Any tips for using the Japanese Waterstone? Being relatively new, thought I'd start a thread and see what some of you had.
Here's mine to start. A tip I got from hand waterstones... a fine "rust eraser" like the one in the attached picture, does a decent job of removing the 'black' from the stone, without altering the stone's finish, and minimal (if any) stone wear.
Thanks for starting an interesting topic. Several years ago, a similar topic surfaced. Someone recommended a nagura stone, normally used to create a slurry with fine waterstones (4000 grit and finer). I purchased one; they are inexpensive.
I have actually had good luck using the TT-50 truing tool. Take very light cuts and advance slowly.
I will get my nagura stone and SJ out soon and report.
Again, good topic, CB.
Ken
Ken let me use his SJ stone before I bought one. I used his Nagura stone & it worked greatly.
I've not gotten around to buying a Nagura stone for my SJ stone, but I find that the stone grader works well.
Rich
The rust eraser tip was from a guy who previously used a Nagura stone (so have I on regular waterstones). A Nagura can alter the finish (which can be good or bad). Oh yeah, the rust eraser is much cheaper. The stone grader can alter the finish (and wear the stone).
The cleaning can be done as needed... even during a sharpening session.
I wouldn't use the TT-50 just to clean up a stone... bit overkill IMO, and can't easily be done during sharpening.
Give it a try! (You guys are a tough crowd....). :)
Hey....... :) we aren't such a tough crowd. I just ordered your rust eraser. I'm always open to new Tormek related ideas.
Thanks for the tip.
Ken
Tip # 2: Make a final, very light pass on either side of a knife, at a 2-3 deg. higher angle.... not enough to create a microbevel... it's just enough that it really cleans up the edge, and really puts a fine very sharp edge on. The fine grade of the SJ wheel really excels at this. 8)
Anyone ever try the rust eraser?
CB,
I think making the last pass a very light one is a universally good tip. With any stone coarser than the 4000 grit SJ, I would suggest keeping the bevel the same. You may have a good idea with the SJ. I will try it and the rust eraser during my next session using the SJ. (The rust eraser has been patientlywaiting in my top drawer.)
Keep thinking!
Ken
Actually, in this thread (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3384.msg20799#msg20799), wootz recommends lowering the angle slightly to finish the edge.
So, Tip #2.5... try both ways, and see what works best for you. ;)
CB, Wootz recommends to "lower the US by 1 digit". One digit of the micro adjust is equal to lowering the US by 0.25 mm (0.01"). This will decrease of the edge angle (for typical setting of T7 or T8) by some 0.15° to 0.2° only.
Lowering the US will not create a microbevel, but on the contrary protect the very edge apex by preventing its contact with the SJ stone. ;)
Jan
Quote from: Jan on October 29, 2017, 10:26:26 PM
CB, Wootz recommends to "lower the US by 1 digit". One digit of the micro adjust is equal to lowering the US by 0.25 mm (0.01"). This will decrease of the edge angle (for typical setting of T7 or T8) by some 0.15° to 0.2° only.
Lowering the US will not create a microbevel, but on the contrary protect the very edge apex by preventing its contact with the SJ stone. ;)
Jan
Yup... I saw his other post... thought it was worth mentioning. I think wootz and I have a different approach to sharpening. It's why I suggest trying both, and see what works.
(Or, maybe lowering an angle in Australia = raising it in the U.S.). ;)
Thanks for the info on the angle change with the micro-adjust. Good info.
There is nothing wrong with micro-beveling, and many Tormek users apply it, even though Tormek itself says it is not necessary on their grinders.
Just I never could make it work for me with the SJ.
Maybe really because "... lowering an angle in Australia = raising it in the U.S."
I picked up an SJ stone and a second grading stone today at Woodcrafters in Portland, OR, USA. Being a relative novice, and having just bought an SB stone, primarily for drill sharpening, I was going to wait on the SJ. But I was killing time while my daughter and granddaughter were at a science and industry museum this morning and as I perused the Tormek rack, there it was, saying "take me home".
So, now I'm paying more attention the the SJ threads and comments. Where can I get the rust eraser and Nagura stone?
Rick
Hi Rick - you don't need either, believe me.
Many had advocated diamond plates for conditioning the wheels after truing and cleaning in between, but it took me time to recognize all the benefits of it.
Don't be like me, and take this shortcut.
#400 diamond plate for the SG or SB wheel graded to #800-1000;
#1000 diamond plate for the #4000 SJ wheel.
A #1000 diamond plate in the Tormek Square Edge jig is the best solution for declogging SJ.
As the diamond plate I use the cheapest plates I could find on eBay; the one in the picture is 1mm thick and cost me $5 delivered. Had to clamp it together with a plane iron on the top for rigidity.
The diamond plates do wear with use on the stone, please do not use the expensive DMT or Atoma for this.
(http://home.exetel.com.au/dropbox/Truing3.JPG)
IMPORTANT: Make sure the diamond plate contacts the stone by its surface, not the end, otherwise it will chip the wheel corners.
The full thread: https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3053.msg16372#msg16372 (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3053.msg16372#msg16372)
Quote from: RickKrung on December 28, 2017, 02:43:02 AM
Where can I get the Nagura stone?
I got mine at Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0037M4R7A/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 ).
I haven't tried Wootz' recommendation. Sounds promising.
Rich
Quote from: wootz on December 28, 2017, 03:06:21 AM
Hi Rick - you don't need either, believe me.
Many had advocated diamond plates for conditioning the wheels after truing and cleaning in between, but it took me time to recognize all the benefits of it.
Don't be like me, and take this shortcut.
#400 diamond plate for the SG or SB wheel graded to #800-1000;
#1000 diamond plate for the #4000 SJ wheel.
A #1000 diamond plate in the Tormek Square Edge jig is the best solution for declogging SJ.
As the diamond plate I use the cheapest plates I could find on eBay; the one in the picture is 1mm thick and cost me $5 delivered. Had to clamp it together with a plane iron on the top for rigidity.
The diamond plates do wear with use on the stone, please do not use the expensive DMT or Atoma for this.
IMPORTANT: Make sure the diamond plate contacts the stone by its surface, not the end, otherwise it will chip the wheel corners.
Thank you, Wootz.
I recall seeing the thread you reference, but as I said, I'm only now really starting to pay attention. I'll need to go read that thread more thoroughly. What do you suppose is the physical process that is occurring during the conditioning/cleaning/declogging with the diamond plates? Especially as it differs from the other solutions proffered. Are we talking about steel particles that are adhered to the stone surface or embedded in the stone matrix? I expect both.
I'd ask the same of others who have advanced methods. What is happening with the rust eraser, the Nagura stone, the soaking in water? I'll state my assumption about the stone grader: it breaks down the stone matrix, releasing adhered and embedded steel particles. There has to be a small amount of wear on the stone.
I don't get at all how simply soaking the stone in water removes steel particles unless it simply rusts them away, which I would think would leave rust stains.
I'll offer an example. There is a brick of soft rubbery material that is used to de-clog wood sanding disks and belts. It is soft enough to wear away significantly, but it is sticky enough to pull clogged wood particles out of the sander media. There can hardly be any wear on the sander media, but works very effectively.
Rick
Rick,
The Nagura stone wears away quite fast. I don't know the physics, but would bet it is the same as the rubber block for cleaning a sanding belt.
Kind regards,
Rich
"Honing
When grinding, a burr (or wire edge) develops on the upper side of the edge. This burr must be honed off on a ne grit honing stone or slipstone. The honing also removes the marks left by the grinding wheel which makes the surface ner. When the grinding is made on a coarse grinding wheel, the surface requires more honing.
The honing stone must work on the entire bevel of the edge otherwise the tip will be rounded off. The burr bends from side to side and therefore both sides of the edge need to be honed alternately.
You can also power hone on a felt buf ng wheel mounted on a bench grinder. However there is here a great risk of rounding off the tip of the edge due to the aggressive honing effect caused by the high speed (usually 2,850 rpm at 50 Hz and 3,400 rpm at 60 Hz). You must also pay attention so that you do not press the tool too hard towards the wheel which could cause overheating of the edge.
With the Tormek system you hone on leather honing wheels running at a low rpm. The low speed enables you to control the operation and there is no risk of rounding off or overheat- ing the edge. The honing process is also controlled with jigs, so you get exactly the same edge angle and movement pattern towards the wheel as during the previous sharpening."
This is quoted from page 19 of the handbook.In my opinion, it illustrates a root cause of difficulty with the SJ grinding wheel. Torgny Jansson did an outstanding job with the Tormek handbook. Compare it with the instructions which come with most tools. Once you read through the standard electrical safety boilerplate (an English work for the standard pages of legal verbage in all contracts), there isn't much other information. By contrast, Torgny put a lot of useful instruction into the handbook. I find this source information important enough to have collected several earlier editions of the handbook in case a future heavy handed editor decides to eliminate it.
The problem is that the handbook has not been completely updated since the introduction of the SJ and SB grinding wheels. With dry grinding wheels, switching from one grit of a standard aluminum oxide grinding wheel to another is not a big deal. With Tormek grinding wheels, the basic structure of the wheels is different enough that the handbook should provide in depth guidance. It does not. Nor is this information given more than cursory coverage in Tormek's videos. Tormek has that knowledge and is very willing to share it one to one or post it, however, there is not an effective mass audience mechanism to cover it. This is regrettable, because in skilled hands, both grinding wheels are very useful tools.
I think Tormek's vision of a single, multipurpose grinding wheel with alterable grit, to be followed with a single leather honing wheel with multipurpose honing compound is commendable. It provides the professional, school, or home sharpener with a rugged, versatile, and practical machine. The problem began when Tormek began introducing different optional grinding wheels. When skillfully used, both of these optional wheels can produce quality results. I purchased my first Tormek and joined the forum in August of 2009, just before the SB and SJ grinding wheels were introduced. I purchased both shortly after their introduction. I have read all the posts about them. Most of these posts are related to problems using the SB. A few very experienced sharpeners have reported very good results with the SB. That has convinced me that the problems are not the wheel itself.
There is a knife club in Sweden which uses the SJ wheel extensively for the pinnacle of edges.
I am convinced that both wheels are fine useful products, when used in knowledgeable, skilled hands. There is just not an effective method being used to convey that knowledge. As quoted, even Tormek's online handbook edition does not mention the SJ in the honing section. We need both more complete information in the handbook and more in depth training videos.
A loyal, but sometimes frustrated Tormek user,
Ken
Quote from: RickKrung on December 28, 2017, 06:21:12 AM
... What do you suppose is the physical process that is occurring during the conditioning/cleaning/declogging with the diamond plates? Especially as it differs from the other solutions proffered. Are we talking about steel particles that are adhered to the stone surface or embedded in the stone matrix? I expect both.
...
Rick
Virtually the same as when you use a diamond lapping plate to flatten a Japanese bench stone - abrades away the surface layer of the stone.
Waste of the wheel is negligible, a caliper detects a change in wheel diameter by a fraction of mm only after 5-6 uses of the diamond plate to clean it.
The major advantage of this method over others is that it maintains the wheel flat and square.
Used with a square jig, I'd say it is as precise as truing with TT50, if not better.
And we pursue precision, don't we?
Quote from: RickKrung on December 28, 2017, 06:21:12 AM
Quote from: wootz on December 28, 2017, 03:06:21 AM
Hi Rick - you don't need either, believe me.
Many had advocated diamond plates for conditioning the wheels after truing and cleaning in between, but it took me time to recognize all the benefits of it.
Don't be like me, and take this shortcut.
#400 diamond plate for the SG or SB wheel graded to #800-1000;
#1000 diamond plate for the #4000 SJ wheel.
A #1000 diamond plate in the Tormek Square Edge jig is the best solution for declogging SJ.
As the diamond plate I use the cheapest plates I could find on eBay; the one in the picture is 1mm thick and cost me $5 delivered. Had to clamp it together with a plane iron on the top for rigidity.
The diamond plates do wear with use on the stone, please do not use the expensive DMT or Atoma for this.
IMPORTANT: Make sure the diamond plate contacts the stone by its surface, not the end, otherwise it will chip the wheel corners.
Thank you, Wootz.
I recall seeing the thread you reference, but as I said, I'm only now really starting to pay attention. I'll need to go read that thread more thoroughly. What do you suppose is the physical process that is occurring during the conditioning/cleaning/declogging with the diamond plates? Especially as it differs from the other solutions proffered. Are we talking about steel particles that are adhered to the stone surface or embedded in the stone matrix? I expect both.
I'd ask the same of others who have advanced methods. What is happening with the rust eraser, the Nagura stone, the soaking in water? I'll state my assumption about the stone grader: it breaks down the stone matrix, releasing adhered and embedded steel particles. There has to be a small amount of wear on the stone.
I don't get at all how simply soaking the stone in water removes steel particles unless it simply rusts them away, which I would think would leave rust stains.
I'll offer an example. There is a brick of soft rubbery material that is used to de-clog wood sanding disks and belts. It is soft enough to wear away significantly, but it is sticky enough to pull clogged wood particles out of the sander media. There can hardly be any wear on the sander media, but works very effectively.
Rick
No doubt a diamond plate would be the best for cleaning up a stone... I just think it's a bit overkill, when all I want to do is quickly get some of the "black" off the stone during a sharpening. It's why I like the rust eraser... hold it against the stone for a few seconds, and I'm good to go. (I also don't have to warn you against chipping the edge of your stone). ;)
There's a small amount of abrasive in a rust eraser (otherwise it wouldn't come in different abrasive levels), and you will see a slight amount of stone removed, (but nowhere near the level of a diamond stone), so that combined with basically feeling like the rubber of a pencil, is what cleans the stone (probably similar to a belt "cleaning stick"). As opposed to a diamond plate... it doesn't really "clean", it mainly just exposes a fresh surface. I'd say a nagura stone is somewhere in between... depending on the type you get.
I've never had a waterstone cleanup just by soaking it... so I wouldn't expect a Tormek stone to behave any different.
Hello Tormekers.
I wish you all the best for 2018 and further.
Now about the SJ 250,cleaning of the dark residues without wasting money
I use the same procedure as for my ceramic rods and it works very fine.
I use Scotch Brite sponges (in every household) effective and cheap.
Give it a try.
Have a nice day
Marcel
Quote from: hog on January 04, 2018, 02:35:46 PM
Hello Tormekers.
I wish you all the best for 2018 and further.
Now about the SJ 250,cleaning of the dark residues without wasting money
I use the same procedure as for my ceramic rods and it works very fine.
I use Scotch Brite sponges (in every household) effective and cheap.
Give it a try.
Have a nice day
Marcel
Good idea.
I'll try.
Clever idea, Marcel.
Like Sharpco, I will give it a try.
Ken