I recently sharpened eight knives with my T2. The eight knives were a mixture of sizes, ages and quality. All were reasonably sharp prior to this sharpening. I used the T2 according to the instructions. This was preliminary work to break in the new DWF-200 600 grit diamond wheel.
I was generally pleased with the simplified knife jig. It easily handled all of my knives except for my eight inch Henckel chef's knife. This is a traditional style European knife with a bolster and a thicker back. Its dimensions are within the T2's limits, however, it did not slide well in the jig with the paper installed. At this early stage, I don't know if the constraint is with the jig or the operator. I will investigate further.
Following the suggestion CB made in a later post of this topic, I resharpened my eight inch Henckel chef's knife, this time inserting it lower into the slot. It slid in and out nicely. The grinding went more smoothly, and the BESS reading came down to just over 200. That reading won't win prizes, but it is much better than a factory new reading. The knife is sharp. While I was sharpening, I took the opportunity to grind down the bolster. The T2 did this very well.
My initial BESS readings were not impressive. They would pass muster for a new knife, however, they would be no match for a skilled sharpener with a conventional Tormek. I believe they may be typical of results from restaurant employees. I expect to improve them with practice.
I found setup quick and had no trouble switching knives. I used the provided protective paper and noticed no scratches. I was pleasantly surprised with the low amount of both grinding metal and rubberized debris from the honing wheel.
The T2 requires a change in mindset for Tormek users. The conventional Tormek models, T 7/8, T4, etc., are designed to allow the skilled operator to create very sharp edges on a variety of woodworking, home, and kitchen tools. These edges are efficient, repeatable, and require a minimum amount of metal removal. The T2 is designed to allow restaurant personnel to quickly produce acceptable edges on kitchen knives only with a minimum of setup or time involved.
In my opinion, the target market would be well served with a T2. The professional sharpener, or those who sharpen a variety of tools, would be better served with a T8.
My testing and reviewing will continue. Comments, as always, are welcome.
Ken
While this will work on forged knives, I do expect there will be some that will be too thick for it. You should see a circle with NSF on the blade if the knives are certified for commercial use. (Wusthof is the exception that I have seen, they don't place that mark on them) Wooden handles are not allowed, and riveted handles I have only seen on forged knives, must have non porous material for the handle (scales I believe is the term). Forged knives the bolsters vary, and I expect those will be an issue, as they have been before, using the other model Tormeks.
So far all the stamped NSF certified knives I have seen, have a molded handle, and no bolster, and are lighter then the forged, which tends to be more comfortable to use all day in the kitchen. These later knives, I believe to be the target audience of this machine. I think their BESS readings, would be higher then a forged knives, due to the thickness issues. However I think an experienced sharpener, or even a beginner who takes more time, could surpass them on a regular Tormek.
I also would be interested in seeing how this goes if using a completely dull knife (no edge, just plain steel). I have a term for that kind of knife, as I was asked to eliminate the edge of one knife, for a "cake knife", that is loaned to customers who bring in birthday cakes, etc. Good enough for a cake, and much harder for a kid to hurt themselves with.
Very informative post, SADW.
I came to this forum as a hobby woodworker sharpening chisels and plane irons. I did not originally sharpen knives, using the same lame excuse with my knives as those who do not want to wear out their precious grinding wheels. Meeting Steve Bottorff gave me an opportunity to learn from a master, something I would not pass up. There is a lot about knives I still don't know.
I think part of a proper knife sharpener's knowledge base should be a good understanding of health codes, as they pertain to knives in restaurants. That would be a valuable service of this forum.
Keep posting.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on September 26, 2017, 05:29:15 PM
...except for my eight inch Henckel chef's knife. This is a traditional style European knife with a bolster and a thicker back. Its dimensions are within the T2's limits, however, it did not slide well in the jig with the paper installed. At this early stage, I don't know if the constraint is with the jig or the operator. I will investigate further.
I think you'll find, if you don't try and slide this knife in with the spine at the top of the guide, but about 1/2 way down (just above where the edge would start contacting the wheel)... you should be able to slide it all the way in. I think it's a constraint of the jig... not the operator... the thickness of that knife (if it's the same as mine), is right at the limit of the guide, and in reality, the limit probably should be a bit less, especially with the paper "sleeve" inserted.
CB,
Your suggestion worked very well. My Henckel chef's knife slid in and out smoothly. The grinding seemed smoother and looked more uniform. The BESS reading was around 220, not steller, but much better than before and better than one would expect from a factory edge. I was pleased, and hope for continual improvement with more use.
I noticed the bolster needed to be ground down. None of the Tormek literature covers this, including the T2 instructions. Working handheld (wheel turning away), the T2 made quick and neat work of the protruding bolster.
Thanks for the tip.
Ken
We have 2 threads running on the T-2.... but this is the main one, so I pulled a couple of quotes from the other thread...
Quote from: cbwx34 on September 25, 2017, 03:05:26 PM
Made one other change though... I'll keep it quiet for now, to see if you arrive at the same conclusion... but one I think expands on its capabilities (but puts it outside of its "intended use"). 8)
Quote from: Ken S on September 27, 2017, 03:37:27 AM
I normally sharpen knives with the edge trailing direction and lift at the tip. Neither will work with the T2.
Bingo. This is the change that I made. Stopped using the T-2 guide... and started just sharpening freehand, edge trailing, on top of the diamond wheel. Definitely puts it "outside of its intended use"... but much better results.
I'm really not liking the guide on the T-2... even for its "intended use"... I'm starting to see some potential issues. First, I'll get this out of the way... the paper sleeves work, but are a PITA to deal with. They'll slip out sometimes, I'm back to "trim to fit" for better results, you have to make sure you get the knife between the paper each time... bottom line, if scratching is an issue, it may be better to tape the blade.
Now let's look at some knives. I'll start with some "NSF" rated knives... the type most likely to be seen in a commercial kitchen. (This is 4-pack from Costco)...
(https://image.ibb.co/jmRwW5/NSF_Knives_01.jpg)
Here's the issues that I see...
- 3 out of the 4 knives... the handle will hit the guide preventing the heel from being contacted. This requires the user to slide the guide back and forth (making sure the angle is the same) each time the knife side is switched. The only knife that reaches is the small paring knife. For a user with minimal training in sharpening... this is going to result in a low spot in front of the heel... my thought is, a user isn't going to mess with the guide as required.
- The Chef's knife width is right at the 60mm limit of the T-2. So, when slid all the way to the handle, it immediately contacts the stone. Again, I think it will result in a recurve, unless the user pays very close attention.
Slide the guide to allow the heel to reach the edge of the stone, and two more issues crop up...
(https://image.ibb.co/fLQqr5/NSF_Knife_Handle_Issue_01.jpg)
- The part of the plastic guide that slides into the base comes out, rendering the angle guide useless, and
- the handle hits the wheel, and since it's difficult to see and rotate the knife in the guide, it's hard to deal with.
(BTW, that's the same knife as the gray handle Santoku style... just grabbed a white one by mistake for the pics).
Next, some miscellaneous kitchen knives...
(https://image.ibb.co/d4v1yk/Misc_Kitchen_Knives_01.jpg)
- The small paring knife fit OK, but the sides were just 'rough' enough, it kept pushing the paper out
- The handle hit the guide on the OXO knife
- The Henckel fit, but kept pushing the paper out, and as Ken noted, being right at the max thickness of the guide, you have to start about 1/2 down the guide for it to fit properly, otherwise it becomes too tight to maneuver.
So, what knives actually work? A set of KAI knives, seem to be the best design...
(https://image.ibb.co/iFoodk/KAI_Knives_01.jpg)
... thin enough to maneuver, with enough clearance between the handle and the heel to properly sharpen the knife without issue, (and the sides didn't push the paper out). But I doubt these will be found in a commercial kitchen??
IMHO... know what would work better? An adaptation of Herman Trivilino's platform jig. Since the stone size doesn't change, it could be affixed with an angle guide, since most kitchen knives don't taper significantly, this could basically be ignored, and it would allow the user better control, and to be able to see exactly what is going on. The current guide doesn't really allow any visual adjustment until you finish a pass. Only issue would be scuffing, but a small roll or piece of paper with adhesive on one side would probably work, (based on the current sleeve), but would not be as likely to move during sharpening. I think sharpening with the wheel turning away from the edge, produces a better edge also. Finally, I don't see teaching a user to: set the angle of the platform, lay the knife on the platform... to be any more difficult than the current guide... and has the above mentioned advantages.
Anyway, my .02. BTW, sharpening without the guide, if one has the experience to do so, makes it more viable for pro knife sharpeners. Whether or not there are advantages over a regular Tormek.... to be continued. ;)
Well done post, CB.
I am off to my grandchildren's school for several hours, and will reply when I have the time your post deserves.
Keep thinking!
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on September 27, 2017, 07:35:12 PM
CB,
Your suggestion worked very well. My Henckel chef's knife slid in and out smoothly. The grinding seemed smoother and looked more uniform. The BESS reading was around 220, not steller, but much better than before and better than one would expect from a factory edge. I was pleased, and hope for continual improvement with more use.
I noticed the bolster needed to be ground down. None of the Tormek literature covers this, including the T2 instructions. Working handheld (wheel turning away), the T2 made quick and neat work of the protruding bolster.
Thanks for the tip.
Ken
Glad it worked. I think grinding bolsters is definitely outside of its intended use... ;)
Looks like you're coming to the same conclusions I am though.. once you move beyond the "intended use" aspect.
CB,
Grinding bolsters is not mentioned in the T2 instructions.To the best of my knowledge, bolster grinding is not mentioned in any Tormek instructions or videos. From that I would conclude it is no more outside the intended purpose of the T 2 than any other model.
From the start, I have believed that the T2 has more capabilities than the original purpose. I encourage you to explore that path and post your thoughts. I will look into that path, too, eventually. Unlike you, since you purchased your T2, I feel an obligation to use it extensively as intended. I do not feel obligated to limit my reviewing to the original purpose; I do feel I should begin there. Incidentally, the obligation I feel is self generated, not directed from Sweden.
Today I used several of the knives I sharpened with the T2. They performed as I expected from freshly Tormek sharpened knives. My "test kitchen" is just me working in my kitchen. I make no scientific claim to fame. I have found the knives I just sharpened very adequate. Granted, one must take into consideration the size limits of the jig. Set up is very straightforward and simple. The bevels from the diamond wheel and rubber honing wheel are not as smoothly polished as with the Tormek method, especially if the SJ Japanese stone is part of the process. However, the very slight bevel roughness may increase the toothiness of the knife and prove a plus in the kitchen.
Enough thoughts for one night.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on September 28, 2017, 01:45:17 AM
... I feel an obligation to use it extensively as intended. I do not feel obligated to limit my reviewing to the original purpose; I do feel I should begin there.
....
Since I'm sure you already know some of the potential issues, and how to adjust for them... you might consider assigning a knife or two to a family member, friend, etc., (who doesn't sharpen), with nothing more than the instruction book to guide them. (Maybe pick a knife that needs adjusting for the handle, like in my earlier post). Then evaluate the knives after a few sharpenings, and see if anything crops up.
Hi,
Thanks for pictures and interesting thoughts.
Designing a machine with a purpose to serve in the professional kitchen, where they count minutes and seconds in everything, the design and operation must be as easy as possible. A large issue is the hundred or thousands of different knifes that are on the market. There is no design that can sharpen absolute everything so the main goal is to find a design that work on most of them. During our research, the knifes that cbwx34 are using to demonstrate the problems he found, is of course the same knifes that we know needs more steps in the set up. We found this type of knifes to be less used in the professional kitchen than knives with the design on Mac, Global, Victorinox Grand Maître and very more brands and in general, knives with no bolster or handles that goes over the knifes blades back.
We worked with some of the best chefs in the world before we started to sell the machine outside of Sweden.
They wanted a reliable machine to sharpen their knifes as fast as possible with the same result every time. We have a 100% positive feedback from the users we are addressing this machine to, from all our markets we now sell the machine on. In France, where the Sabatier design is common, we have sold hundreds of machines with no comments of problems from the chefs using the T-2.
They don't care about some minor scratches on the blade, they don't use the paper inlay, the knife is a tool to be used and they want it sharp at any time. As one of them said, he made more scratches with the steel he used before starting using the T-2.
For a sharpening business, we don't recommend the T-2.
A T-8 with the jig system with SVM-00/45/140 can sharpen way more models of knifes. A knife sharpened and honed with the leather wheel gives a sharper knife than most common new knifes.
This is why we recommend the T-2 to restaurants and chefs, who wanted a fast and reliable machine, that gives them sharp knifes 24/7 in the kitchen.
As usual, designing a tool or machine or whatever a thing is designed for, there is always things that are compensated for to make it work for so many users as possible.
We designed this machine for the professional kitchen. We know that there will be customers outside the initial group of intended users who will purchase this machine because it seems easier than using jigs but we try to use our marketing to get users to understand where the machines Tormek produces is supposed to be used.
I understand that a machine like this can maybe feel a bit as a threat to someone who is in the sharpening business and wants to find as many as possible problems with a machine like the T-2. In general no one will change something that works well for them. If a sharpening business always gives great service and high quality of sharpening, their customers won't search for other ways to sharpen.
Sincerely,
Stig
Stig,
Thank you for a very informative post. As an old chisel sharpener, I looked at the world of sharpening knives through the lens of my seven Henckel knives. I bought them twenty seven years ago. They are more suited to an affluent gourmet cook than a hard working professional kitchen. (I am neither wealthy nor a gourmet cook; I just overbuy quality in tools.) My knives all have bolsters.
Since meeting Steve Bottorff, I have become more kitchen knife oriented. I have added half a dozen more modern bolsterless, inexpensive knives. I did this mostly for forum work. Although I have had a little exposure to the world of the professional sharpener through Steve's DVD and forum posts, I am still essentially a home knife user who chops vegetables.
In my case, the mystique of the T2 is the diamond wheel. Combined with using a kenjig for set up, I find the conventional Tormek knife jigs very efficient. I believe one should not speak negatively about a tool until one has mastered using it. With the knife jigs, we of the forum have developed several tools and techniques for very quick, accurate, and repeatable use of the knife jigs. While I have no problem dealing with the regular knife jigs, I also appreciate the engineering which went into developing the T2 knife jig. After just initial use, I am becoming convinced that the T2 jig can be the fastest, easiest Tormek knife jig to use for the most users. The knife afficionado will continue to be better served by the conventional Tormek and the several stage technique. Quite recently, I would add best served by using the software our own Wootz (knifegrinders.com.au) has developed.
I appreciate Stig's honest statements about the T2 and T8. I agree about the professional sharpener who delivers outstanding work reliably and on time. In my personal business dealings, I have stayed with reliable people who give quality service.
For the tinkerer in me, I find both the diamond wheel and the rubberlike honing wheel fascinating. I do not expect the diamond wheel to last "forever". For my use, it will most probably outlast me, which is more than adequate. To its credit, Tormek will make both diamond wheels (600 and 320 grit) and the honing wheel available as spare parts. All are an exact fir for the T4, providing the mystique of the new products with the versatile Tormek universal support and all the jigs. (Also the SJ-200 for those who want the ultimate edge.) The 200mm diameter diamond wheels will also work with the larger Tormek models, as well as any wheel worn to 200mm will work. From personal experience, I would add that a 200 mm wheel works best with the T4, a machine specifically designed for it. I would also add that the SG remains my go to wheel.
I applaud Tormek for providing such a well designed, practical machine for a market niche at an affordable price. It is a very clever adaptation of the T4. Except for the zinc top housing and the color, it is identical with the T4. It shares most of the same parts with the larger Tormek models. Tormek has combined the proven reliability of the SuperGrind heritage, the technical advancement of the zinc and plastic housings of the T4 and T8, and some very user specific new ideas. I am impressed that the dedign crew sees the wisdom of using quality common size parts for the "nuts and bolts" of the machine to keep cost reasonable while spending the money where it really counts. The custom machined zinc tops and stainless steel EZYlock shafts are genuine improvements.
I do not foresee the T2 relegating SuperGrinds and their users to the scrap heap. I do foresee professional sharpeners with good long term relationships with their restaurant customers having honest conversations about the pros and cons of do it yourself sharpening. The T2 is not a $59 wunderkind gadget. It is a serious investment. It involves diverting restaurant personnel from other tasks. A first rate sharpener should be able to present the value of his experience without running down any competition, including a T2.
I think the T2 represents exciting new developments for Tormek. Just as auto racing has produced improvements for the family car, I believe the T2 world will produce benefits for all Tormek users.
Ken
Thanks for the reply. (Hope you don't mind, I'll respond inside your quote).
Quote from: Stickan on September 28, 2017, 09:35:10 AM
Hi,
Thanks for pictures and interesting thoughts.
Designing a machine with a purpose to serve in the professional kitchen, where they count minutes and seconds in everything, the design and operation must be as easy as possible. A large issue is the hundred or thousands of different knifes that are on the market. There is no design that can sharpen absolute everything so the main goal is to find a design that work on most of them. During our research, the knifes that cbwx34 are using to demonstrate the problems he found, is of course the same knifes that we know needs more steps in the set up. We found this type of knifes to be less used in the professional kitchen than knives with the design on Mac, Global, Victorinox Grand Maître and very more brands and in general, knives with no bolster or handles that goes over the knifes blades back.
You're right about this, and to be fair, the NSF blades I referenced are difficult to sharpen in just about every sharpener. I don't know how common they are, other than I see that Santoku style in use a lot when I got out to eat. (Could be supplied by a local "knife rental" business, for all I know). But I'm not sure I see a way to sharpen it on the T-2, without some sort of compromise.
We worked with some of the best chefs in the world before we started to sell the machine outside of Sweden.
They wanted a reliable machine to sharpen their knifes as fast as possible with the same result every time. We have a 100% positive feedback from the users we are addressing this machine to, from all our markets we now sell the machine on. In France, where the Sabatier design is common, we have sold hundreds of machines with no comments of problems from the chefs using the T-2.
They don't care about some minor scratches on the blade, they don't use the paper inlay, the knife is a tool to be used and they want it sharp at any time. As one of them said, he made more scratches with the steel he used before starting using the T-2.
I guess my question here would be, what is the common knife used in the U.S. in a commercial kitchen? (I have no idea). I don't disagree about the scratches... I think my point there was, if someone is looking at the T-2 as a sharpener to get and sharpen other people's knives... it's a bit of a pain to deal with, if you want to avoid scratching. This really just reinforces its intended use.
I also have a couple of questions. In the testing/feedback you conducted, did you ever find, over a period of time, a point where the knife needed a "professional sharpening", and/or a sharpening method outside of the T-2 being used? Did any issues crop up such as the blade needing to be thinned, a recurve at the heel that had to be ground out, etc.?
For a sharpening business, we don't recommend the T-2.
A T-8 with the jig system with SVM-00/45/140 can sharpen way more models of knifes. A knife sharpened and honed with the leather wheel gives a sharper knife than most common new knifes.
Totally agree.
This is why we recommend the T-2 to restaurants and chefs, who wanted a fast and reliable machine, that gives them sharp knifes 24/7 in the kitchen.
As usual, designing a tool or machine or whatever a thing is designed for, there is always things that are compensated for to make it work for so many users as possible.
We designed this machine for the professional kitchen. We know that there will be customers outside the initial group of intended users who will purchase this machine because it seems easier than using jigs but we try to use our marketing to get users to understand where the machines Tormek produces is supposed to be used.
Do you think there's a limit to the "style" of knife, for example the NSF knives, and should that be included in the limits of the guide? Of do you see a way to sharpen them that I'm not seeing? I do try and look for solutions to problems I encounter (for example the thickness of the Henckels that was brought up earlier), but in this case, I haven't found one... yet.
I understand that a machine like this can maybe feel a bit as a threat to someone who is in the sharpening business and wants to find as many as possible problems with a machine like the T-2. In general no one will change something that works well for them. If a sharpening business always gives great service and high quality of sharpening, their customers won't search for other ways to sharpen.
I'm not sure if this part was to me specifically, but I don't have a sharpening business for kitchen knives, and am not wanting to "find problems". Merely documenting what I found so far.
Sincerely,
Stig
Thanks!
Quote from: Stickan on September 28, 2017, 09:35:10 AM
Designing a machine with a purpose to serve in the professional kitchen, where they count minutes and seconds in everything, the design and operation must be as easy as possible. A large issue is the hundred or thousands of different knifes that are on the market. There is no design that can sharpen absolute everything so the main goal is to find a design that work on most of them. During our research, the knifes that cbwx34 are using to demonstrate the problems he found, is of course the same knifes that we know needs more steps in the set up. We found this type of knifes to be less used in the professional kitchen than knives with the design on Mac, Global, Victorinox Grand Maître and very more brands and in general, knives with no bolster or handles that goes over the knifes blades back.
We worked with some of the best chefs in the world before we started to sell the machine outside of Sweden.
They wanted a reliable machine to sharpen their knifes as fast as possible with the same result every time. We have a 100% positive feedback from the users we are addressing this machine to, from all our markets we now sell the machine on. In France, where the Sabatier design is common, we have sold hundreds of machines with no comments of problems from the chefs using the T-2.
They don't care about some minor scratches on the blade, they don't use the paper inlay, the knife is a tool to be used and they want it sharp at any time. As one of them said, he made more scratches with the steel he used before starting using the T-2.
Sincerely,
Stig
I would disagree with you a bit, but then again, what you may mean and wrote, could come across as two different things.
What defines a "professional kitchen"?
I would say the knives that CB tried, would be used in something between 75 and 80% of the commercial kitchens I am aware of. Now the chef's in higher end kitchens, are more likely to have both higher end and costing knives, as well as being less likely to let someone else use or sharpen them. I do agree that they are less likely to worry about scratches, if THEY are doing the sharpening, and also in a hurry. If they have someone else doing the sharpening, I expect they would want the condition of the knife to be better then that.
I think that sharper then most knives out of the package, would be wonderful to most of the users, of these lower cost knives if they choose to go the sharpening route, verses considering them as consumable.
I would have to talk to my neighbor about his chef's experience, and find out if it was like his carpenters experience, prior to him coming over to the USA. That involved apprenticeship where he spent a lot of time just sharpening the tools.
As for the T-2's use without the guide, I do expect it would be used freehand, by any of those establishments with larger knives or things like cleavers. So I don't think that is out of range of this tool.
Otherwise, my view is even if it takes a bit more time, or if they don't grind all the way back to the handle (how many use a full stroke of those knives), this would certainly prolong the use of the knives, before having to send them out to have them professionally sharpened.
No problem, Ill do the same but in green :-)
Quote from: cbwx34 on September 28, 2017, 03:35:44 PM
Thanks for the reply. (Hope you don't mind, I'll respond inside your quote).
Quote from: Stickan on September 28, 2017, 09:35:10 AM
Hi,
Thanks for pictures and interesting thoughts.
Designing a machine with a purpose to serve in the professional kitchen, where they count minutes and seconds in everything, the design and operation must be as easy as possible. A large issue is the hundred or thousands of different knifes that are on the market. There is no design that can sharpen absolute everything so the main goal is to find a design that work on most of them. During our research, the knifes that cbwx34 are using to demonstrate the problems he found, is of course the same knifes that we know needs more steps in the set up. We found this type of knifes to be less used in the professional kitchen than knives with the design on Mac, Global, Victorinox Grand Maître and very more brands and in general, knives with no bolster or handles that goes over the knifes blades back.
You're right about this, and to be fair, the NSF blades I referenced are difficult to sharpen in just about every sharpener. I don't know how common they are, other than I see that Santoku style in use a lot when I got out to eat. (Could be supplied by a local "knife rental" business, for all I know). But I'm not sure I see a way to sharpen it on the T-2, without some sort of compromise.
Knifes of this type is more a butchers knife than a chef´s. A butcher normally have other machines available, especially on a plant. We did not make the T-2 to get into this area. Santuko knifes are in general easy to sharpen with the T-2.
We worked with some of the best chefs in the world before we started to sell the machine outside of Sweden.
They wanted a reliable machine to sharpen their knifes as fast as possible with the same result every time. We have a 100% positive feedback from the users we are addressing this machine to, from all our markets we now sell the machine on. In France, where the Sabatier design is common, we have sold hundreds of machines with no comments of problems from the chefs using the T-2.
They don't care about some minor scratches on the blade, they don't use the paper inlay, the knife is a tool to be used and they want it sharp at any time. As one of them said, he made more scratches with the steel he used before starting using the T-2.
I guess my question here would be, what is the common knife used in the U.S. in a commercial kitchen? (I have no idea). I don't disagree about the scratches... I think my point there was, if someone is looking at the T-2 as a sharpener to get and sharpen other people's knives... it's a bit of a pain to deal with, if you want to avoid scratching. This really just reinforces its intended use.
We had discussions with knife manufacturers before offering this machine. I am not sure there is a most common knife in US. There are as much opinions about knifes that there is about cars. Which has all the same purpose. Get you from A to B. So more or less, we have to make a qualified guess after our research and discussions with companies who are in the business and make a machine to be targeted to so many blades as possible. About scratches, we are aware of those who want to sharpen knifes with a Damaskus blade (an example) , the paper is an easy way to protect the blade instead of taping the blade
I also have a couple of questions. In the testing/feedback you conducted, did you ever find, over a period of time, a point where the knife needed a "professional sharpening", and/or a sharpening method outside of the T-2 being used? Did any issues crop up such as the blade needing to be thinned, a recurve at the heel that had to be ground out, etc.?
On thin blades it works fine to use the T-2 for a long time without thinning a blade. The angle stays at the same degree as used but what you will see is that the edge-line gets wider up on the blade. Using the correct rolling technique should not acquire the heel to be recurved. I guess that you are thinking about machines with very small and stiff stones/wheels, they will produce a "fat" edge when it gets further up on a blade.
For a sharpening business, we don't recommend the T-2.
A T-8 with the jig system with SVM-00/45/140 can sharpen way more models of knifes. A knife sharpened and honed with the leather wheel gives a sharper knife than most common new knifes.
Totally agree.
This is why we recommend the T-2 to restaurants and chefs, who wanted a fast and reliable machine, that gives them sharp knifes 24/7 in the kitchen.
As usual, designing a tool or machine or whatever a thing is designed for, there is always things that are compensated for to make it work for so many users as possible.
We designed this machine for the professional kitchen. We know that there will be customers outside the initial group of intended users who will purchase this machine because it seems easier than using jigs but we try to use our marketing to get users to understand where the machines Tormek produces is supposed to be used.
Do you think there's a limit to the "style" of knife, for example the NSF knives, and should that be included in the limits of the guide? Of do you see a way to sharpen them that I'm not seeing? I do try and look for solutions to problems I encounter (for example the thickness of the Henckels that was brought up earlier), but in this case, I haven't found one... yet.
Of coarse there are limitations. As on our jigs, there are some tools in a toolgroup we can't sharpen with a jig. Many of our users will than adapt or make their own jig or sharpen freehand. As many have done on this forum :-)
I understand that a machine like this can maybe feel a bit as a threat to someone who is in the sharpening business and wants to find as many as possible problems with a machine like the T-2. In general no one will change something that works well for them. If a sharpening business always gives great service and high quality of sharpening, their customers won't search for other ways to sharpen.
I'm not sure if this part was to me specifically, but I don't have a sharpening business for kitchen knives, and am not wanting to "find problems". Merely documenting what I found so far.
This was not meant directly to you. Writing this answer yesterday I was thinking of our DBS-22 jig. When we started to sell the DBS-22 jig, many store-owners hesitated to have it on display because they thought they would sell less drillbits. Which of course they did not. Some sold more expensive drillbits along with the jig instead.
Sincerely,
Stig
Thanks!
Stig,
I think it was smart planning to test market the T2 in Sweden. After making knife sharpening equipment in Sweden for over forty years, as well as living and eating in Sweden, Tormek would have many long term relationships with people throughout the knife making and using industries. Even something as everyday and ordinary as going to lunch would provide an opportunity to chat with a restaurant owner, manager, or chef.
In our age of e-commerce and many product reviews from unknown people, it is often easy to overlook the value of very few reviews from people who really know. Your friend and our forum member, Magnus, is an example of this kind of expertise.
Based on your contact resources, do most restaurants and food establishments have a "go to" employee who does most of the in house sharpening? If so, did this person (or persons) receive instruction on using the T2 and/or sharpening, either from the dealer or a Tormek representative? In my opinion, this person would be a different user than the person who opened the shipping box and skimmed the instructions before being the (a) sharpener.
A young Swedish employee might well have the advantage of having used a Tormek in school. I recall your saying that all the schools in Sweden have Tormeks.
Over the years, my thinking about knives has changed. I still use my old traditional Henckels, with bolsters and tapered blades. Increasingly, I am using newer knives without bolsters and which are flat and thinner in construction. Twenty five years ago, I would have just thought of these knives as cheap, mass market products. Perhaps there was similar resistance years ago to plastic handles.
We are at a disadvantage in the US. Manual arts training in public schools is almost extinct. I have no idea what kind of sharpening training students are given in cooking schools. You mention the DBS-22 drill bit jig. My local dealer carries them, as they do all the Tormek jigs and accessories. However, with the exception of the store T7, all of the Tormek equipment is in boxes on shelves. Even the old store T7s are usually on shelves and not accessable for easy demonstrations. To the best of my knowledge, there are no Tormek seminars (company, importer or desler sponsored). Will the T2 be featured at woodworking or knife shows?
I have found only two or three very short T2 videos online, and they are in Swedish.There is certainly nothing wrong with the Swedish language, however, it is not the language of business in this country. I believe good salesmanship must include educating the customer to see the benefits of a product for him or his business. How does a prospective customer get this education in most countries? In my opinion, the T2 is a very useful product, however, I do not see it selling well without some solid company video support.
Ken
Stig... thanks for the reply... I will digest what you have written. :)
This is a couple of "working with what I have mods"... ::)
First, an easy one. When you stick a paper "sleeve" in the clamp, slit the top on either side, fold it out, and it stays in place better...
(https://image.ibb.co/k0Kn6G/T2_Paper_Fold_01.jpg)
Second mod. I removed the guide and stuck a piece of Kydex in its place...
(https://image.ibb.co/chrOfb/T2_Kydex_Guide_01.jpg)
...this works sufficiently to guide the knife, without the restrictions of the current guide. Have to pay a bit more attention, but at the same time, I can better see and manipulate the blade. (And the paper stays in place better, since it's only one side, and the pressure against it is lighter).
Anyway, just a couple of ideas I had, so giving them a try, and thought I'd throw 'em out there (for ideas/inspiration/critique if nothing else). 8)
CB,
I like your suggestions for the T2. I filled in the 10, 15, and 20° lines as you suggested with a black marker. Folding the paper seems logical. Kydex is new to me; that will reqiure more thought.
If it was up to me, I would make the included knife jig fixed at 15°, the European standard. I would have other jigs, perhaps 20°, something around 10°, and the present adjustable jig available as optional extras. As the guiding philosophy of the T2 is to be easily used by reataurant staff, why complicate things with an adjustable jig?
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on October 02, 2017, 03:45:16 AM
CB,
I like your suggestions for the T2. I filled in the 10, 15, and 20° lines as you suggested with a black marker. Folding the paper seems logical. Kydex is new to me; that will reqiure more thought.
If it was up to me, I would make the included knife jig fixed at 15°, the European standard. I would have other jigs, perhaps 20°, something around 10°, and the present adjustable jig available as optional extras. As the guiding philosophy of the T2 is to be easily used by reataurant staff, why complicate things with an adjustable jig?
Ken
It doesn't have to be Kydex... just what I had here, that I thought would work. Turns the guide into more of a "platform jig".
Good idea about making the knife jix fixed.
One of the things I like about this forum is that I am continually learning. Since my last post, I have learned that I have underestimated the knife sharpening knowledge of the real target market of the T2, restaurant chefs.
The speed and simplicity of the T2 fits well in a busy restaurant, however, the chef still wants control of the bevel angles of his knives. I see the logic of simplification. Not having to think about all the variables allows to to focus on the critical elements. I used this logic in the kenjig. Tormek has worked with chefs who also prefer simplicity, but want the flexibility of easily controlling the bevel angles.
Ken
Quote from: SharpenADullWitt on September 29, 2017, 06:08:23 AM
I would disagree with you a bit, but then again, what you may mean and wrote, could come across as two different things.
What defines a "professional kitchen"?
I would say the knives that CB tried, would be used in something between 75 and 80% of the commercial kitchens I am aware of. Now the chef's in higher end kitchens, are more likely to have both higher end and costing knives, as well as being less likely to let someone else use or sharpen them. I do agree that they are less likely to worry about scratches, if THEY are doing the sharpening, and also in a hurry. If they have someone else doing the sharpening, I expect they would want the condition of the knife to be better then that.
I think that sharper then most knives out of the package, would be wonderful to most of the users, of these lower cost knives if they choose to go the sharpening route, verses considering them as consumable.
I would have to talk to my neighbor about his chef's experience, and find out if it was like his carpenters experience, prior to him coming over to the USA. That involved apprenticeship where he spent a lot of time just sharpening the tools.
As for the T-2's use without the guide, I do expect it would be used freehand, by any of those establishments with larger knives or things like cleavers. So I don't think that is out of range of this tool.
Otherwise, my view is even if it takes a bit more time, or if they don't grind all the way back to the handle (how many use a full stroke of those knives), this would certainly prolong the use of the knives, before having to send them out to have them professionally sharpened.
Thanks for chiming in (I missed this earlier). Interesting point about how often you see these type of knives.
I agree about the scratching... can't be done by someone else doing the sharpening.
My only comment about not sharpening all the way to the handle... I'm sure you're aware that on some knives, like those for chopping or dicing, not being able to sharpen the entire blade and maintain the correct shape, can prevent the knife from performing properly.
Quote from: Ken S on October 02, 2017, 03:18:47 PM
One of the things I like about this forum is that I am continually learning. Since my last post, I have learned that I have underestimated the knife sharpening knowledge of the real target market of the T2, restaurant chefs.
The speed and simplicity of the T2 fits well in a busy restaurant, however, the chef still wants control of the bevel angles of his knives. I see the logic of simplification. Not having to think about all the variables allows to to focus on the critical elements. I used this logic in the kenjig. Tormek has worked with chefs who also prefer simplicity, but want the flexibility of easily controlling the bevel angles.
Ken
Your post makes me think that perhaps the "target audience" of the T-2 is narrower than what I considered it to be. I was thinking "commercial kitchen" with a wide variety of knives... now I'm thinking it's more of a select group with knives in a more specific category.
Probably proof that I missed the point....
(https://i.imgur.com/uBJr5h0.jpg)
2017 "The Restaurant Show" award.... (Trade Show in Olympia London).
Congrats! ;)
Thank you, this award made us proud ;D
Sincerely,
Stig
Great find, CB!
Stig, Tormek is too modest. This should have been posted earlier.
Ken
Ken,
CB posted this 2-3 hours after we won this award so he was pretty fast :D
Best,
Stig
Excellent reporting, CB. For some reason our news coverage got stuck covering the Nobel Prize for Physics and missed the big event.
Great job, Team Tormek!
Ken
It was the universe sending me a sign ... ;)
Instead of using paper to prevent scratching, why not use slick tape? Or electrical tape. There are a LOT of different tape products that would probably work.
Slick Strips:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0035Y46GM/ref=asc_df_B0035Y46GM5080557?smid=A19VW1BL9ZXZVA&tag=shopz0d-20&ascsubtag=shopzilla_mp_1213-20;15071389820426014884310080302008005&linkCode=df0&creative=395105&creativeASIN=B0035Y46GM
Protective Film Tape:
https://www.findtape.com/Patco-5560-Polyethylene-Removable-Protective-Film-Tape/p463/
You can buy 1 – 5 mil thick plastic film in rolls from a hardware store. You could cut enough little plastic squares from a roll to last many lifetimes and glue it on with removable adhesive. Or possibly little squares of Tyvek:
https://www.amazon.com/DuPont-Tyvek-55gm-A4-Sheets/dp/B00DRB0XIS
https://www.amazon.com/3M-Repositionable-Clear-Adhesive-10-2-Ounce/dp/B000BKQD82
Grepper,
Thank you for your thoughts. I will keep them in mind for future testing. For the present, I do not feel that I have fully tested the standard issue Tormek paper. I want to feel completely fluent with the standard issue machine and technique before pursuing other options.
Ken
Grepper and Ken,
In the instruction video we actually have a tip of using tape if the user wants to protect his knifes. This is a bit time assuming so thats why we instead did the easy paper tip. What we found and was told was that a working chef don't care much about these scratches since they get them with a steel also.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhA4uG9MUPU
Sincerely,
Stig
Quote from: grepper on October 04, 2017, 08:04:53 PM
Instead of using paper to prevent scratching, why not use slick tape? Or electrical tape. There are a LOT of different tape products that would probably work.
I've tried some tapes on other guides before, (not all the ones you've mentioned here), and found it not very effective at preventing scratching. I don't think it would be practical to glue something into place... even with temporary adhesive.
The "paper sleeve" solution actually works pretty well at preventing scratches, and is easy to use. The issues I mentioned earlier (trimming it and it sliding out), seemed to have been solved by slitting the top and folding it back, (and the sleeve can last for several knives this way).
Something I find interesting and have not seen discussed (from a commercial sharpening perspective)
I run a T8 from a van, and it's great. However I'm finding I'm working more and more freehand as the years progress..
One ongoing issue I have always had, is the need for my van to be virtually level, wherever I'm sharpening; to keep water from ending up all over the place. I may work up to 5-6 different sites in a day (residential and commercial)
A T2 could be an interesting prospect for a freehander potentially ?
Working freehand speeds up the per-knife process substantially, but not having to constantly be refilling, and levelling / dealing with water would be a HUGE advantage for us who work on the road.. assuming the wheel and motor are up to the job.
Any comments or thoughts appreciated.
Cheers,
Josh (Sydney Australia)
Josh,
Are the wheel and motor (of the T2) up to the job? Based on my limited use of my T2 and knowing that Tormek has designed the T2 specifically for industrial use, I would say that the wheel is up to the job. (Don't forget the Tormek warranty.) The motor is certainly up to the job. It is the same motor that is used in the T4. I have intentionally stressed my T4 by running it all day at a woodworking show. I have used it with both CBN and Norton 3x wheels. It is a real turbo machine with these wheels. I need a rest before the T4 does. I wish Tormek would get away from that confusing thirty minute cycle nonsense. That is a carry over from the overheating problem with the all plastic housing of the T3. Tormek corrected the issue with the zinc top of the T4 (which is the same top on the T2). The zinc acts as a radiator. Based solely on my finger tests, the T4 does not get hot. Technophobes will point out that the T4 motor has a different industrial use classification as the larger T8 motor. I think it is a non isdue. Do you sharpen while driving? :)
I have been pleasantly surprised with the low amount of metal dust with the T2.
While testing the T2, I needed to trim the bolster on a knife. Doing it freehand on the T2 was no problem.
For mobile work, I would suggest the T4 instead of the T2. The Bushcraft edition model package is a real bargain. Both of the diamond wheels, DWF-200 and DWC-200, 600 and 325 grit, are available as parts. So is the rubber honing wheel. They fit the T4 exactly and also (with an extra spacer washer) the T8 and other 250mm models.
All of the jigs and accessories for your T8 work with the T4. If you have been thinking about using an invertor, the smaller motor is 120 watts compared with 200 watts for the larger motor. I have never used an invertor, however, the lower wattage seems like an advantage.
You can make one of Herman's platforms, a definite aaid in freehand sharpening. The platform can be removed, allowing you to use the scissors jig for sharpening kitchen scissors.
My favorite benefit of the T4 is its compact size and weight (half the weight of the T8). I carry mine in an inexpensive single size bowling ball bag. It easily holds everything I might need for Tormek sharpening. I can grip it or use the shoulder strap. It is surprising and refreshingly comfortable to carry. Load it into the bag sitting on the boxed grinding wheel, or both wheels. Make sure to place the plastic spacer where the wheel is mounted. You are truly mobile.
Have you considered Making a simple plywood subbase for your T8? You could make shims to level it with a bubble level. A waterproof finish would protect it. It wouldn't need to be much larger than the T8 base. Used with the Tormek rubber work mat, or whatever you presently use, it would keep you level. Don't forget the turkey baster.
Must dash; it's time to get my grandchildren ready for school.
Keep us posted.
Ken
Quote from: joshinthecity on January 31, 2018, 06:09:19 AM
Something I find interesting and have not seen discussed (from a commercial sharpening perspective)
I run a T8 from a van, and it's great. However I'm finding I'm working more and more freehand as the years progress..
One ongoing issue I have always had, is the need for my van to be virtually level, wherever I'm sharpening; to keep water from ending up all over the place. I may work up to 5-6 different sites in a day (residential and commercial)
A T2 could be an interesting prospect for a freehander potentially ?
Working freehand speeds up the per-knife process substantially, but not having to constantly be refilling, and levelling / dealing with water would be a HUGE advantage for us who work on the road.. assuming the wheel and motor are up to the job.
Any comments or thoughts appreciated.
Cheers,
Josh (Sydney Australia)
I think a better option would be to look at alternative wheels for the T-8 (CBN, etc.)? (Not having used them myself, I'll let someone else comment if that would work or not). You might even be able to get a T-2 wheel and use it when needed, (although the CBN wheels come in the larger size).
A couple of other things to think about with the T-2:
- It's very limited. You can't use any jigs on it, the support bracket/bar for the angle guide is fixed and can't easily be removed (it appears you'd have to access it by removing parts inside the chassis).
- The wheel that comes with it cuts slow compared to what you're used to on the T-8. It's designed to maintain an edge. There is a more coarse wheel available, but again the CBN alternatives might be worth a look.
- The longevity of the diamond wheel hasn't been established to my knowledge. I also would rather have a regular grindstone for major repairs.
On the plus side, if you were doing knives that just needed a touch-up... it would be a quick easy way to do it, with minimal setup... especially if you're used to sharpening freehand.
So maybe consider it in addition to, but not a replacement of, the T-8? That would be my opinion.
As has been mentioned in other threads, once the wheel is "primed" for the day with water... it takes very little water in actual use. It took me a while to figure this out (it was brought up before in threads where water running off the knives was an issue), so I've been experimenting with it, (because initially I couldn't tell a difference), but I've found now that once the wheel is primed, having just enough water to make contact with the wheel does the job, and keeps water runoff, etc. to a minimum. Maybe worth a try?