Hello everyone,
let me introduce AngleJig, another way how to set your Tormek for grinding. ;)
Basic idea is simple - the angle formed by the tangents between the wheel and the universal support can be used for settings USB's heights. Angle t (tau) can be measured directly with suitable angle meter or indirectly with an inclinometer. Fixed jigs (e.g. plywood triangles) can be used with an angle ruler for direct setting too, it is similar as KenJig, but probably not so fast.
According to the performed tests the accuracy of setting is high, the large distance between the measuring points is very helpful. Setting with inclinometer is very easy, quick and universal for me and requires steel bar (magnetic) with stop pin only.
All calculations will be included in the new version of TormekCalc2 (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=4181.0), the functionality is ready, I'm still considering the look of the user interface...
For more information see pictures.
jvh
Bosch GAM 220 MF accuracy ±0,1°
Inclinometer INSIZE 2170-1 accuracy ±0,1° at 0° and 90°, other values ±0,2°
Quote from: jvh on July 26, 2020, 07:41:15 PM
Hello everyone,
let me introduce AngleJig, another way how to set your Tormek for grinding. ;)
Basic idea is simple - the angle formed by the tangents between the wheel and the universal support can be used for settings USB's heights. Angle t (tau) can be measured directly with suitable angle meter or indirectly with an inclinometer. Fixed jigs (e.g. plywood triangles) can be used with an angle ruler for direct setting too, it is similar as KenJig, but probably not so fast.
According to the performed tests the accuracy of setting is high, the large distance between the measuring points is very helpful. Setting with inclinometer is very easy, quick and universal for me and requires steel bar (magnetic) with stop pin only.
All calculations will be included in the new version of TormekCalc2 (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=4181.0), the functionality is ready, I'm still considering the look of the user interface...
For more information see pictures.
jvh
Interesting! Not much to say other than 👍 👍 !!
Thanks for your continued effort! 🙂
don't get me wrong, i think your calculator is great, but i think you overtax people. too much information and too many parameters. I'm thinking more about making it simple and clear.
cheers Hanns
JVH,
I obviously have a soft spot for the humble kenjig. However, that does not prevent me from seeing the value in other ideas.
Your use of an inclinometer is very clever. I especially like that it reads directly in degrees.
I think of the kenjig and the inclinometer as specialty players on the same team, rather than rivals. I agree with you that the kenjig is faster, in the right conditions. It was originally designed to combine the accuracy of Ton Nillesen's grinding tables with an easy to make, inexpensive tool which would essentially eliminate the need for measurements. My original target audience was beginners or those having trouble using the Anglemaster. It allowed the beginner or infrequent user to focus his attention on the actual grinding part of the process instead of fretting over measuring.
The kenjig is primarily designed for setting to a single bevel angle and wheel diameter, although it is not limited to these.
However, if I was the team coach, for more complicated situations like sharpening knives with different angles, I would send in the inclinometer. A good coach uses all of his players.
I do not think this use of an inclinometer is overtaxing. Sadly, I do not think that many of us will make the effort to understand it, just as very few of us bothered to concentrate enough to understand Ton's (Dutchman's) grinding angle booklet or the kenjig. Understanding Dutchman's ideas was not easy for me. My 1968 high school mathematics training has become rusty over the years with use. Grasping Dutchman's ideas was a struggle for me at first. The effort has been very rewarding.
I look upon all this as an evolving process. Ton first brought the trigonometry of ancient Greece to the forum in 2013. The kenjig put those ideas into a simple tool. I was very pleased when Jan understood the Kenjig. He understood both Dutchman's math and the practical value of the jig. Among other things, Jan contributed the janjig, a double ended jig which incorporated the leather honing wheel into the jig.
Numerous others have contributed to this process. We now have several computer programs and now have included the use of an inclinometer. These are all worthy steps forward. Do not feel we have reached "the final word". As long as we are willing to make the creative effort, this evolutionary process will continue. I wish Torgny Jansson could see how his grinding machine has evolved.
Ken
Quote from: Hannsi1957 on July 28, 2020, 11:29:57 AM
don't get me wrong, i think your calculator is great, but i think you overtax people. too much information and too many parameters. I'm thinking more about making it simple and clear.
cheers Hanns
I see each as fulfilling a different purpose. While I like the simplicity of a calculator or app for a quick setup, after spending some time with TormekCalc (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=4181.msg31073#msg31073), there are advantages to it too... the ability to see settings for several wheels and/or machines in one area, having a database of how you sharpened knives, notes on the steel, etc. all combine to give it advantages in its own right.
Best of both worlds, IMO. ;)
I agree, CB. I neglected to include that the original design guidelines for the kenjig included being designed for one wheel.
Ken
Let the testing begin... ;D
(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4393.0;attach=4700)
I spent the weekend testing "AngleJig". After an initial setback of figuring out (thanks jvh) my digital angle cube needed re-calibrating >:( I otherwise found the procedure accurate, and easy to set up and use.
So, no other problems... works well. Removing a decimal point i.e. measuring to the nearest tenth puts results within a degree, and makes setting quick and easy. (If you're into decimal angle settings, I'm not sure this is the route I'd take... in theory it'll work, but practically may not).
I plan on making it my primary setup method for a while... see where it takes me.
Thanks again jvh!
And can I just say, I miss this... a lot...
Quote from: Jan on March 16, 2019, 08:44:38 PM
Jvh, thanks for sharing your TormekCalc - Excel spreadsheet! It is quite sophisticated script.
I have checked the numerical accuracy of your TormekCalc by calculating the height of the USB above Tormek housing and also the distance between the USB and the wheel surface. I can confirm that your results are identical with my results with an accuracy of 0.001 mm. Congratulations! :)
Jan
...wish he was here for this one (and many more). I'm sure he would have liked AngleJig.
sry
Quote from: cbwx34 on August 03, 2020, 03:00:07 PM
Let the testing begin... ;D
I spent the weekend testing "AngleJig". After an initial setback of figuring out (thanks jvh) my digital angle cube needed re-calibrating >:( I otherwise found the procedure accurate, and easy to set up and use.
So, no other problems... works well. Removing a decimal point i.e. measuring to the nearest tenth puts results within a degree, and makes setting quick and easy. (If you're into decimal angle settings, I'm not sure this is the route I'd take... in theory it'll work, but practically may not).
I plan on making it my primary setup method for a while... see where it takes me.
And can I just say, I miss this... a lot...
cbwx34, thank you for testing and feedback!
I am testing too, still comparing calculated heights vs angle values and didn't find any problem yet. As you said - accurate, and easy to set up and use with suitable inclinometer.
... and I miss Jan's comments too ... :(jvh
I have not forgotten about this... :)
I ended up getting a new angle gauge...
(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4393.0;attach=4985)
... my other one seemed to jump around a lot and would take a while to "settle", and well, this was a good excuse. :D This one quickly settles down, and seems a bit more consistent.
Anyway, I've tested this both by using the "AngleJig" to set the angle, then comparing the results with other methods, and also doing the reverse (setting with another method and then checking with "Angle Jig"). I'm more than pleased with the results... consistently within a degree (usually only "off" by around .2°-.5°), and once I got use to doing it, was as quick any other method.
So, my .02... give it go!!!
JVH,
Over the years, we have had numerous forum topics requesting ideas for stands or benches to hold our Tormeks. Your Angle Jig makes me aware of an important overlooked consideration. A well designed Tormek bench for critical work should be accurately level. Good periodic routine maintenance should probably also include checking levelness.
Hanns,
Like you, I value simplicity. My kenjig is probably the least sophisticated of all of our bevel set up techniques and tools. It is designed to allow a casual or inexperienced user to obtain accurate, repeatable results without tedious measuring. Coincidentally, it can assist a busy sharpener switch back and forth between knife sizes. While the tool itself is quite simple, it is based on Dutchman's tables.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on October 19, 2020, 08:37:55 AM
...
Over the years, we have had numerous forum topics requesting ideas for stands or benches to hold our Tormeks. Your Angle Jig makes me aware of an important overlooked consideration. A well designed Tormek bench for critical work should be accurately level. Good periodic routine maintenance should probably also include checking levelness.
...
If you use a digital angle gauge, it is 'zeroed' on the Tormek, so it's not a requirement for the setup to be "accurately level".
Quote from: cbwx34 on October 18, 2020, 11:51:09 PM
Anyway, I've tested this both by using the "AngleJig" to set the angle, then comparing the results with other methods, and also doing the reverse (setting with another method and then checking with "Angle Jig"). I'm more than pleased with the results... consistently within a degree (usually only "off" by around .2°-.5°), and once I got use to doing it, was as quick any other method.
So, my .02... give it go!!!
Hello,
cbwx34 thank you again for thorough testing of "AngleJig" method! :)
By the way, AngleCube looks like very good gadget...
Quote from: Ken S on October 19, 2020, 08:37:55 AM
Over the years, we have had numerous forum topics requesting ideas for stands or benches to hold our Tormeks. Your Angle Jig makes me aware of an important overlooked consideration. A well designed Tormek bench for critical work should be accurately level. Good periodic routine maintenance should probably also include checking levelness.
As mentioned cbwx34, stand leveling isn't necessary for AngleJig method because "zeroing" is done on the Tormek body (or on USB's). But I agree that generally is good to have right leveled stand/bench (falling tools, dripping water, uniform bearings load etc.).
Quote from: Ken S on October 19, 2020, 08:37:55 AM
Like you, I value simplicity. My kenjig is probably the least sophisticated of all of our bevel set up techniques and tools. It is designed to allow a casual or inexperienced user to obtain accurate, repeatable results without tedious measuring. Coincidentally, it can assist a busy sharpener switch back and forth between knife sizes. While the tool itself is quite simple, it is based on Dutchman's tables.
Ken
I think that's about personal preferences. I agree that Kenjig is probably the fastest method and therefore is priceless for quick sharpenning sessions eg. on farmer markets. But it has own limits too, eg. if wheel diameter changes, sharpenning angle changes too and if you are sharpenning the same knife after some time, you will grind different angle (or you have to make an angle correction).
Calculator gives you more control and possibilities. There is no difference between simple and advanced calculator in input data - you have to enter same values - but big difference is in advanced functions.
For me are real time savers:
- Knives/Tools database which allows loading data from previous sessions
- Calculation for all used wheels on one go + angle correction possibility (honing)
Moreover you can print these setting, use it for current session and keep it to next one (useful for diamond and CBN wheels).
USB height setting between different wheels isn't so big problem, especially if you have in mind that graduation of micro adjust nut is 0.25 mm (1 turn = 1.5 mm).
As I said, it's mostly about personal preferences and we can benefit from both methods. I consider Kenjig as suitable option for field conditions and for ordinary knives. The calculator is a universal tool for the workshop, especially when precise control is required.
jvh
Quote from: jvh on October 19, 2020, 09:00:45 PM
...
Moreover you can print these setting, use it for current session and keep it to next one (useful for diamond and CBN wheels).
...
I did it for you. In my tables ;)
Quote from: Dutchman on October 20, 2020, 10:32:47 AM
Quote from: jvh on October 19, 2020, 09:00:45 PM
...
Moreover you can print these setting, use it for current session and keep it to next one (useful for diamond and CBN wheels).
...
I did it for you. In my tables ;)
I don't think so. I cannot find/load knife related data in your tables. Where is last grinded angle, protrusion, clamping, used jig, procedure etc.? ;)
Quote from: jvh on October 20, 2020, 03:15:12 PM
Quote from: Dutchman on October 20, 2020, 10:32:47 AM
Quote from: jvh on October 19, 2020, 09:00:45 PM
...
Moreover you can print these setting, use it for current session and keep it to next one (useful for diamond and CBN wheels).
...
I did it for you. In my tables ;)
I don't think so. I cannot find/load knife related data in your tables. Where is last grinded angle, protrusion, clamping, used jig, procedure etc.? ;)
Yeah... it's a bit of an "apples to oranges" comparison. Both have their place... but a different purpose.
We are looking for a one size fits all for a multifaceted problem. What might be an ideal solution for very high end sharpening would be impractical for garden variety sharpening. I do not feel that one technique is inheritently superior, nor do I feel that the methods are mutually exclusive.
Frankly, I am impressed with jvh's angle jig idea. I am impressed enough to have started research and price the Bosch tool. I may eventually invest in one; however, at this point, my sharpening budget has enough other priorities to make $200 US for the Bosch tool and inclinometer impractical for my needs.
As noted, the kenjig has some limitations. I do not find that any of these limitations exceed my needs. I work simply. A Projection of 139mm and bevel angles of 15 degrees per side are almost universal for me. Distance changes due changing wear diameter are becoming increasingly more rare. Diameter of any of the Tormek honing wheels has always been constant. Increasingly, we are using diamond of CBN grinding wheels with constant diameters. Even felt or paper wheels are either constant diameter or change very slowly.
For most of us, even the SG or SB wheels change diameter very slowly.
All of these factors do not negate the importance of our calculated setting programs. I find them useful in initial set up. I do not see much need for them in my everyday sharpening needs. I acknowledge that some user's needs may be more stringent than mine. I also believe that the needs of the typical Tormek user are no more demanding than mine. For many years, my printed out copy of Dutchman's original grinding angle booklet post and kenjigs have served me well.
I do not mean to disparage those providing more advanced research. I believe in the maxim that a rising tide floats all boats. We are certainly all benefitting from these sharpening innovations.
Ken
Ken,
no problem with that, well argumented as usual. If it fulfil your needs and you are satisfied with outputs there is no reason for changes.
If you want to try angle jig you need inclinometer only. Don't buy Bosch GAM because it is angle meter and it has limited usage. I used it just for checking t angle and it collide with table, water trough etc. I have it primarily for woodworking...
jvh
Thanks, JVH.
I will look into getting an inclinometer. Beall Tools is located near my grandchildren's school.
Ken
JVH,
I sent you a PM.
Ken
I want to pump this post up, how is this setup working and has it developed any?
When switching to honing wheel can i get a same accurate angle easily with digital angle guide?
-Tukkis
Quote from: Tukkis on October 09, 2022, 01:49:09 PM
I want to pump this post up, how is this setup working and has it developed any?
When switching to honing wheel can i get a same accurate angle easily with digital angle guide?
-Tukkis
While I liked the concept, I have to admit that I never used it beyond initial testing.
You might also look at the information and spreadsheet in this thread... https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=4885
I haven't tried this method, but posting to point out that there are many cheaper alternatives to the Bosch angle finder that are probably more than accurate enough for this. They can be found on Amazon for $16-22.
Please pardon me if it's a stupid question - is the change in a protrusion length of a jig+blade changes the edge angle?
Quote from: SergeiDubovsky on October 31, 2022, 07:20:02 PM
Please pardon me if it's a stupid question - is the change in a protrusion length of a jig+blade changes the edge angle?
The angle used for the Angle Cube is set with the same parameters as any other method (Projection Length, Sharpening Angle, etc.), so I guess the answer is Yes, but it is accounted for. (The length of the platform you set that Angle Cube on doesn't matter, as long as it's >= the Projection length.)
I got it. I was thinking about this wrong way. The angle is used to set the USB height. The knife jig have nothing to do with it.
Clever.
QuoteArriving Wednesday
BOSCH 4-in-1 Digital Angle Finder GAM 220 MF
;D
Quote from: SergeiDubovsky on October 31, 2022, 07:20:02 PM
Please pardon me if it's a stupid question - is the change in a protrusion length of a jig+blade changes the edge angle?
Hello,
yes, changing the protrusion length also changes the edge angle, it is always necessary to specify the correct protrusion length for the calculation.
Quote from: cbwx34 on October 31, 2022, 07:46:17 PM
The angle used for the Angle Cube is set with the same parameters as any other method (Projection Length, Sharpening Angle, etc.), so I guess the answer is Yes, but it is accounted for. (The length of the platform you set that Angle Cube on doesn't matter, as long as it's >= the Projection length.)
A small correction, just to be sure - the platform you set the Angle Cube on must be placed
over the USB and the highest point on the stone (= must be long enough).
jvh