I am not sure how to use the wm200 on a knife...
I have 2 knifes with the same cutting angle, but one of them have small enough cutting edge 1mm and I can't see use it rightly.... Any suggestions how to do it? In which case I am going to have my 15 degrees?
See attach to understand what I mean.
Sorry for my poor English :)
For knives I have stopped using the WM-200 Anglemaster.
I have gone to the calculator software available from several sources for setting the angle.
Here is an older thread that covers the WM-200 and introduces the calculator. If you search using "calculator" there is a wealth of information available.
If you have any questions after reading some of the material please feel free to ask.
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3573.msg23670#msg23670
Thanks a lot
I did search but I guess wrong key words :)
On to read it
Quote from: john.jcb on March 16, 2020, 02:52:13 PM
For knives I have stopped using the WM-200 Anglemaster.
I have gone to the calculator software available from several sources for setting the angle.
Here is an older thread that covers the WM-200 and introduces the calculator. If you search using "calculator" there is a wealth of information available.
If you have any questions after reading some of the material please feel free to ask.
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3573.msg23670#msg23670
I'll add a bit more...
Link to various calculators available:
http://sharpeninghandbook.info/indexCalc.html
Couple of videos on how the different ones work:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ8GxV04FOU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjLrG-2iawY
Even the KenJig description gives a pretty good description of the "factors" (Projection Distance, etc.):
http://sharpeninghandbook.info/Images/Tool-Jig-KenJig.pdf
and of course Dutchman's original work...
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=1849
8)
Thanks for adding this information CB.
This gives me an idea. I will start another thread and see what Ken thinks.
Hi,
Happy to see the follow-up from cbwx34.
The WM-200 is an exact way to find most angles on knives, chisels, planer blades and so on.
I understand that we have members that are using other methods which is fine, but for most Tormek users, the original attachments will help set up the correct angles perfectly.
Best,
Stig
Quote from: Stickan on March 16, 2020, 05:03:48 PM
Hi,
Happy to see the follow-up from cbwx34.
The WM-200 is an exact way to find most angles on knives, chisels, planer blades and so on.
I understand that we have members that are using other methods which is fine, but for most Tormek users, the original attachments will help set up the correct angles perfectly.
Best,
Stig
Except that
for knives, the WM-200 is not very exact. As has been stated before (many times), it does not account for blade taper from spine to edge. (A point that Tormek will not acknowledge). >:(
On large kitchen knives, it may not matter, it may be only a degree or two per side, or less. But on many pocket knives (EDC), hunting knives, and smaller kitchen knives, this can be a difference of over 2 to 6+ degrees per side.
So, to say, "
The WM-200 is an exact way to find most angles on knives,", or "
the original attachments will help set up the correct angles perfectly" especially if you follow Tormek's instructions for knives... is simply not accurate. :(
Paitos,the angle master is good for chisels but not very good for knives. ;)
Nevertheless you can use the procedure for thin knives from the Tormek handbook. In your case the figures will be 30⁰ instead of 40⁰ and 15⁰ instead of 20⁰. It works if the blade is correctly mounted into the knife jig and the blade is not tapered.
Jan
cbvx34,
As I wrote, most angles. There are thousands of different knife-blades offered and I agree on the fact that it can't be used on all of them. It is the same with a jig, its made to fit the most common tools. Making jigs is always a compromise of what it can accept.
I have sharpened some thousand knives and when I cant use the WM-200, I will replicate the original angle using a marker.
But it is correct that it can be tricky to find the correct angle on some hunting knives, especially knives that are custom-made since the designs many times are more for show than actually of use.
Best,
Stig
Quote from: Stickan on March 16, 2020, 07:50:41 PM
cbvx34,
As I wrote, most angles. There are thousands of different knife-blades offered and I agree on the fact that it can't be used on all of them. It is the same with a jig, its made to fit the most common tools. Making jigs is always a compromise of what it can accept.
I have sharpened some thousand knives and when I cant use the WM-200, I will replicate the original angle using a marker.
But it is correct that it can be tricky to find the correct angle on some hunting knives, especially knives that are custom-made since the designs many times are more for show than actually of use.
Best,
Stig
I will still disagree. I sharpen mostly EDC knives... I doubt 10% of them could be accurately set with the AngleMaster.
Also, to say, "if it doesn't work, I replicate the original angle", also isn't a good answer. Why? Cause most knives, come with an angle that is greater and/or uneven (different angles on each side), or has been improperly sharpened at a different angle. True, I can "eyeball" what I want... I've sharpened enough knives, that I can look at one, mark it with a marker, and then start at a lower/higher angle to get what I want. If you're learning, marking an edge and matching it is a great learning tool, but doesn't help if you want a more specific angle.
But that's not the point. The point is the WM-200 is simply not good for setting the angle you want, to sharpen a knife. In fact, a person just made a post in the Facebook group that basically said, he used the AngleMaster, messed up a knife, and I quote: "
I even emailed tormek support who were no help in how to use the angle master."
I assume you're back to working for Tormek? So here's my opinion. Continue to live in denial... or fix the issue. About the ONLY people I see saying the WM-200 works on knives... are from Tormek. I follow several sharpening forums, and users want a better/more accurate way of setting the angle. I'm not talking fractions of a degree, but being several degrees off and saying "no biggie" simply won't fly.
You said it yourself not too long ago... something along the lines that Tormek was surprised how many people bought a Tormek now, only to sharpen knives. These same people, I can promise you, are interested in setting a more accurate angle, than what many in the past have done.
I'm not being negative... I simply don't understand why the company continues to turn a blind eye to this.
I never left Tormek, I did work with another company too for a while, but back full-time a year ago. I am proud of doing my 10th year at Tormek.
I have no problem to agree that it doesn't work on 100% of all knives but that it's hard to use the angle master on EDC (Everyday carry knives) is something I can't agree on. On every demo I have done, I sharpen a large number of knives. I can agree that pocket knives are difficult, simply because most of the blades are smaller than the jig kan accept. But most folding knives, an example would be like a Spyderco or similar, are easy to set or find the angle on.
For those who sharpen kitchen knives or like a regular Mora knife or knives in that style, it works well too.
The most difficult knives I sharpen are often handmade, they have a very un-common blade thickness or blade design and are designed to not look like most common knives. Then I need to mount the jig on different places of the knife blade or use different technics when moving the jig on the support-bar.
When it comes to knives, and as you write, the edge is almost always a little off-center, not being in the middle of the blade. On most knives I find this to be so little that it doesn't need to be corrected or I eyeball it, which comes with experience.
I don't agree with your statement that we are denying that the VM-200 does not work on all knives. There are several other factors that can make it difficult to sharpen some knives. Also, have in mind that the knife-jig itself has a limit of blade thickness so if the back of the blade is to thick, the WM-200 and jig combined make it hard to get the edge centered. With all the different blade designs I would say it is normal that we can't cover all the designs with on jig or one angle setter.
You mentioned a FB post and if the user only checked the angle on one side, I can only guess since I don't follow all forums, he probably sharpened the edge more out of the center. If he had checked both sides he would have noticed that the angle did not match on both sides. I am surprised if he did not get an answer, which I can address to my colleagues in Sweden.
We are well aware of the growing knife sharpening interest and I and my colleagues that work on our other markets talk to sharpening business customers on a monthly basis which don't have the same experience as you describe, but that is from their use and needs.
I am aware that for some of the enthusiasts, collectors and "knife-nerds" the VM-200 and even knife jigs are not exact enough and they make their own systems and jigs. But have in mind that most users are still woodworkers, hobbyists, and DYI which find the system to work as expected for their needs. Most customers appreciate the easy set-up and for their needs, it is advanced enough as it is. It is easy to complicate things and make set-up and use to advanced.
With all of this said, we do listen to all users and try to make as many customers as possible satisfied with the system. Some things get rejected, some things we can make better. Some things are an easy fix and some things take years to make. That's the daily life of any manufacturer.
In general, most things have limitations and tolerances. It is very hard to make a system that works for everything. We try and we make changes when its time and fits to do so.
Best,
Stig
Quote from: Stickan on March 16, 2020, 10:50:00 PM
I never left Tormek, I did work with another company too for a while, but back full-time a year ago. I am proud of doing my 10th year at Tormek.
I have no problem to agree that it doesn't work on 100% of all knives but that it's hard to use the angle master on EDC (Everyday carry knives) is something I can't agree on. On every demo I have done, I sharpen a large number of knives. I can agree that pocket knives are difficult, simply because most of the blades are smaller than the jig kan accept. But most folding knives, an example would be like a Spyderco or similar, are easy to set or find the angle on.
For those who sharpen kitchen knives or like a regular Mora knife or knives in that style, it works well too.
The most difficult knives I sharpen are often handmade, they have a very un-common blade thickness or blade design and are designed to not look like most common knives. Then I need to mount the jig on different places of the knife blade or use different technics when moving the jig on the support-bar.
When it comes to knives, and as you write, the edge is almost always a little off-center, not being in the middle of the blade. On most knives I find this to be so little that it doesn't need to be corrected or I eyeball it, which comes with experience.
I don't agree with your statement that we are denying that the VM-200 does not work on all knives. There are several other factors that can make it difficult to sharpen some knives. Also, have in mind that the knife-jig itself has a limit of blade thickness so if the back of the blade is to thick, the WM-200 and jig combined make it hard to get the edge centered. With all the different blade designs I would say it is normal that we can't cover all the designs with on jig or one angle setter.
You mentioned a FB post and if the user only checked the angle on one side, I can only guess since I don't follow all forums, he probably sharpened the edge more out of the center. If he had checked both sides he would have noticed that the angle did not match on both sides. I am surprised if he did not get an answer, which I can address to my colleagues in Sweden.
We are well aware of the growing knife sharpening interest and I and my colleagues that work on our other markets talk to sharpening business customers on a monthly basis which don't have the same experience as you describe, but that is from their use and needs.
I am aware that for some of the enthusiasts, collectors and "knife-nerds" the VM-200 and even knife jigs are not exact enough and they make their own systems and jigs. But have in mind that most users are still woodworkers, hobbyists, and DYI which find the system to work as expected for their needs. Most customers appreciate the easy set-up and for their needs, it is advanced enough as it is. It is easy to complicate things and make set-up and use to advanced.
With all of this said, we do listen to all users and try to make as many customers as possible satisfied with the system. Some things get rejected, some things we can make better. Some things are an easy fix and some things take years to make. That's the daily life of any manufacturer.
In general, most things have limitations and tolerances. It is very hard to make a system that works for everything. We try and we make changes when its time and fits to do so.
Best,
Stig
Thing is, it's been years, and no change.
But, feel free to share your knowledge. Take a Spyderco that has a taper from spine to edge... and please demonstrate how you "accurately set or find" the angle on this knife. I'm interested!
Good morning,
I am not a fan of these "prove me wrong" discussions. There are many sides of an issue and as I explained in my earlier post, it is not only the WM-200 that is the reason behind finding a correct way to sharpen a blade as you want to.
Knife sharpening can get tricky when we start to look outside the common blade styles, because of all the different models of blades. If you want to get good at it, it takes time and practice. Even with Tormek and the support bar and jigs, you can use it in so many ways to actually find a way of sharpening a blade. It is as much in your hands as in the settings. But as I have stated earlier, there are blades that are very difficult to find the right angle on. I guess there are other systems available for those knives, I have not checked because I have not had a need to. It's no secret that many knife sharpeners have different systems to be able to sharpen different knives.
But certainly, I can add a video of sharpening tapered blades to our list of videos we need to make. It is not a prio but will be on the list.
I do think you miss a valuable point here and that is that Tormek has tried and worked hard for years to make a system that hopefully, anyone can use, on as many tools as possible. To be able to do that and to be able to use the same Angle setter on so many different tools, it has the design it has. The lastest change we have on it is the angle settings for flat sharpening for the side on the diamond wheels.
I did a search online and found a video I liked that shows the correct techniques, search for " Sharpening a Spyderco with Tormek" by Pavol Sandor. I don't know this user, it is not in English, and it's probably not the blade you would like to see sharpened, but note how he tilts the blade so he follows the original edge line. He starts with using the VM-200 and also uses a marker to be sure he had the correct edge line. Note also where ha had mounted the jig, close to the bolster. It is a nice video to see since he also shows close-ups of the VG-10 steel.
I also did a search on how many models of knives Spyderco have and I found out that they have over 200 models so I think it's fair to say that I would probably have problems with some of them.
Best,
Stig
Like Stig, I am also not a fan of "prove me wrong" type of conversations. Using the kenjig as an example, I have never meant to leave the impression that it is the only method that works. It is not, however, it has worked for me and satisfied my expectations. I fully understand that my needs and expectations will be different than many other members and that other methods may work better for them.
I have worked with two expert Tormek knife sharpeners. They work in different ways. One works essentially in the traditional Tormek method: He uses the standard knife jigs in the vertical, grinding into direction. He hones freehand, using the leather honing wheel. The other sharpener prefers to grind using the grinding away from the edge horizontal position. He grinds freehand almost all of the time and hones using other machines. Both are highly skilled with freehand sharpening. Neither happens to use a computer.
I am not saying that there is anything wrong with using a computer. Computer assisted methods are certainly very viable methods. Just as I do not believe that the traditional methods are the only choice for everyone, I do not believe computers are the only method.
I am concerned about the tone of this conversation. I hope we will all keep our posts civil.
Ken
Quote from: Stickan on March 17, 2020, 03:33:39 PM
Good morning,
I am not a fan of these "prove me wrong" discussions. There are many sides of an issue and as I explained in my earlier post, it is not only the WM-200 that is the reason behind finding a correct way to sharpen a blade as you want to.
Knife sharpening can get tricky when we start to look outside the common blade styles, because of all the different models of blades. If you want to get good at it, it takes time and practice. Even with Tormek and the support bar and jigs, you can use it in so many ways to actually find a way of sharpening a blade. It is as much in your hands as in the settings. But as I have stated earlier, there are blades that are very difficult to find the right angle on. I guess there are other systems available for those knives, I have not checked because I have not had a need to. It's no secret that many knife sharpeners have different systems to be able to sharpen different knives.
But certainly, I can add a video of sharpening tapered blades to our list of videos we need to make. It is not a prio but will be on the list.
I do think you miss a valuable point here and that is that Tormek has tried and worked hard for years to make a system that hopefully, anyone can use, on as many tools as possible. To be able to do that and to be able to use the same Angle setter on so many different tools, it has the design it has. The lastest change we have on it is the angle settings for flat sharpening for the side on the diamond wheels.
I did a search online and found a video I liked that shows the correct techniques, search for " Sharpening a Spyderco with Tormek" by Pavol Sandor. I don't know this user, it is not in English, and it's probably not the blade you would like to see sharpened, but note how he tilts the blade so he follows the original edge line. He starts with using the VM-200 and also uses a marker to be sure he had the correct edge line. Note also where ha had mounted the jig, close to the bolster. It is a nice video to see since he also shows close-ups of the VG-10 steel.
I also did a search on how many models of knives Spyderco have and I found out that they have over 200 models so I think it's fair to say that I would probably have problems with some of them.
Best,
Stig
I'm not asking you to prove anyone wrong... I'm asking for a demonstration of what you stated... that it is easy to find/set the angle with the WM-200. (The topic of this thread).
I watched the video... I wish someone could translate what he says at the beginning, because judging by his pointing, I think he describes the issue.
You also keep bringing up "other reasons" for being the reason a knife doesn't come out correct. I'm talking about one specific issue... putting a certain angle on a knife, using the WM-200. So, I'll present it as a "support request" for clarity.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Tormek:
I own a Spyderco Native knife. I would like to sharpen this knife at 20° (per side).
(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4236.0;attach=4290)
I followed the instructions in the Tormek manual, and set the angle as per the instructions. (See picture).
(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4236.0;attach=4286)
(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4236.0;attach=4292)
However, when I try to sharpen the knife, the angle seems too low to me. I marked the edge with a marker, and it is hitting at the top of the current bevel... this seems too low.
(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4236.0;attach=4288)
I don't want to match the current bevel, because I plan on maintaining the knife with XXXX, and would like the sharpened angle to be 20°.
Can you please tell me what I'm doing wrong, and how to set the correct angle?
Thanks
New User following the instructions
cb,
The knife you presented will likely have issues since it looks like the angle-setter doesn't fit on the primary grind surface. The design of the blade, with a thick back/spine, with a relatively small blade and with a, what it looks like, a hollow-grind primary bevel before the secondary bevel makes it difficult to use the WM-200.
What is important when sharpening a knife like this is to sharpen at the same edge angle every time once you have created an angle that is suitable for the use of it. And it is easy to repeat that angle with the marker method.
I will say it again, the WM-200 works on most common blades, I agree that it doesn't work on 100% of all the thousands of blades that are out there. There is no quick-fix to compensate for all of the knife blade designs in the world.
But also have in mind that the design of the WM-200 is for most common edge tools that we can sharpen with the system.
Best,
Stig
Quote from: Stickan on March 17, 2020, 10:23:26 PM
cb,
The knife you presented will likely have issues since it looks like the angle-setter doesn't fit on the primary grind surface. The design of the blade, with a thick back/spine, with a relatively small blade and with a, what it looks like, a hollow-grind primary bevel before the secondary bevel makes it difficult to use the WM-200.
What is important when sharpening a knife like this is to sharpen at the same edge angle every time once you have created an angle that is suitable for the use of it. And it is easy to repeat that angle with the marker method.
I will say it again, the WM-200 works on most common blades, I agree that it doesn't work on 100% of all the thousands of blades that are out there. There is no quick-fix to compensate for all of the knife blade designs in the world.
But also have in mind that the design of the WM-200 is for most common edge tools that we can sharpen with the system.
Best,
Stig
Fair enough.
I'll give you my answer....
if a person wants to use, or only has, the WM-200. ;)
(Sorry picture is small to meet the file size requirement).
(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4236.0;attach=4298)
If the knife is ground the same on both sides, you can do this...
1. Find a flat surface. Loosen the angle side knob and lay the AngleMaster on the surface as shown. (The wheel side should be tight, the setting doesn't matter). Record the measurement (in this case 19°).
2. Lay the knife on the surface with the area of the knife you're measuring to, flat on the surface.
3. Don't use the flat portion of the blade, if there is one.
4. Now lay the AngleMaster on the bevel (keeping the angle knob loose), and record this measurement (in this case 33°).
5. Subtract the 2 numbers 33-19=14, and divide by 2 = 7°. Add this number to the AngleMaster setting... so if you want the knife sharpened at 20° set the AngleMaster at 27°.
I'd say, you'll be within +- a degree. (I did the math on this one with a "triangle calculator"... the knife is 3.1mm thick and the side is 11.95mm, which came out to 14.9°, or about 7.5°per side).
(Sounds complicated, but the math most can do in their head, and it's really pretty easy).
(Ken will be along to talk about targets, but this is easier IMO).Obviously, there's other ways... I'm sticking with the WM-200 only here.
:)
Cb,
thanks for sharing this, some will find it useful for sure.
Another solution is to remove material on the angle setter, not on the side that touches the stone. By shortening down the length of the angle setter that touches the tool, it gives better access to more hollow-grinded primary bevels. I would not recommend that to other than users with these specific blades since it makes it more difficult to find the angle on some woodworking tools with a long flat surface.
Best,
Stig
I have found that honing at an angle of 1.5° to 2° greater than the sharpening angle (for most steels) has been a key factor in taking the sharpness of the knives I do to the next level. While restoring the factory edge is possible freehand I have found that guided honing using the jig takes it to another level.
Quote from: john.jcb on March 18, 2020, 11:00:48 PM
I have found that honing at an angle of 1.5° to 2° greater than the sharpening angle (for most steels) has been a key factor in taking the sharpness of the knives I do to the next level. While restoring the factory edge is possible freehand I have found that guided honing using the jig takes it to another level.
I definitely agree.
I have been following Knife Grinder's process for this sort of angle controlled honing. I find it more difficult with the leather honing wheel, but doable. I prefer the SJ stone and a rock hard felt wheel on the Tormek. In addition, I use an angle barely greater than the apex grinding one for harder steels.
Rick
Quote from: cbwx34 on March 18, 2020, 01:40:18 AM
Quote from: Stickan on March 17, 2020, 10:23:26 PM
cb,
The knife you presented will likely have issues since it looks like the angle-setter doesn't fit on the primary grind surface. The design of the blade, with a thick back/spine, with a relatively small blade and with a, what it looks like, a hollow-grind primary bevel before the secondary bevel makes it difficult to use the WM-200.
What is important when sharpening a knife like this is to sharpen at the same edge angle every time once you have created an angle that is suitable for the use of it. And it is easy to repeat that angle with the marker method.
I will say it again, the WM-200 works on most common blades, I agree that it doesn't work on 100% of all the thousands of blades that are out there. There is no quick-fix to compensate for all of the knife blade designs in the world.
But also have in mind that the design of the WM-200 is for most common edge tools that we can sharpen with the system.
Best,
Stig
Fair enough.
I'll give you my answer.... if a person wants to use, or only has, the WM-200. ;)
(Sorry picture is small to meet the file size requirement).
(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4236.0;attach=4298)
If the knife is ground the same on both sides, you can do this...
1. Find a flat surface. Loosen the angle side knob and lay the AngleMaster on the surface as shown. (The wheel side should be tight, the setting doesn't matter). Record the measurement (in this case 19°).
2. Lay the knife on the surface with the area of the knife you're measuring to, flat on the surface.
3. Don't use the flat portion of the blade, if there is one.
4. Now lay the AngleMaster on the bevel (keeping the angle knob loose), and record this measurement (in this case 33°).
5. Subtract the 2 numbers 33-19=14, and divide by 2 = 7°. Add this number to the AngleMaster setting... so if you want the knife sharpened at 20° set the AngleMaster at 27°.
I'd say, you'll be within +- a degree. (I did the math on this one with a "triangle calculator"... the knife is 3.1mm thick and the side is 11.95mm, which came out to 14.9°, or about 7.5°per side).
(Sounds complicated, but the math most can do in their head, and it's really pretty easy).
(Ken will be along to talk about targets, but this is easier IMO).
Obviously, there's other ways... I'm sticking with the WM-200 only here.
:)
You just blew my mind