The Frontal Vertical Base I purchased from Knife Grinders (our own Wootz) arrived yesterday. It is impressive. It is large enough to be solid and compact enough to store easily. The quality of the machining is quite good.
I only had a few minutes with it. I believe it will prove valuable in getting rid of any slop in using the leather honing wheel.
Class A product and service, Wootz!
Ken
you will love it, simply because "it works".
Good job, Wootz!
How do I obtain one of those? I've been to his site but didn't see anything for sale.
Hogdog6,
Here is a link to the FVB page:
http://knifegrinders.com.au/11Shop.htm
The page is listed as "Edge testing equipment and accessories". I find the sales technique refreshingly different: Provide the customer with useful information on using the product. If the customer decides the product suits his needs, he will purchase it.
One thing I found confusing was the drop down cost with shipping menu (at least with an ipad). The down arrow brought up Australia and New Zealand. There is a third listing for International, however, it requires scrolling down to see it. It initially fooled me. I was prepared to pay the price shown in Australian Dollars, and pleased to see the lower number in US Dollars.
For a unique, useful, well machined product made on a small scale, I think the price is very fair.
I approached the design from the opposite direction. I devised a way to have a horizontal base with the edge leading, just like using a dry grinder or a lathe. My idea works very well on paper. It also works in a dry grinding situation using CBN or the two smaller Tormek diamond wheels (primarily designed for the T2). The only difficulty was using it wet....it caused a flood. :(
The vertical honing position seems very logical, especially for Wootz' sharpening technique. He sharpens in a sitting position using the vertical edge leading direction. Sitting would offer a notable increase in comfort for long sessions or working in a van. It would also provide the consistency of the same tool position for honing as for sharpening. Wootz' very impressive BESS sharpness numbers provide "the proof in the pudding" (English idiom meaning the proof).
Wootz has very cleverly coordinated the FVB with his set up applet. The standardized position for the FVB is with the two legs pushed all the way into the horizontal sleeves until the FVB contacts the Tormek frame. No measuring required for that part of the set up and very consistent. I am impressed.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on July 19, 2018, 12:22:00 PM
...snip...
I approached the design from the opposite direction. I devised a way to have a horizontal base with the edge leading, just like using a dry grinder or a lathe. My idea works very well on paper. It also works in a dry grinding situation using CBN or the two smaller Tormek diamond wheels (primarily designed for the T2). The only difficulty was using it wet....it caused a flood. :(
I am curious to find out just what you mean here "horizontal base with edge leading". I am having trouble picturing it in my mind. This suggests to me that you are running the Tormek in the opposite direction, but you post doesn't really suggest that. Please elaborate.
I am also curious how your procedure differs that it causes a flood.
Quote from: Ken S on July 19, 2018, 12:22:00 PM
The vertical honing position seems very logical, especially for Wootz' sharpening technique. He sharpens in a sitting position using the vertical edge leading direction. Sitting would offer a notable increase in comfort for long sessions or working in a van. It would also provide the consistency of the same tool position for honing as for sharpening. Wootz' very impressive BESS sharpness numbers provide "the proof in the pudding" (English idiom meaning the proof).
...snip...
Ken
I sharpen on my T8 using the vertical USB and edge leading, from a sitting position. I have mild neuropathy in my legs and so cannot stand for long periods without lasting pain. I do a lot of things sitting when I can. This is part of the reason I don't want to do machining things for hire.
The sitting position I use is from the opposite side of the T8, so it is sort of in that "frontal" position. I do have to reach over the T8 and at first, I had some trouble keeping the jig firmly on the USB, but now that I have developed the muscle memory, it isn't a problem anymore.
I built a frontal vertical base earlier when it was discussed on the forum. I look forward to using it and learning using the knife jigs with edge trailing. I tried it a little with one knife and was impressed with the size of the burr. Makes me wonder if by using the vertical position, more metal is removed than necessary getting to where the burr is detectable.
Rick
Rick,
I purchased an extended support bar from forum member, Robin Bailey, of the UK. I have found it a useful tool. The bar is longer than the standard Tormek US-105, and the two legs are longer. I have not sharpened knives longer that eight inches (200mm), I can't comment on the longer length. I bought it to sharpen my Chinese cleaver. It was a wedding present from my best friend; keeping it well sharpened is important to me. The only Tormek method is freehand. Robin's extended support sharpens my cleaver.
The legs are long enough to insert it in the horizontal sleeves from the other dide of the Tormek. I wanted to duplicate the dry grinder position. It does this well, except that the lower position forces the water out of the trough. Although it does work with CBN and the smaller Tormek T2 diamond wheels used dry, I consider this as one of my several idea which doesn't work. I finally realized thatTormek has not lengthed the legs to keep them from positioning the support bar cutting into the edge with the leather honing wheel, a wise precaution. Do not try this at home!!!
Rick and I are the same vintage. I think I will probably be be doing more sharpening while sitting in the near future.
Ken
Maybe I'am late... Sorry.
Does anybody have news from the VFB supplier. It seems most interesting to me.
Rgds.
Quote from: Erivan on June 01, 2019, 05:30:39 PM
Maybe I'am late... Sorry.
Does anybody have news from the VFB supplier. It seems most interesting to me.
Rgds.
It is available from Knife Grinders as listed at the top of this thread.
I obtained one a short time ago and my sharpness and consistently took a jump ahead.
I believe on the knife grinders website you can purchase a stripped down version of the FVB and attach your own separately purchased XB100. I guess they are waiting on parts from tormek but the stripped down version is available upon request. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Well, thanks to all for your info and comments.
I'm ::) (un)fortunately living in the EU, and the total cost of the jig/postage/tariff/bank transfer charge and so on made me think twice.
Not happy at all with that, but as a newbie, I couldn't really appreciate how this device would make my sharpening experience with respect to the total price tag.
Your comments are most welcome.
Quote from: Erivan on June 22, 2019, 03:00:53 AM
Well, thanks to all for your info and comments.
I'm ::) (un)fortunately living in the EU, and the total cost of the jig/postage/tariff/bank transfer charge and so on made me think twice.
Not happy at all with that, but as a newbie, I couldn't really appreciate how this device would make my sharpening experience with respect to the total price tag.
Your comments are most welcome.
A couple of hundreds use our FVB with their Tormeks, all models, around the world.
Yet we encourage everyone to make the Frontal Vertical Base themselves, we can program Windows and MacBook/MacAir software for your home-made FVB, how to order the applet is on our website.
Our current FVB base is 25 mm thick, 50 x 107 mm; the legs are 190-200 mm.
Our historically first prototype was of wood; for Tormek T-7 we used to make it of the BGM-100 kit - for details see the thread
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2583 (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2583)
More examples of home-made FVB: http://knifegrinders.com.au/FVB_self-made.htm (http://knifegrinders.com.au/FVB_self-made.htm)
Quote from: Erivan on June 22, 2019, 03:00:53 AM
Well, thanks to all for your info and comments.
I'm ::) (un)fortunately living in the EU, and the total cost of the jig/postage/tariff/bank transfer charge and so on made me think twice.
Not happy at all with that, but as a newbie, I couldn't really appreciate how this device would make my sharpening experience with respect to the total price tag.
Your comments are most welcome.
Hi Erivan.
I´m going to tell you my own experience.
I use Tormek T8 about six months ago. At first I used it without FVB. Everything has to be said; with very good results.
But I´m very perfectionist, and I want to raise my level of sharpening.
After weeks and week of research, I found Woottz´s research. I understood that the "secret" of a good sharpening was in the removal of burrs (of course, in the technique of sharpening).
I bought a FVB from Wootz through its website. I also read his book and applied his deburring techniques.
Today, my sharpenings are better using the FVB. I have three leather wheels an always applied his Differential deburr technic.
I just sharpening my Yanagiba knife of Kai Shun and after sharpening I cut one smoking paper of Rizzla + without problems. This is a good sharpening for a 16 DPS sharpening.
I think that the price is absolutely lower than the results.
I hope I have helped
Quote from: Erivan on June 22, 2019, 03:00:53 AM
Well, thanks to all for your info and comments.
I'm ::) (un)fortunately living in the EU, and the total cost of the jig/postage/tariff/bank transfer charge and so on made me think twice.
Not happy at all with that, but as a newbie, I couldn't really appreciate how this device would make my sharpening experience with respect to the total price tag.
Your comments are most welcome.
Hi Erivan,
I purchased the FVB from Wootz a few months back and have to say its made the whole process so much easier . The angle setting software alone would have been worth the money as its so easy and accurate to use but add in the ability to totally remove the burr and I've gone from a nice sharp knife to a knife I can shave with that retains its sharpness . No squashing tomatoes anymore
I am an ordinary guy living in the UK with aspirations to maybe make a small business venture out of sharpening some day . In my opinion its worth every penny :)
Add me to the list of satisfied VFB purchasers. I may look at the cost somewhat differently. Wootz has generously shared details for those interested in building their own VFB. I see the cost of the VFB as a fair price for a well designed and manufactured product. Hopefully the price includes a reasonable business profit. If this happens to support the excellent research Wootz is doing, I am pleased to contribute.
Ken
Here here. Ditto from me Ken.
It's an absolute must and I'm always happy to support Wootz.
Sub 50's on the Bess would never have been possible for me without these aids and Wootz generosity in sharing his knowledge
I also agree. The value in the FVB is also in the knowledge that Wootz shares for free. I would still be sharpening everything by hand in the "Stone Age" if it wasn't for the info he shares. A lot of people like to keep "trade secrets" but Wootz gave us the keys to successful sharpening. To me the price is worth the results. I would suggest save a little and get it when you can. That's what I'm doing. I purchased software and paper wheel support from Wootz and now saving up for the fvb.
Antz
Hello there,
Thanks for all the comments.
It was great to read from you all.
As already mentioned, living in the EU doesn't make any good to importing goods from AU. Now let's step a bit forward.
Thanks to all the good advice I got from our mate at (no need to mention any name I guess :) ) http://knifegrinders.com.au I went to a local store (very local - 300 meters away from where I was born) and asked if they could help.
The shop owner really seems to be a sympathetic guy and might agree to try and build an "EU made" VFB specially for myself. I'm waiting for his answer...
Cheers !
Hi Josu,
Thanks a lot for your comment, which adds to my (little) knowledge.
Would you please elaborate a bit more about your 3 leather wheels?
What are they for ? different size ? different honing compound ?
Thanks in advance for your answer.
Rgds
Quote from: Josu V on June 22, 2019, 05:16:41 PM
Quote from: Erivan on June 22, 2019, 03:00:53 AM
Well, thanks to all for your info and comments.
I'm ::) (un)fortunately living in the EU, and the total cost of the jig/postage/tariff/bank transfer charge and so on made me think twice.
Not happy at all with that, but as a newbie, I couldn't really appreciate how this device would make my sharpening experience with respect to the total price tag.
Your comments are most welcome.
Hi Erivan.
I´m going to tell you my own experience.
I use Tormek T8 about six months ago. At first I used it without FVB. Everything has to be said; with very good results.
But I´m very perfectionist, and I want to raise my level of sharpening.
After weeks and week of research, I found Woottz´s research. I understood that the "secret" of a good sharpening was in the removal of burrs (of course, in the technique of sharpening).
I bought a FVB from Wootz through its website. I also read his book and applied his deburring techniques.
Today, my sharpenings are better using the FVB. I have three leather wheels an always applied his Differential deburr technic.
I just sharpening my Yanagiba knife of Kai Shun and after sharpening I cut one smoking paper of Rizzla + without problems. This is a good sharpening for a 16 DPS sharpening.
I think that the price is absolutely lower than the results.
I hope I have helped
Quote from: Erivan on June 27, 2019, 11:08:41 PM
Hi Josu,
Thanks a lot for your comment, which adds to my (little) knowledge.
Would you please elaborate a bit more about your 3 leather wheels?
What are they for ? different size ? different honing compound ?
Thanks in advance for your answer.
Rgds
Of course.
Following Wootz's explains, and bought two more leather wheels, and actually have three.
One with Tormek Honing Compound PA-70.
Other One with Diamond Compound 1 Micron
And other with one layer of Chromium Oxide, and a second layer with Diamond Compound 0.25 Micron.
Both of them are Tormek LA-220 Leather Honing Wheel.
First I proceed to sharpening the knife with one of the grinding wheels that I have. Depending on the quality and / or the kind of steel, I use from SG-250 to the Tormek Diamond wheels DF-250 and DE-250.
Then I use the first leather Wheel with Tormek honing compound in the same angle that the sharpening. I use the FVB and the APP for this.
Then, I use the second leather wheel with 1 Micron diamond compound and set the angle between 0.1 to 2 degrees more, depending on the kind of steel.
Two slow and soft passes.
Then, I use the last honing wheel one more pass in the same angle as the second.
And finally, I set the initial angle again and one more pass very slowly and very softly.
Is important to clean the knife between different leather wheels in order to prevent cross contamination between different honing compounds.
I´m note sure if this procedure is exactly the best but the results are fantastics.
Probably, Mr. Wootz will be able to correct something to me, but that is the procedure that I have understood after reading a lot of what he has written and after reading his book.
Please note that the English language has some difficulties for me and I may not have understood everything correctly.
Regards
Quote from: Josu V on June 30, 2019, 10:27:15 AM
Following Wootz's explains, and bought two more leather wheels, and actually have three. Both
One with Tormek Honing Compound PA-70.
Other One with Diamond Compound 1 Micron
And other with one layer of Chromium Oxide, and a second layer with Diamond Compound 0.25 Micron.
Both of them are Tormek LA-220 Leather Honing Wheel.
First I proceed to sharpening the knife with one of the grinding wheels that I have. Depending on the quality and / or the kind of steel, I use from SG-250 to the Tormek Diamond wheels DF-250 and DE-250.
Then I use the first leather Wheel with Tormek honing compound in the same angle that the sharpening. I use the FVB and the APP for this.
Then, I use the second leather wheel with 0.1 Micron diamond compound and set the angle between 0.1 to 2 degrees more, depending on the kind of steel.
Two small and soft passes.
Then, I use the last honing wheel one more pass in the same angle as the second.
And finally, I set the initial angle again and one more pass very slowly and very softly.
Is important to clean the knife between different leather wheels in order to prevent cross contamination between different honing compounds.
I´m note sure if this procedure is exactly the best but the results are fantastics.
Probably, Mr. Wootz will be able to correct something to me, but that is the procedure that I have understood after reading a lot of what he has written and after reading his book.
Please note that the English language is has some difficulties for me and I may not have understood everything correctly.
Regards
Perfect. Thank you for sharing, Josu
Hello Josu, a very clear and useful description of working with three leather wheels as suggested by our genius wootz.
Just to avoid a confusion: In the list of the three compound used you correctly list diamond compound 1 micron. Later in the text you write 0.1 micron for the compound for the second leather wheel.
I also like this sharpening method with the three leather wheels!
Regards
Drilon
Quote from: Drilon on June 30, 2019, 06:52:13 PM
Hello Josu, a very clear and useful description of working with three leather wheels as suggested by our genius wootz.
Just to avoid a confusion: In the list of the three compound used you correctly list diamond compound 1 micron. Later in the text you write 0.1 micron for the compound for the second leather wheel.
I also like this sharpening method with the three leather wheels!
Regards
Drilon
Sorry. It has been a mistake.
Corrected! Thanks for the advice :)
Hello fellow tormeker
Im wondering on how can I tell if I have deburred the bevel ?
I don't have edgeonup. So can't get help From it.
Is it just to test one angle first and if not working then try an even greater angle?
Is there any "easier" way to know at what angle to deburr it other then trial and error?
Best regards
Quote from: Nik3 on July 04, 2019, 11:20:38 PM
Hello fellow tormeker
Im wondering on how can I tell if I have deburred the bevel ?
I don't have edgeonup. So can't get help From it.
Is it just to test one angle first and if not working then try an even greater angle?
Is there any "easier" way to know at what angle to deburr it other then trial and error?
Best regards
While it is not easy to detect wire edge in hard alloy high-end knives without special equipment, it is relatively simple in mainstream knives.
Please see this thread:
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3954 (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3954)
Thank you wootz, great reading like normally.
So I should start with a low deburring angle (0.5°?) And then test with the flourocarbon.
What jumps do you recommend to take between each increase?
And if it goes to high and round the Apex then it will just not cut as easily anymore?
We've done all that hard work to make it simple for you.
The Differential Honing is minimum 2-step, but better 3-step.
First hone away the bulk of the burr at the edge angle so that on the apex you have a feather burr or wire edge.
The edge set on #1000 is deburred with 3-6 micron honing compound like Tormek honing paste. But the edge apexed on a coarser wheel requires a coarser honing compound of 6-10 micron, like Autosol or Green Rouge etc.
Then de-root the burr at a higher angle with 1-micron diamonds; the majority of knife steels are done this way:
- Stainless steel mainstream knives HRC <= 55 at + 2 degree higher;
- Stainless steel quality knives HRC 56-58 at + 1.6 degree higher;
- Premium kitchen knives at + 0.4 to 0.8 degree higher
- Tool and wear-resitant steels at + 0.4 degree higher;
- Steels listed in our book as prone to "negative burr" - at the edge angle.
Finishing cleanup:
Quality knife steels we do with 0.5/0.25-micron diamonds and chromium oxide;
Lower-end steels on a plain hanging leather strop w/o any honing compound.
Hello fellow sharpeners,
First I want to introduce myself as I am new to the forum. I'm Gary and USA based, residing in the Dallas TX area. I have lurked and read for some time now being ever appreciative of the knowledge I've gained here. This is a great site, and I'm thankful to be a member.
I have purchased the FVB from the folks at Knife Grinders (fine piece of high-quality equipment!) and set it up carefully following the accompanying instructions. I've triple checked everything and am confident it is set up properly. I have also downloaded the applet for calculating the settings.
The issue I want to ask about is the fact that there is a consistent 4 degrees difference in the angle as set using the FVB applet and the angle as read from the Tormek Angle Master. Said another way, I set up using the applet [T-8, 140 mm to blade edge, 18 degree angle, 97.64 mm support height], but then when I check the blade angle with the Angle Master it says 22 degrees.
I'm not sure if this is normal accuracy or not. I suspect the Angle Master is probably +/- one degree at best, not sure what accuracy is on the FVB. What should I do if I want to sharpen at 18 degrees, trust the FVB or split the difference? I don't have a laser protractor for verification.
Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks for having me to this forum!
Gary
Welcome to the Forum Gary,
If you are 100% certain you have set up the FVB correctly and input the correct information into the applet (blade protrusion, grinding wheel diameter), then I would trust the applet. Watching Wootz YouTube videos he checks his bevels with a laser protractor and I've never seen him be off by even 1 degree. I also use the applets and although I don't have a laser protractor I believe it to be spot on.
Another thing with the angle master is it's not easy to set an exact wheel diameter setting when adjusting for wheel ware. The applet is more precise.
Antz
-
Quote from: Antz on July 06, 2019, 12:30:04 AM
Welcome to the Forum Gary,
If you are 100% certain you have set up the FVB correctly and input the correct information into the applet (blade protrusion, grinding wheel diameter), then I would trust the applet. Watching Wootz YouTube videos he checks his bevels with a laser protractor and I've never seen him be off by even 1 degree. I also use the applets and although I don't have a laser protractor I believe it to be spot on.
Another thing with the angle master is it's not easy to set an exact wheel diameter setting when adjusting for wheel ware. The applet is more precise.
Antz
Thanks! That was pretty much my thinking. I'm certain things are set up correctly. All measurements were made with a digital caliper, and we know the trig don't lie. I had not thought about Wootz checking with the laser protractor as we have seen him do...good point.
Double check your wheel diameter setting in the applet. The grinding wheel is not exactly 250 mm but this should not result in the variation you are seeing.
Quote from: john.jcb on July 06, 2019, 05:25:52 PM
Double check your wheel diameter setting in the applet. The grinding wheel is not exactly 250 mm but this should not result in the variation you are seeing.
Thanks John, I actually measured the wheel diameter with a digital caliper. It was spot on at 250 mm.
For grinding into the wheel, as normally people do on Tormek, you need our "Grinding Angle Setter" software for Tormek. Newstarters may confuse these two applets and mistakenly go for the FVB applet.
Function is different - the "Grinding Angle Setter" is for grinding into the wheel in the normal Tormek position, while the "Frontal Vertical Base" is for grinding edge-trailing and honing on the leather wheel in front of the Tormek. The "Frontal Vertical Base" is a free application coming with the Frontal Vertical Base attachment, while the "Grinding Angle Setter" is a paid software for Tormek.
Quote from: wootz on July 07, 2019, 01:02:00 AM
For grinding into the wheel, as normally people do on Tormek, you need our "Grinding Angle Setter" software for Tormek. Newstarters may confuse these two applets and mistakenly go for the FVB applet.
Function is different - the "Grinding Angle Setter" is for grinding into the wheel in the normal Tormek position, while the "Frontal Vertical Base" is for grinding edge-trailing and honing on the leather wheel in front of the Tormek. The "Frontal Vertical Base" is a free application coming with the Frontal Vertical Base attachment, while the "Grinding Angle Setter" is a paid software for Tormek.
Yes sir...I believe I'm using the correct software. You sent it to me with the FVB. The file name as extracted is "FVB_Edge_Angle_Setter.application", and the name at the top of the applet for data entry says
Frontal Vertical Base for Tormek. I also downloaded the software from the App Store to my i-phone. That applet is titled "KG FVB Angle Setter (Frontal Vertical Base applet)".
I've cross checked both applets, i.e., the one sent me with the FVB purchase and the one from the App Store. They give me the same results, and I am grinding edge-trailing from the front of the Tormek (not into the wheel in the normal Tormek position).
I believe all is good. If not, please tell me so.
To corroborate the accuracy of the app ...
I have a Laser Protractor from Catra. I use it to check some knives and runs perfectly. Sometimes I can appreciate between 0.3 to 0.5 degrees of difference but I think that the problem is the accuracy of positioning of the Universal Support (in low-end knives in low-end knives I do not give importance to half a degree .)
Most of the time I used to check original angle in order to maintain it, and I've never seen anything weird.
Is important to check the diameter of the grinding wheel; I think that this can would be a cause of errors.
Regards
Hi to all community members,
I am currently designing and working on my own home-made FVB, based on all the wise advice I got (so far) from the community.
(Sorry, Wootz, would have loved to buy from you, but all in all, considering i'm living in the EU, the bottom line figure was...well...)
Here is a picture of my "raw material" : 1 Tormek XB100, some hardwood, and 2 threaded rods with the nuts that go with them. (sorry the rods are already soldered to the nuts, I forgot to take a picture before they were).
I'm planning to drill 12mm holes in one slice of the hardwood, then place the rods inside and carve some place for the bolts in another slice of hardwood, both pieces of hardwood being exactly the size of XB100.
Then glue/bolt both pieces and attach XB100.
I will update you when progressing.
Cheers.
I purchased a FVB from Wootz. The price is a combination of good design, quality machining, and shipping. (In my case, from Australia to the US.) The price is substantial, but so is the product. The FVB will give you trooper service as long as your Tormek. The price also reflects low volume. The VFB is not mass produced.
When considering the price, be sure to convert it into your local currency. A strong US dollar lessened the blow for me.
Wootz has been very generous in sharing information about making your own VFB. His research has benefitted the whole sharpening community, from those who strive for the perfect edge to those who just want their farmers market sharpening to be a cut above. (Nothing negative implied.)
Thanks, Wootz.
Ken
I couldn't agree more, Ken.
Wootz seems to me a as a very generous person, willing to share his knowledge for everyone to enjoy and improve.
I am really thankful, as the design I'm working on is (mainly) inspired by what he did.
Thanks Wootz !
Quote from: Ken S on July 31, 2019, 01:31:18 PM
I purchased a FVB from Wootz. The price is a combination of good design, quality machining, and shipping. (In my case, from Australia to the US.) The price is substantial, but so is the product. The FVB will give you trooper service as long as your Tormek. The price also reflects low volume. The VFB is not mass produced.
When considering the price, be sure to convert it into your local currency. A strong US dollar lessened the blow for me.
Wootz has been very generous in sharing information about making your own VFB. His research has benefitted the whole sharpening community, from those who strive for the perfect edge to those who just want their farmers market sharpening to be a cut above. (Nothing negative implied.)
Thanks, Wootz.
Ken
I don't have much time these days to work on this project (have to go to work to earn our food ;) )
Still, what I did this evening was to grind (grit 80) the soldered nuts that became heads of the "bolts"
To be followed...
Quote from: Erivan on July 30, 2019, 10:58:40 PM
Hi to all community members,
I am currently designing and working on my own home-made FVB, based on all the wise advice I got (so far) from the community.
(Sorry, Wootz, would have loved to buy from you, but all in all, considering i'm living in the EU, the bottom line figure was...well...)
Here is a picture of my "raw material" : 1 Tormek XB100, some hardwood, and 2 threaded rods with the nuts that go with them. (sorry the rods are already soldered to the nuts, I forgot to take a picture before they were).
I'm planning to drill 12mm holes in one slice of the hardwood, then place the rods inside and carve some place for the bolts in another slice of hardwood, both pieces of hardwood being exactly the size of XB100.
Then glue/bolt both pieces and attach XB100.
I will update you when progressing.
Cheers.
I finally took some time to complete the job.
Here are some pictures of how I did build my own version of the FVB.
Thanks to all of you for bringing in the ideas and pictures that inspired me !
And I forgot to mention : I already tested it and it works just fine !
The sharpness I could reach using it is much better than what I could do free hand, no doubt about it.
Thanks again to all of you for this wonderful idea.
Does the Universal Support have the need to go all the way down when the FVB is in the inserted position?
My home made FVB is so shallow the Universal Support hits the Tormek housing about half way down.
It may partially depend on how it is built. But, I think what you describe occurs with mine also. The "legs" of the USB that extend below the FVB run into the body of the T8 case. Because all of the usage I make of it, the USB is low enough that those legs will always hit the case, so that is the closest the USB can get to the grindstone/honing wheel. That has never been a problem, as when the USB is in that close, it is closer than I've needed for anything. Typically, with knives, my USB is well away or if in close like that, it is higher to make the projection of the jig work.
(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3685.0;attach=3819)
That said, I had thought of making the bar that mounts the 12mm legs more narrow, but even that would not change that the legs of the USB sticking down would still hit the case, so it would not help to get the USB any closer. Actually, on looking at my photo, it appears the rectangular tubing that I used hits the case before or about the same time at the USB legs, so no amount of narrowing of it would do not good.
Rick
Thank you for your answer, Rick.
You're correct, it's the same thing that happends to yours, the legs runs into the body of the Tormek. I guess if it ever becomes a problem I could allways mount a stop collar or a nut to give the FVB a stopping point before the legs hit the body.
Quote from: PaGorg on October 13, 2019, 11:57:10 PM
...snip...
My home made FVB is so shallow the Universal Support hits the Tormek housing about half way down.
Home made? I am interested in what you did. Your photo shows what looks to me like a cast part as your FVB mount. It also appears to be a smaller piece that mounts one each end of the USB clamp.
(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3685.0;attach=3829)
Could you post some other views of your FVB mount - the part that attached to the USB clamp and had the 12mm rods extending out, please?
Rick
Rick beat me to the punch : I wondered the same thing.
I couldn't find square tubing or aluminium block in the right size, so I decided to try clamping the legs directly to the XB-100.
I found these "12mm linear rail shaft support" on AliExpress:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32336816419.html
Drilled and tapped four M5 holes in the XB-100 and screwed the clamps in place.
Used a "12x300 linear shaft" in one of the clamps and a threaded bar from a local store in the other:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32336820800.html
Time will tell if it's solid enough :)
PaGorg, that is really a clever and cost effective solution. Thanks for sharing.
My guess is it will be strong enough but if you find it is not you have the option of mounting the SHF12 Flange Mounts to a 107mmx50mm backing plate and then mount the XB-100 to that plate using the existing 4 holes (or perhaps that's going over the top :)).
PaGorg, simple, clever and inexpensive solution. Thanks for sharing. I am almost sure it will work fine. :)
For grinding angle setup you can use one of several free spreadsheets available on this forum. My excel spreadsheet entitled "KENJIG_wheel_support_distance_1" enables to calculate the wheel-support distance for given wheel radius, projection length and bevel angle. https://www.dropbox.com/s/ypbtaxgycgoyls0/KENJIG_wheel_support_distance_1.xlsb?dl=1
It was discussed several times here, e.g.:
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3320.msg19878#msg19878
Jan
Thanks, Jan. I'll have a look your spreadsheet.
Right now I'm trying out the "TormekCalc" spreadsheet by 'jvh', and it seems to work great.
TormekCalc - Excel spreadsheet is quite sophisticated script. I recommend it!
I have checked the numerical accuracy of TormekCalc by calculating the height of the USB above Tormek housing and also the distance between the USB and the wheel surface. I can confirm that TormekCalc results are identical with my results with an accuracy of 0.001 mm.
Jan
I Received my FVB Yesterday after waiting in pure anticipation for what seemed like a month but was actually a week. The postal system sent it back and forth and after tracking it through numerous phone calls I drove 60kilometers to go and collect it in a whole different town......
But never the less I got it, and after using some very good advice from Wootz via mails I have at last with the help of Tormek Diamond wheels and the FVB achieved the next level in sharpness compared to what I was used to. Still have a long way to go to get extra felt wheels and various compound but from what I have I have at least achieved hair splitting sharpness!!!
Thank you so much Wootz for all the effort in getting the FVB to me as well as the advice. So much appreciated!
Is it still safe to buy anything from Knife Grinders website. I would like to get the Windows software for the FVB?
Quote from: ottertok on March 13, 2022, 02:02:02 PM
Is it still safe to buy anything from Knife Grinders website. I would like to get the Windows software for the FVB?
Every post I've read recently indicates the FVB from Knifegrinders is no longer available. And the software only works with their FVB. (So, I would say no to both).
The other question would also be. Every now and then after a phone update or even software update i had to get a pin code from wootz. Would the software still be supported or what is the plans going forward? I would want to see spending the amount of money on software etc only to be told it will be discontinued?
Knife Grinders was essentially a one man operation. Unfortunately, Vadim, the one man, passed away. I do not see anyone in his family or business capable of continuing to update his software. As much as I liked and respected Vadim, I would look elsewhere for software and products.
Ken
Yes I'm aware of that. I already have the software for the FVB and the angle setter. Just worries that I might pick up problems if it asks for a code again
I would use the software, while everything is current, and write the combinations on 3x5 index cards. Sharpening the same or similar knives where the Projection, Distance, and wheel diameter remain constant, the set up will remain the same over time whether or not your software works or not. A few index cards should cover the waterfront for you.
This is math, not magic. Much of it goes back to ancient Greece.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on March 13, 2022, 04:13:57 PM
Knife Grinders was essentially a one man operation. Unfortunately, Vadim, the one man, passed away. I do not see anyone in his family or business capable of continuing to update his software. As much as I liked and respected Vadim, I would look elsewhere for software and products.
Ken
I, and I'm guessing many others, hope that's not going to be true.He had a very established sharpening business that sharpened hundreds of knives per day for abbatoirs and slaughterhouses. Given that volume, he undoubtedly had employees. His business used the same products. So it is likely that KG products will be available again in the future.
The KG FVB was made by a contractor using CNC milling, so it could easily be made again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuIiiJeaDns.
As for the software, he had contractors who wrote it; here's a pic of one of the software developers: https://www.youtube.com/post/UgkxA-NB3X_YgK4bidiQif6csDxYG-tAdUac
What I'm really hoping for is Tormek to produce and support a FVB. It's a simple device, and practically everyone has a smartphone or computer. I think the selling feature for Tormek is NOT sharper edges, but SAFETY - using a FVB lessens the chance of a knife being honed being "pulled off" the honing wheel. Come on Tormek, let's enter the 21st century!
BeSharp,
Like you, I would be very pleased to see some of Vadim's Australian associates carry on the work of Knife Grinders.
I don't think anyone can deny the role Vadim played in advancing knife sharpening. Sadly, his passing cut short that work.
I would be very surprised if Tormek decided to manufacture and sell FVBs. Tormek has consistently preferred using the leather honing wheel handheld. This preference goes back at least as far as Jeff Farris' videos and still continues in the latest online honing class. I am not saying that either Tormek or Vadim is right or wrong, only that they represent two different schools of thought.
I respect the opinion of a sharpener skilled in both methods. I have less respect for sharpeners who have not bothered to master handheld honing.
Ken
QuoteI respect the opinion of a sharpener skilled in both methods. I have less respect for sharpeners who have not bothered to master handheld honing.
Sir,
With all due respect, I find this kind of statement condescending to say the least. To continue along these lines, you'll probably find someone else who will not respect your own opinion because you haven't bothered to [insert required skill here] and are cutting corners in their view. You pick said skill : grind handheld with the hands on the USB, grind handheld without the USB, use slow-cutting natural-stones instead of synthetic ones, sharpen handheld on a whetstone, on a belt sander, hone without a chemical compound, heat-treat a blade, make your own knife, shape a blade, temper/forge a blade, make your own steel... We're probably all cutting someone else's corners at some point.
The Tormek way is about controlling the angle, the FVB helps do that for honing as well as grinding edge-trailing without fussing with screws. Wootz has demonstrated on numerous occasions that the honing angle had a noticeable effect on the burr removal process. My very short experience shows that there is a significant difference in sharpness when changing the honing angle by 2 degrees, and I will personally not have a sub-degree accuracy when honing hand-held.
I can see numerous reasons why Tormek wouldn't want to sell a FVB, among which:
- patent issues, such as not being able to patent it because the FVB idea predates theirs
- difficulty to recognize that their previously advertised method could be questionable (AngleMaster with tapered knives, anyone ?)
- angle setting complexity without using a software or tables, and measuring to a reference point
- profitability issue
Still, I wouldn't be surprised if the T-9 had an additional set of well-placed USB holes. Or, who knows, a 8-inch stropping wheel and a way to reverse the direction of the rotation.
That being said, I fail to see what is not to be respected in using a suitable tool and practicing with it. Especially when you are not able to dedicate time to acquire the aforementioned master-level skills, yet still find controlled angle sharpening a satisfactory-way to meet your sharpening needs.
Cheers,
Nick.
Nick,
Your points are well made; I was out of line. I would like to amend my statement to read that while I respect someone who has mastered both methods, I also respect someone who chooses to sidestep one method for well articulated reasons. I certainly respect the outstanding work of Vadim.
My own knife sharpening is low volume and rather humble. I can see where many sharpeners might have more demanding requirements with more high tech knives. Different strokes for different folks.
Ken
Quote from: tgbto on March 16, 2022, 04:53:30 PM
Still, I wouldn't be surprised if the T-9 had an additional set of well-placed USB holes.
The old Tormek PR-250 had an additional sleeve for universal support close to the honing wheel, I suppose this was to support guided honing.
Here is link to a PR-250 that recently was up for sale in Norway: https://www.finn.no/bap/forsale/ad.html?finnkode=245753135
I have a SuperGrind 4000 that does not have the extra sleeve near the honing wheel, I have added a XB-100 Horizontal base so I can use a FVB.
Interesting thoughts.
Ken