my question is this. How important is 0.1mm?

PS. Not being critical in any way, I really wonder since this is driving me batshit crazy from time to time :p

The software "works well"... or to put it another way, you get sharp knives, more because of the consistency, vs. being "0.1mm" (or ".1°") accuracy.

So, don't let it drive you crazy... it's been demonstrated before that the claimed accuracy simply isn't there.  But, paying attention to the finer points will lead to increased sharpness... if that makes sense.
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: Fluehue on January 12, 2021, 11:49:43 AM
Quote from: BeSharp on January 11, 2021, 09:29:41 PM
You're correct, there will obviously be variances between individual Tormeks. Only Tormek knows what tolerances their machines are built to (I vaguely recall a Tormek factory video showing it using Mitutoyo measuring equipment). Tormek also claims their T8's zinc body casting is "more accurate" than their T7, although I have a feeling that is more about the old XB-100 possibly being mounted skewed.

So we are forced to assume all machine measurements are the same, and that the machine top is perfectly parallel with the drive shaft. But errors are often cumulative (if you're really lucky, they could cancel each other out). So it's best to be as accurate as possible.

Some of KnifeGrinder's protocols involves decreasing the honing angle by .1 degree. That's why I analyzed whether a 1/64" step variation in drill bit sizes is sufficiently "fine" enough for that. I showed that it isn't. (For the record, I don't bother with the minus .1 degree step either).

It's a compromise between time, sharpness/edge retention, and equipment cost. I'm just trying to show a compromise between the three that fitted MY needs (under 5 minutes per knife / long edge retention (not ultimate sharpness)/ $50 investment).

Thank you for your answer :)
I have been wondering, what country are you based in. I would like to come in contact with other Scandinavian knife sharpeners that do this for a living. I have started my own company and thought it would be nice to share ideas and other stuff with each other. I have many hunder hours with different tests in my workshop and I'm sure you others do aswell. Together we could become even better and talk more regulary. I alreaddy have contact with a very nice and humble fellow sharpener in Denmark.

Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: BeSharp on January 12, 2021, 03:01:20 PM
I'm in Vancouver, B.C., Canada 🇨🇦
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: jvh on January 12, 2021, 10:27:00 PM
Quote from: BeSharp on January 11, 2021, 06:27:24 PM
Everyone's needs are different. I picked a path that I felt best suits my business needs. What I chose may well be totally wrong for others. There is no best path for everyone.

Thanks for the reply, it is true and I have no problem with that. I asked because the reasons for the development of TormekCalc, among other things, were limitations in applets - the need to repeat calculations, the inability to save settings, a separate applet for each machine etc. And all these missing features mean more time needed...


Quote from: Fluehue on January 11, 2021, 08:56:16 PM
I really love to see that it's not just me that are completely hung up on 1/100mm. But my question is this. If you use the software from KnifeGrinders. The machine measurements are preloaded into the software. We know that not all Tormeks are manufactured within 1/10mm of each other. So even if you get every measurement 100% it is probably wrong since your machine is not the same as Knife Grinders machines.
So my question is this. How important is 0.1mm?

That's a good question and I usually try to be as precise as possible, because accuracy is my hobby.  :)
I have to agree with cbwx34 that consistency is a basic prerequisite for sharpness but I have to add that accuracy of setting (if you sharpen on different stones), is one the key how to get burrless and exceptional sharp edge even before honing.

How to reach the USB setting accuracy ±0.1 mm or better between different stones?
Using a caliper is one option but it requires precise measurement. BeSharp's spacer method is other option, easy and precise. KenJig is next easy and precise method.
But what about to calculate number of required Micro Adjust turns between two stones? Micro Adjust is graduated for each 0.25 mm, it is not so difficult to set it ot the half of graduation which is 0.125 mm. For me it's easy and precise enough...
Yes, there still remain deviations in protrusion measurement, USB height measurement, constants measurement which affect final angle but not final sharpness. Deviations which has impact to final results you can minimimize - if you want.


jvh
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: cbwx34 on January 13, 2021, 06:05:12 PM
Quote from: jvh on January 12, 2021, 10:27:00 PM
...

That's a good question and I usually try to be as precise as possible, because accuracy is my hobby.  :)
I have to agree with cbwx34 that consistency is a basic prerequisite for sharpness but I have to add that accuracy of setting (if you sharpen on different stones), is one the key how to get burrless and exceptional sharp edge even before honing.

How to reach the USB setting accuracy ±0.1 mm or better between different stones?
Using a caliper is one option but it requires precise measurement. BeSharp's spacer method is other option, easy and precise. KenJig is next easy and precise method.
But what about to calculate number of required Micro Adjust turns between two stones? Micro Adjust is graduated for each 0.25 mm, it is not so difficult to set it ot the half of graduation which is 0.125 mm. For me it's easy and precise enough...
Yes, there still remain deviations in protrusion measurement, USB height measurement, constants measurement which affect final angle but not final sharpness. Deviations which has impact to final results you can minimimize - if you want.

jvh

I agree with this, but I was specifically referring to not worrying about the claimed .1mm or .1° accuracy.  It's simply not there... in particular switching between Knifegrinder's apps. ( I'm pretty sure the argument could also be made that the original study wasn't actually setting angles with that level of accuracy either, so the "need" to make .x changes isn't necessary for that reason also).  The apps don't do it... so there's no need to worry about the .x accuracy.  But you get consistency... so nothing wrong with following it.  I think the process makes the knife sharp... not the accuracy... i.e. just creating a burr and honing it off (often in multiple stages).

Even using just one app or calculator, I would question the ability to set angles to that degree (pun intended).  For example, the recent discussion of angle changes just switching between stone sizes... the basic calculators don't account for that... it takes additional calculations.  NOT significant in most cases... but .x accurate???

The reality, you/anyone could probably come up with a variety of processes of sharpening and honing that would give the same results, without the "need" of such small adjustments. ;)
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: jvh on January 22, 2021, 10:40:42 PM
Quote from: cbwx34 on January 13, 2021, 06:05:12 PM
Even using just one app or calculator, I would question the ability to set angles to that degree (pun intended).  For example, the recent discussion of angle changes just switching between stone sizes... the basic calculators don't account for that... it takes additional calculations.  NOT significant in most cases... but .x accurate???

The reality, you/anyone could probably come up with a variety of processes of sharpening and honing that would give the same results, without the "need" of such small adjustments. ;)

Hello,

reach the accuracy about 0.1 mm between the stones isn't so difficult. USB has thread pitch 1,5 mm and Micro adjust nut is graduated by 0,25 mm. If you take a half division you have 0,125 mm. It would not be difficult to achieve a quarter division (and I tried it), but it is not too practical. If you know this, just measure the height of the USB at the first stone and then adjust it just by turning the Micro adjust nut. Of course, you have to calculate difference between stones and... you are right, basic calculators don't account for that, so you have to calculate difference between stones manually. I am to lazy to do this way...  ;)

jvh

Note: The examples are not from actual grinding procedures, they are only used to give you an idea...
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: cbwx34 on January 23, 2021, 04:47:18 PM
Quote from: jvh on January 22, 2021, 10:40:42 PM
Hello,

reach the accuracy about 0.1 mm between the stones isn't so difficult. USB has thread pitch 1,5 mm and Micro adjust nut is graduated by 0,25 mm. If you take a half division you have 0,125 mm. It would not be difficult to achieve a quarter division (and I tried it), but it is not too practical. If you know this, just measure the height of the USB at the first stone and then adjust it just by turning the Micro adjust nut. Of course, you have to calculate difference between stones and... you are right, basic calculators don't account for that, so you have to calculate difference between stones manually. I am to lazy to do this way...  ;)

jvh

Note: The examples are not from actual grinding procedures, they are only used to give you an idea...

Theoretically... maybe... practically, I say... no way.  Heck, I doubt a stone is accurate to that level. 

Open a caliper .1mm... you can barely see light thru it.

We don't even have the (practical) ability to measure such a change... let alone say it makes a difference in "sharp". ;)

Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: Dutchman on January 24, 2021, 10:09:25 AM
Quote from: cbwx34 on January 23, 2021, 04:47:18 PM
... snip
We don't even have the (practical) ability to measure such a change... let alone say it makes a difference in "sharp". ;)
Agree!
Moreover, you have the best accuracy if you allow as few variables as possible to determine the tolerance in the accuracy. Hence your app "Calcapp calculator" at https://connect.calcapp.net/?app=qq0pg0#/ is the best app for this topic imho.  ;)
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: RickKrung on January 24, 2021, 04:38:44 PM
Quote from: Dutchman on January 24, 2021, 10:09:25 AM
Quote from: cbwx34 on January 23, 2021, 04:47:18 PM
... snip
We don't even have the (practical) ability to measure such a change... let alone say it makes a difference in "sharp". ;)
Agree!
Moreover, you have the best accuracy if you allow as few variables as possible to determine the tolerance in the accuracy. Hence your app "Calcapp calculator" at https://connect.calcapp.net/?app=qq0pg0#/ is the best app for this topic imho.  ;)

I'm curious about this statement, Dutchman.  I would think that the direct measurement of the distance to the stone from the USB would be the method with the fewest variables, which more than "Calcapp" offer, do they not?  I haven't followed or looked to check, but I thought the spreadsheet one does also.  I use GoCalc, but it is just another platform of CB's Calcapp, if I'm not mistaken.

Rick
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: cbwx34 on January 24, 2021, 05:23:34 PM
Quote from: RickKrung on January 24, 2021, 04:38:44 PM
Quote from: Dutchman on January 24, 2021, 10:09:25 AM
Quote from: cbwx34 on January 23, 2021, 04:47:18 PM
... snip
We don't even have the (practical) ability to measure such a change... let alone say it makes a difference in "sharp". ;)
Agree!
Moreover, you have the best accuracy if you allow as few variables as possible to determine the tolerance in the accuracy. Hence your app "Calcapp calculator" at https://connect.calcapp.net/?app=qq0pg0#/ is the best app for this topic imho.  ;)

I'm curious about this statement, Dutchman.  I would think that the direct measurement of the distance to the stone from the USB would be the method with the fewest variables, which more than "Calcapp" offer, do they not?  I haven't followed or looked to check, but I thought the spreadsheet one does also.  I use GoCalc, but it is just another platform of CB's Calcapp, if I'm not mistaken.

Rick

Thanks Dutchman...

Rick, you are correct, more than Calcapp give the "USB to Wheel" measurement.  For example, in jvh's TormekCalc spreadsheet, it's given as "T USB", as seen in the picture (I also show the related "help" notes)...

(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4569.0;attach=5367)

I think you may be the only one using the GoCalc app.    ;)
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: RickKrung on January 25, 2021, 02:21:40 AM
Quote from: cbwx34 on January 24, 2021, 05:23:34 PM
...snip...
I think you may be the only one using the GoCalc app.    ;)

Fine by me.  I just hope it stays available.  Simple, easy to use and lives on my iPhone and is with me continuously. 

Rick

(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4569.0;attach=5375)
Title: Re: A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height?
Post by: jvh on January 26, 2021, 12:51:42 AM
Hello,

O.K., I try it once more because this topic name is "A Faster, More Repeatable Way to Set Up USB Height" and I think it doesn't mean repeat calculations and measurement of USB heigth over and over again between stones and knives when it's not really needed.

Quote from: Dutchman on January 24, 2021, 10:09:25 AM
Agree!
Moreover, you have the best accuracy if you allow as few variables as possible to determine the tolerance in the accuracy. Hence your app "Calcapp calculator" at https://connect.calcapp.net/?app=qq0pg0#/ is the best app for this topic imho.  ;)

IMHO it depends on accuracy of the constants measurement. If you do it precisely and/or check results via distance from USB to the stone surface and make the corrections the deviation between measurement to the stone surface or Tormek's body is neglible. Personally, I consider both methods to be completely comparable.

I would like to add again that all calculators are nearly the same in "basic" mode because you have to enter the same values - Projection distance, Grinded angle and Stone diameter (and constants if you want to measure from Tormek's body.)




Now example from batch grinding of three knives on the same machine. Only two measurement of USB height are needed - one time for vertical USB and one time for horizontal USB. All other settings was done by turning of micro adjust nut because height difference between each step is calculated, thread pitch is 1,5 mm and Micro Adjust nut is graduated for each 0,25 mm. Calculation is precise, results are rounded to 1/12 (double graduation of Micro Adjust nut), showed value is halved (eg 0,5/6 turns), which correspond to 0,125 mm. More description you can find in the picture.

All values are calculated in one go and, of course, you can check heights at any moment...


jvh