I recently bought a Japanese Water Wheel (JWW) and use it all the time. I have heard people refer to a JWW as an unnecessary luxury that has very little practical use. I disagree! Any knife that is just dull enough to need grinding but just barely, the JWW will take care of the problem. Although 4000 grit does not remove much metal, it does remove some. Any knife that will not respond to stropping or other edge refining techniques but is other wise pretty sharp can have new burrs created by the JWW while grinding away only tiny amounts of metal. At the same time the JWW produces beautiful mirror finished bevels.
Those of you who have JWWs and have not used them much might consider give them another try. You might be surprised at their practical utility.
I have one for my T4, and find that it really polishes up the edge after the regular stone. Pricey? Yup, but I think it's worth the end result.
Casher,
Good post. I think the criticism of the Japanese wheel (SJ-200 or SJ-250) that you mention is an example of something with a kernel of truth unfortunately over applied. Just like hard Arkansas stones and 8000 grit or finer waterstones, the 4000 grit SJ wheels do cost more than grinding wheels in the more traditional grit range. For a busy farmers market sharpener rushing to sharpen a hundred knives during a Saturday morning, our sharpener might have trouble trying to justify the extra sharpening time and capital outlay required with adding an SJ to the sharpening equipment. This seems a reasonable argument to me.
However, very few of us must deliver that volume of sharpening. The sharpener who has the luxury of fewer time constraints and who takes pride in providing the best edges possible can make good use of the SJ. For a professional sharpener, some time may be needed to educate a prospective customer about the benefits of a more thorough sharpening and deburring process. One way to explain this is to compare it with a car wash. If you want the benefits of an undercarriage wash and protective wax, there is a surcharge.
I do not think the 4000 grit Japanese wheel is an unnecessary luxury. I like your touch up idea. I am primarily a chisel sharpener. With my "knockabout" chisels used for rougher work, I would generally not bother with the 4000 grit wheel. For an expensive tool used for more finish work, I would want the sharpest edge possible, which would include using the 4000 grit wheel.
Ken
PS Well stated, Bill.
Chuck,
Which wheel direction do use with the Japanese stone?
I have vacillated on getting one and more recently I am tempted by the CBN stones offered by Knife Grinders in Australia.
I am able to obtain exceptionally sharp edges with the standard stone and honing wheel by exactly controlling the angle for each process. I worry that these wheels if I did get them would be relegated to use with only my knife collection due to the time required for changing the wheels, water and USB height.
Interesting post, John.
You aroused my curiosity. When you talk about extra time involved, are you thinking about using the SJ wheel with every knife you sharpen? How much time are we talking, and how can we reduce it without compromising edge quality? The obvious starting point is changing the wheel. With organization and an EZYlock, that time can be minimal.
I don't recall Tormek mentioning a need to change water with different wheel grits. My inner voice tells me we should change the water, however, I am not sure if this is really necessary. It would be helpful to know the results of any testing done by Tormek.
Changing USB height should not be a big deal. The diameters of the two wheels won't change during the sharpening session. Using whatever program we wish, we can determine the millimeter difference between the two wheel diameters. We can use the Microadjust like the threaded spindle of a micrometer. With the Microadjust
12mm x 1.5mm thread. each full revolution of theMicroadjust raises or lowers the USB height by 1.5 mm. Each of the six numbers on the Microadjust raises or lowers the USB height by .25mm. For the knives to be sharpened, we would have only two settings, "up and down".
Is the amount of time involved excessive? Perhaps in the fast paced farmers market environment. Probably not in the pedestrian world of collector's knives. How about the middle world of the lower volume professional or amateur sharpener?
I am asking, not pontificating.......
Quote from: john.jcb on January 28, 2020, 04:03:33 PM
Chuck,
Which wheel direction do use with the Japanese stone?
I have vacillated on getting one and more recently I am tempted by the CBN stones offered by Knife Grinders in Australia.
I am able to obtain exceptionally sharp edges with the standard stone and honing wheel by exactly controlling the angle for each process. I worry that these wheels if I did get them would be relegated to use with only my knife collection due to the time required for changing the wheels, water and USB height.
I use the JWW turning into the edge. However, you have to be careful. I have had the JWW grab the knife twice and each time the JWW was damaged. The knife put a cut in the surface of the wheel. The first cut has since worn away and smoothed out. The second is still there. I may start using the JWW edge trailing instead of edge leading to prevent this from happening again.
Also, it is my opinion that changing the water often is a good idea, especially since the wheel's surface should be cleaned with the stone grader every knife or so. Dirty water makes it hard to see the edge while sharpening and the metal fragments in the dirty water may have a negative effect on the sharpening process.
Ken, you may be right about the water changing. I came to that conclusion based on honing with different compounds and contamination. Since they do recommend using the fine side of the grading stone every few minutes it may not be a concern. The only person I personally know that has one uses a separate T-8 for it and does not remove it.
I am in the low volume professional category and my clientele so far is somewhat budget minded and have no idea about edge finish. What they do know is how easily tomatoes and meat are cut after sharpening. If I added a step for the Japanese wheel I would most likely do so at an increased cost. I imagine that I could become adept at the wheel and USB changes over time to reduce the time involved. Perhaps I could sell them on the idea if I had a way of demonstrating the benefit. Using the process defined in Wootz's book I think I am somewhere at or slightly below the 100 Bess range.
I think I might try adding an additional honing wheel with 1µ paste before I get the Japanese stone.
Using the JWW does take too much time to use at a farmer's market. It is very doable for low volume sharpening. Even at a farmer's market, occasionally someone might want a more complete job than usually provided in such a venue.
By the way, John asked which direction I use the wheel. I have been using it edge leading but I may change to edge trailing because the wheel has grabbed the knife being sharpened (twice) and the wheel was slightly damaged. Each knife cut a notch in the surface of the wheel. The first one has since smoothed out but the last one just happened day before yesterday and still has a way to go before is is worn away.
Also, I feel that the water should be changed often for two reasons. First, clean water makes it easier to see what you are doing. Second, the water gets very cloudy and dirty, especially since the wheel must be cleaned with the fine side of the grader stone after every knife or so. This puts a lot of metal filings in the water (about the consistency of fine flour). It may be that this gunk in the water affects that sharpening process.
Frequent cleaning is necessary because the wheel's surface gets imbedded with metal and stops cutting well. I have found that the wheel cleans up faster and easier if it is cleaned every few minutes..
One more point. The grader stone needs to be cleaned of debris frequently. I have a 1x30 belt sander with a scotch bright belt on it and clean the grader stone every time that I use it. This only takes about 10 seconds each time.
Quote from: casher50 on January 28, 2020, 06:29:35 PM
...snip...
... especially since the wheel's surface should be cleaned with the stone grader every knife or so. ...snip...
Quote from: casher50 on January 28, 2020, 11:57:11 PM
...snip... especially since the wheel must be cleaned with the fine side of the grader stone after every knife or so. ...snip...
I don't recall whether Tormek recommends cleaning the Japanese wheel (SJ) with the stone grader. I don't recall reading that.
But... It would not matter to me if they do recommend it. I think it is way too harsh for the SJ. I highly recommend using a rust eraser or a Nagura stone. I've tried two rust erasers and the ones I like and use are the Sabitoru.
https://www.amazon.com/Rust-Eraser-Sabitoru-Medium-2-piece/dp/B00FS0BFJC (https://www.amazon.com/Rust-Eraser-Sabitoru-Medium-2-piece/dp/B00FS0BFJC)
Very gentle on the surface but extremely effective at cleaning. My sense is they do not wear down the surface at all. I do not understand how they clean it so well without that, but that is the way it seems to me.
Rick
Rick,
Thanks for the tip on rust eraser or a Nagura Stone. I will try them ASAP.
Quote from: casher50 on January 29, 2020, 05:15:23 AM
Rick,
Thanks for the tip on rust eraser or a Nagura Stone. I will try them ASAP.
I'm not sure what the Nagura stone is useful for other than cleaning the SJ wheel. I have one, had it before the Sabitoru rust erasers, but do not use it for anything anymore. I think Rich Colvin is where I heard about it and I think he may use it. Rich, is this right?
Rick
Rick,
Here is a Tormek site where they mention using the SP-650 for cleaning the Japanese stone.
https://www.tormek.com/uk/en/accessories/grinding-wheels/sj-250-tormek-japanese-waterstone/
Quote from: john.jcb on January 29, 2020, 02:54:07 PM
Rick,
Here is a Tormek site where they mention using the SP-650 for cleaning the Japanese stone.
https://www.tormek.com/uk/en/accessories/grinding-wheels/sj-250-tormek-japanese-waterstone/
mebbe so. Thanks for sharing that. I figured it was out there. I still would not do it. But that is just me.
Maybe next time I use the SJ, I'll try it. I have one for the SB stone that I've only ever used the coarse side for. Then, as I think of it, using the used side fine of my original stone grader, that I only now use the fine side on the SG stone would be less aggressive and better than a fresh one.
But, alas, I know I'm already predisposed to only use the Sabitoru rust erasers. They are so gentle and clean so well. Such is our biased lives, eh?
My routine, when using the SB, SG, SJ stones, in that progression, I use the coarse grader only on the SB, only the fine side on the SG and only the Sabitoru on the SJ. Works very well and I no longer ever grade the SG coarse.
Rick
Quote from: john.jcb on January 29, 2020, 02:54:07 PM
Rick,
Here is a Tormek site where they mention using the SP-650 for cleaning the Japanese stone.
https://www.tormek.com/uk/en/accessories/grinding-wheels/sj-250-tormek-japanese-waterstone/
I've never used the SP-650 for cleaning the Japanese stone because I'am affraid of contaminating stone / water with coarser particles.
Now I use Nagura 5000 NANIWA NG-5000 (https://brusnekameny.cz/en/sharpening-stones-for-razors/3128-naniwa-nagura-5000-naniwa-ng-5000.html) cleaning stone which works well, but Sabitoru rust erasers looks like very good option. Rick, thank you for your advice.
jvh
(Just my opinion.)
Tormek originally used natural stone grinding wheels. When Tormek switched to the aluminum oxide (SG-250) manmade wheels, they cut faster, but more coarsely. I believe the stone grader was introduced to make the SG cut less coarsely, like the natural stones.
Later, Tormek introduced the SB blackstone and the 4000 grit SJ Japanese wheels. In my opinion, the stone grader fulfills its purpose better with the SG than with either of these newer wheels. The SB is harder and responds better to diamond. The SJ is softer and works better with a rubberized abrasive or nagura stone.
As the buying public does not like to purchase multiple stone graders/dressers, the original stone grader is marketed for all three.
Ken
I use the original stone grader on the SG and SB grindstones, but I am like Rick : I use a Nagura stone on the SJ grindstone.
Kind regards,
Rich
I love mine. It's an extra step that really makes people say "wow."
Quote from: RichColvin on January 30, 2020, 09:16:35 PM
I use the original stone grader on the SG and SB grindstones, but I am like Rick : I use a Nagura stone on the SJ grindstone.
Kind regards,
Rich
Rich,
I remember you were using a diamond bench stone to grade/dress your SB-250. Are you still using it or have you switched back? (curious, not critical)
Ken
Yes sir. I use a DMT D8X 8-Inch Dia-Sharp Continuous Diamond Extra-Coarse.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001DZOKNY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
It works extremely well. I was just using it this week when resharpening a number of drill bits.
Kind regards,
Rich
To RickKrung,
The Sabitoru Rust Erasers are amazing. They are very gentle on the JWW and are VERY fast as well. I have found that cleaning every few minutes, before the metal particles get imbedded in the stone takes only a minute or two at most. I, like you, don't know how they work, but boy do they! Thanks again for the tip.
In the first post Chuck describes using the Japanese stone to bring back an edge that has just started to go dull.
I have been going down another path and empirical evidence suggests there are perhaps other ways to restore the edge. I recently bought a ceramic honing rod that has two grits available. It is rated at 2000 and also 3000.
My steps with my kitchen knives have been as follows.
1. Initial grind on SG-250 at 13° per side wheel graded as fine as possible for final passes.
2. Hone on the Tormek leather wheel LA-220 with Tormek paste at 14.5°
3. Hone on plain leather strop.
At this point the knife is extremely sharp. I do not have a BESS tester so I am not sure what value to use. Knives sharpened like this will cut thermal receipts easily. I keep forgetting to buy cigarette papers as Wootz suggests.
With the knife in normal kitchen service I have been doing the following with great success:
1. Before each use (or more often when I am butchering a large amount of meat) I will steel the knife with a smooth steel.
2. When I notice that this is not restoring the edge I will move to a finely ribbed steel.
3. When cycling between 1-2 no longer produces the desired results I have been going back and re-honing on the leather wheel and stropping.
4. My next step is to use the 2000/3000 grit ceramic rod on the edge, leather wheel then strop when the leather wheel is not producing a fine enough edge.
5. Finally when these steps are not working I will return to the finely graded SG-250 and start fresh.
These steps are not practical for customer's knives. For the most part I am lucky if they even use the steel between visits. My knives, however, are maintaining an edge for a long time and my frequency of trips to the Tormek have been greatly extended.