Hi. I have a T7 ordered today. I'm very impressed with it. I seen quute a bit of videos on it.
Well, one of the reasons I ordered the T7 is to make hollow grinds on 1.5 inch long neck knives. I'm not sure if the jigs that come with it would work though, or if I got to do it freehand.
The D2 steel is ready to use planer blades one inch tall, one-eight thick and will be 4 to 6 inches long.
Anyone here ever use a T7 as a hollow grinder for small neck knives?
By the way, I will be pre-grinding the bevels (and blade profile) on a variable speed bench grinder. This way the T7 won't have too much material to remove.
Any one making knives with the T7?
Thanks.
Welcome to the forum, RustyGunn.
I have never made a knife. However, I have made grinding tests with a metal lathe cutting bit. A forum search should produce my tests using Norton 3X wheels wet wuth the Tormek. The eight inch 3X wheels will work with the T7. This would give you faster grinding with the cool grinding, dust and spark free Tormek environment.
Post again if you want more info; there are no forum secrets.
Ken
Thank you for responding. I'll check into the Norton wheels.
Norton 3x 8 inch gringing wheels, these work in water, eh? Thanks.
I did a search here and found one reference to using the 3x stone on lathe bits.
So, a quick google search brought up the Norton 3x Blue 8x1x1 wherl.
I was hoping for a 2 inch wide wheel, but ain't complaining.
I didn't see a reference to wet grinding, but saw one for dry grinding. Is this the one (Blue) that can go in water?
It does say its the coolest wheel available.
Any other experience using this 3x on D2 steel?
I use them wet. I suspect they will also work dry with the Tormek, however, I am spoiled by Tormek's cool, dust and spark free environment.
Do a forum search "norton 3x". It will bring up numerous posts.
Ken
Our posts crossed en route.
Two inch width would be luxurious, however, one inch is all that are available. Incidentally, the eight inch diameter Nortons work as well on the T7 as a Tormek wheel worn to eight inches. As I state, they are not ideal for the Tormek, but are quite serviceable.
I have never worked with D2 steel. Both 3X grit Norton wheels work well with metal lathe tool bits. I would guess D2 would be OK as well.
Be sure to read the instructions I have included about adapting the bore to 12mm; dressing the wheels; and drying them.
Keep posting if you have more questions!
Ken
To clarify, I also have a Delta 8-inch variable speed bench grinder on order. Its where the 3x will go if I buy one.
I want to see how the Delta ant.Tormek grinders work as-is first.
I figure to profile and pre-grind the bevel on the Delta, then move to the Tormek to finish up the bevels.
This method should work, but might be slow. I will keep researching this as I ho. Let the fun begin.
I have no experience with Delta's grinding wheels. They might work fine. I see they are 36 and 60 grit. That is a better combination than the finer grit wheels that used to come with grinders.
I first used the 46 grit 3X wheel with my 6 inch dry grinder. A friend asked me to sharpen two ancient splitting wedges with very mushroomed heads. My eighty grit white wheel was no match for them. I bought the 3X 46 grit wheel and it did the job. I first tested that six inch wheel with the T4, the six inch diameter not reaching the water trough of the T7. It made quick work of grinding a bolt. At that point I ordered the two eight inch 3X wheels. They work on either the T4 or the T7, better on the T 4.
Stop grinding on the dry grinder before you reach a sharp edge. A thicker blunt edge is less likely to overheat than a thinner edge.
Ken
Thanks for the info. I certainly will be sure to watch the edge thickness.
I will be dipping the blades in cold water to keep them from over heating.
Thank you, Ken, for the advice and info on the 3x wheel.
My T7 will be sent today (Thursday). I am eager to sharpen all the dull knives in the house!
RustyGunn,
Please consider my chisel advice (now the permanently first topic in the general Tormek part of the forum. I believe becoming fluent with a 3/4" chisel will get you off to a good start with any kind of sharpening.
Good luck and enjoy!
Keep us posted.
Ken
Thank you. I will indeed read it.
My T7 Chef's Bundle arrived today. I got a chance to open the box this evening and took a look at the manual and other paperwork.
I had to get back to work, so I didn't remove the machine from the box.
I figure tomorrow I will have more time to read the manual and check out the T7.
Your pleasure with your new Tormek will increase as your skill increases.
Enjoy, and keep us posted!
Ken
Quote from: RustyGunn on May 11, 2016, 09:41:49 AM
My T7 Chef's Bundle arrived today. I got a chance to open the box this evening and took a look at the manual and other paperwork.
I had to get back to work, so I didn't remove the machine from the box.
Send it back and get a T-8.
Herman,
Even if the T-8 has several benefits, the T-7 was sold the last month for a better price and is still a very good machine.
I know that for many new users the discount on the T-7 made them to the purchase knowing the T-8 would be a bit more expensive.
Best,
Stig
The ideal Tormek model?
For me, the ideal Tormek would be the like new old square frame Supergrind at an estate sale for fifty dollars. :)
Since my ideal probably doesn't exist, the choice is probably between a T 7 and a T8. (Used prices are often too expensive to be good values.)
One of the commendable principles of Tormek is compatability of the latest advances and jigs with older Tormeks. In my opinion, thr most outstanding feature of the new T8 is the new SE-77 square edge jig. This jig will work with any Tormek. The new zinc housing and water trough are certainly very nice, however, I do not see them as must upgrade immediatly features.
I admit to being a Tormek junkie. I am also a thrifty person. I would probably opt for the T8 and tighten the budget in other areas. That's just me. If there were no T8, I would be quite content with my stalwart T7, and even more content with the new SE-77 jig.
For someone working with knives, I don't know how much the improvements of the T8 would translate into benefits. The hundred dollar saving could be a considerable factor, depending on one's budget. There is no wrong choice, only individual choices which may be morebeneficial.
Ken
ps If anyone thinks my judgement may be colored by the Tormek equipment I receive for long term testing, which is the standard compensation for reviews, long before this, I purchased my first T7 at full price, as well as almost all the jigs. I later purchased a second T7 when my first was stolen. I do have experience purchasing Tormek.
Quote from: Ken S on May 12, 2016, 04:11:22 PM
The ideal Tormek model?
For me, the ideal Tormek would be the like new old square frame Supergrind at an estate sale for fifty dollars. :)
Since my ideal probably doesn't exist, the choice is probably between a T 7 and a T8. (Used prices are often too expensive to be good values.)
One of the commendable principles of Tormek is compatability of the latest advances and jigs with older Tormeks. In my opinion, thr most outstanding feature of the new T8 is the new SE-77 square edge jig. This jig will work with any Tormek. The new zinc housing and water trough are certainly very nice, however, I do not see them as must upgrade immediatly features.
I admit to being a Tormek junkie. I am also a thrifty person. I would probably opt for the T8 and tighten the budget in other areas. That's just me. If there were no T8, I would be quite content with my stalwart T7, and even more content with the new SE-77 jig.
For someone working with knives, I don't know how much the improvements of the T8 would translate into benefits. The hundred dollar saving could be a considerable factor, depending on one's budget. There is no wrong choice, only individual choices which may be morebeneficial.
Ken
Ken, going to differ with you a bit, from experience.
Sub $200 on an older Tormek, with a bunch of jigs and a decent stone, is/was a good buy for me. I did upgrade to the quick release, stainless shaft. A bargain would really depend on what it came with (stuff you will use, or not).
For someone working just with knives, like a chef, and the factors of the SJ stone is also available on the T4 as well as smaller and lighter (probably stored on a shelf or under a table), IMHO, I think that might be a better buy for them. (as compared to someone like SteveBot who does all kinds of sharpening at markets and such) Again, situations vary, so would my advice.
The S2000, years back, used to have a rust issue at the base. I looked at the T7 bodies (and from memory they were powdercoated), when I looked at several used Tormeks online. The cost of a new body, drove the used Tormek price, way over retail. (most of those I looked at, were the old square frame models) The new zinc base, should eliminate that, completely. (I got lucky on mine, what I expected to be rust, was would particles and glue, from a benchtop, why I didn't have to refinish mine)
The water tray, and new lift mechanism, is an improvement for some of the older woodworkers I have known. One gave up power tools at 95, after cutting off his fingers on the table saw, but still appreciated hand tools, and wasn't in a hurry. (since passed on)
I would think in typical fashion, the frame may be upgradeable on our older models (where it has been before, but the jigs haven't always been), but wouldn't be cost effective.
Well stated, SADW.
You cover the intelligent older Tormek market with more experience and depth than I have. My thoughts were centered on the new market.
I agree completely with you about the new water trough being better suited for older users. That is an example my belief that individual circumstances should influence one's choices.
Ken
I wasn't aware the T8 was available already. I haven't seen or read anything on the T8 that tells me to return the T7 I just got.
Besides, it cost me 90 dollars to send it up here. It would cost about the same going back, and then another 90 to send the T8 up. 270 dollars, dude.
There is nothing wrong with this one, it arrived in good shape. I got it put together, ready to go.
It looks like I'll enjoy using it for a long time. Still waiting ob the bench grinder, and belt grinder.
Edit.. I googled the T8. Interesting benefits. But never having ever used a Tormek before these benefits mean nothing to me. I have no experience to compare it to.
I'll keep the T7, it will serve my purposes just fine.
Rustygunn,
I have been a happy camper with the T7 for eight years. Enjoy, it's a great machine. Lots of guys on this forum have been happily using ancient Supergrinds for many years and will continue doing so when the T9 and T10 are out.
Enjoy your new Tormek!
Ken
Just like in mechanics, don't blame the tool. The tool is only there to make ones job easier.
Rusty, without smiley's, it is hard to tell if Herman is being serious, or joking. I also expect he didn't realize what it cost to get to you. (verses some of the "free shipping" that some people offer, that in reality is in our cost). If you could walk in and out of a store and get the "new model" for not much different, I, as well as others, would be tempted.
That said, the new model, isn't out yet. (next month) and with the possible jig exception (77 instead of 76), it shouldn't be a factor that affects you. That is practice. Keep what you got, and get to learning.
Solid advice, SADW' get to learning.
Ken
Thanks for the encouragement, guys. I'm sure I will enjoy it, and put it to good use, even if it don't help with grinding bevels on knife blades.
I'm sure that either the T-7 or the T-8 is a good choice.
It's just that for the small extra amount, the T-8 has a lot of new and useful features that make the extra cost worth it.
Of course, this is a personal decision. This is just my opinion.
Thank you for sharing your views Herman. The T8, being newer, would be a fine choice.
Rustygunn,
Don't give up on your Tormek grinding knife bevels. Check out my posts on using Norton 3x grinding wheels (used wet) on your Tormek. They are available in eighty and forty six grit. I used them to reshape a high speed steel turning gouge and for tests using metal lathe bits. You should have no thouble grinding knife bevels. Then, switch back to your regular Tormek SG-250 grinding wheel to finish the job. No complaints from me using my T7 for his kind of work. The eight inch diameter wheels work fine on the T7, just like a regular wheel worn down that much.
One Norton 3x eight inch grinding wheel, either grit plus a short piece or schedule eighty plastic pipe and some twelve millimeter bore fender washers will get you going. Total cost arouns $60 US.
Ken
Post again if you can't locate my article describing this.
Ken
Ken... The plastic tube and washers are for the center hole, so the 3x can fit the T7 shaft, rigjt?
I'll do this once I get around to buying a 3x wheel. This proceedure is probably the one I may end up using. Thanks for this recommendation.
BTW... I find myself quite busy with work, such that I haven't even ran the T7 yet. I am also having eye surgury in about ten days. I most likely will get to the T7 after that.
Besides, I'm still waiting on othet stuff before I can even begin.
Thank you to everyone for the advice, encouragement, and such. This has been very helpful to me. I feel confident I can do this now.
Quote from: Ken S on May 13, 2016, 08:24:01 AM
One Norton 3x eight inch grinding wheel, either grit plus a short piece or schedule eighty plastic pipe and some twelve millimeter bore fender washers will get you going. Total cost arouns $60 US.
A video showing the construction of one of these adapter kits would be very helpful.
Can someone please post a link here to Ken's post describing the construction?
I think this would be a dandy way to reshape a lawn mower blade that's seen better days. Most people, pros included, mow with extremely dull and even damaged blades. Lawns mowed with sharp blades require less fertilizer and water. Hence they are greener in both senses of the word!
Currently I reshape mine on the dry grinder, which makes a lot of dust that later has to be cleaned up.
Herman, I totally agree; this needs a video. My digital camera is capable of doing video, as is my ipad. The problem is the Neanderthal operator. I must work on this. The kenjig concept needs a video, also.
I am looking for my original 3X document. With two grandchildren, time on the desktop computer is usually scarce.
Ken
We're rootin' for ya, Ken.
Patience is easy.
http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2527.msg13054#msg13054
Excellent work (again), Eldon!
That topic is actually later than the original, and has thoughts which more prove more useful than the original. Rustygunn, I suggest you study both.
I finally gained access to my main computer. (My grandson is asleep. :) )
Here is the original article:
Expanding the Scope of the Tormek
The Tormek is not a static machine. The original Tormek used a natural stone of approximately 220 grit. Over a decade would pass before the leather honing wheel was added. The grinding wheel switched from being a natural stone to a man made stone, which allowed the concept of the stone grader to work. Now the Tormek had both 220 and 1000 grit capabilities plus the leather honing wheel.
Later the blackstone and 4000 grit Japanese stone were added, making the Tormek capable of working with harder steels and making very polished edges possible.
The BGM-100 was introduced, allowing those who had only a dry grinder to have the flexibility of the Tormek jigs. This allowed faster reshaping of tools. However, this came at a cost. The dry grinder, while fast, does not provide the Tormek protection against overheating the tools. Nor does it operate free of dust and sparks.
I searched for a way to combine the speed of the dry grinder with the cool reliablilty of the Tormek. Several years ago I read a post on the Tormek forum where the poster tried mounting his cheap dry grinding wheel on the Tormek. He was impressed with the cutting speed, but apparently lost interest and moved on. This fascinated me, and the fascination remained.
I have a forty year old six inch dry grinder. Many years ago I replaced one wheel with a friable white wheel, which helped the problem of overheating tools. Eventually I replaced the second wheel with a Norton 3X 46 grit wheel. The 46 grit wheel worked like a champ when I needed to remove extensive mushrooming on two splitting wedges. I was curious to know how the 3X wheel would work on my Tormek T7. The six inch wheel is too small to work with the T7 (ten inch diameter wheel).
When I acquired a T4, I decided to renew the tests with the six inch 46 grit wheel. Although not the ideal diameter for the eight inch (200 mm) Tormek T4, the 46 grit 3X wheel removed a surprising amount of steel from a bolt and left a surprisingly smooth surface. The bolt remained quite cool during the grinding process.
The eight inch diameter Norton wheels come with bushings with the smallest being 5/8". I had previously made a business card shim for the half inch bushing on the six inch wheels. Norton would not sell me a spare 5/8" to ½" reducing bushing for safety reasons. These concerns are with high speed grinders, not the Tormek.
I found that a short piece of schedule 80 water pipe could be adapted to make a bushing. The Outside Diameter is 5/8". The original 7/16" Inside Diameter is too small for the 12mm Tormek shaft. Not having a 12mm drill bit, I used a 31/64" drill bit in my drill press and reamed out the inside diameter. This is easily accurate enough for coarse grinding.
I thought the 46 grit wheel might be too coarse to be practical with the Tormek. My next step was to purchase a Norton 3X eight inch diameter 80 grit wheel in the harder K grade. My first test was to grind away at a metal lathe tool bit. The bit is at least High Speed Steel and designed to be hard enough to cut steel. In a five minute timed grind, the 80 grit wheel removed a surprising amount of steel. At this point, I knew I was onto something.
My second test was to measure the amount of steel removed from the side of the lathe tool bits. (I had ordered an eight inch diameter 3X 46 grit wheel for the test.)
I made sure that both bits were the same steel. I ran three timed tests (for one minute). The previous test was run with the universal support bar in the horizontal position (trailing) position. This test was run with the universal support bar in the more agressive vertical position. I ground the bit surface paralled to the face of the grinding wheel and the full one inch width of the wheel for one minute. I tested both the 46 and 80 grit wheels this way. I also tested the Tormek SG-200 wheel graded coarse with the bit across one inch of the width of the wheel. I measured all ground surfaces with a micrometer, averaging several readings to determine how much steel had been removed by each grinding wheel in the same one minute. The coarser wheels showed slightly more metal ground away, however, the test time was too short to be a good indicator. The weak link was my fingers.
I switched to placing the metal lathe tool bits into the SE-76 and adjusting the jig and support bar to procuce a thirty degree bevel. I used identical bits and ran the tests for five minutes.
The 80 grit Norton wheel ground a bevel almost the entire thickness of the 5/16" (8mm) bit in five minutes. The 46 grit wheel ground the same bevel depth in four minutes.
The Tormek SG-200 grinding wheel ground a bevel between half and two thirds of the tool bit thickness in the alloted five minutes. The coarser Norton wheels cut noticeably faster, although the Tormek wheel put in a surprisingly good performance.
The Tormek wheel's ground finish was visually smoother than the coarser wheels, but, again, the difference was less than expected.
I repeated the same tests with the Tormek SG-250 and SB-250 grinding wheels on the T7. The SG-250 produced a bevel essentially identical to the SG-200 in cut depth and smoothness. This was not surprising, as the surface feet per minute is very close with the two sizes.
The bevel produced by the SB-250 was quite smooth, although it was the most shallow of any of the wheels tested. It was perhaps half the thickness of the tool bit. This was surprising, as the black stone is designed for hard steel. I am postponing any conclusions about the SB wheel until I do further tests.
Conclusions:
The two Norton coarser wheels were noticeably faster cutting than the standard Tormek wheel. However, the difference was not as much as I might have expected. I believe one or both of these coarser wheels would be a nice backup for a sharpening job involving removing a lot of metal from high speed steel (such as nicked planer blades). If one did a lot of reshaping of turning tools, I would suggest including a coarser wheel in the stable. I would use it before the standard Tormek wheel and finish with the SG wheel for a smoother finish.
I believe the "Tormek advantage" from wet grinding with coarser wheels would prevent me from adapting my dry grinder to use the Tormek jigs. If I did not already own a Tormek, it would be a question of money. I still think I would favor the Tormek option.
In working with the T4, I have found it to be a stalwart. I am accostumed to the larger T7 wheel, although I find myself adapting easily to the slightly smaller T4 wheel. The T4 seems to cut as quickly as the T7. I have also not noticed much heat retained. I do not think any more about the "thirty minute" limit.
I have found the SG wheel works well with resharpening high speed steel drill bits. If I was sharpening high speed steel on a very regular basis, I would consider the black wheel (SB-250). My test with it is inconclusive at this point.
Pretty extensive testing, more than I might have done. Thanks for sharing it.
Update... Almost a year has gone by it seems. I finally worked on a few blades the past two weeks, with very pleasing results.
I made two small neck knives, with 1.75" blades, of a sheepsfoot design. My first blade was to prove to me the concept was sound. It is. Slow, but doable.
The second blade was to perfect the design and and to set up a custom jig. I intend to combine two Tormek jigs to create one that I want. This will be a project soon.
Then I will make knives to sell.
The only issue I have is the very slow hollow grinding of the blade bevel. To speed up the process I first flat grind the blade, then hollow that out on the T-7. The end results are impressive. I am very pleased with the T-7. I have a few pics on this cell phone, but I don't know how to post pics here. More to come. Slowly, but surely.
We look forward to your future posts. Good luck with this project.
Ken
Thank you.
BTW I've used the T-7 to sharpen some knives and it works awesome. Blades come out sharp! I highly recommend a Tormek, they work very well.
Lets see if this works. My first photo upload. This blade is a sheepsfoot style simply because its an easy knife to make. The bevel is an easy one to make for a newbie.
The blade profile was cut out with a Dremel cut-off wheel and ground on a 1x30 belt sander to shape. The bevel was then flat ground, then hollowed out on the T-7.
I was able to combine the Scissor jig and a knife jig into a new-to-me jig, assuming Tormek makes one I haven't seen. I used two U-bolts to attach the knife jig via four holes drilled in the scissor jig.
This modification does not destroy either jig, except I had to remove the plastic sheeti g on the back of the scissor jig (I saved it, and can reglue it back on later). Both can still be used as intended once it it dismantled. I am using this modified jig to put the hollow bevel on a kiridadhi blade. The results are outstanding. I am very pleased with how this is coming along.
I was not able to post a pic, but will when I can.
Here is a picture of the modified jig and blade.
Rusty,
That is a very clever modification of the knife jig! I have thought of trying to remove the radius from the adjustable stop, however, your idea never occurred to me. Kudos for imaginative thinking!
Ken
Thank you Ken. My initial thinking on this is to reduce the long term wear on the corner/edge due to the jig allowing the blade to "rotate" downwards at the edges. I didn't want to have to re-square the stone too often.
This jig greatly reduces this, and holds the blade level with the stone.
The problem that arises is that this jig wants to stick/stop due to the oblong hole drilled through the scissor jig plate. This oblong hole is a locking device when tightening the clamp screw.
Had the hole been round then the modified jig could slide back and forth easily.
Its not much of an issue though. I get outstanding hollow grinds. I will share a pic of the kiridashi blade later. Its almost done.
My kiridashi neck knife with a hollow ground bevel done on the T-7. This blade now needs to be sanded on it's surface, followed by rounding out the profile edges.
Yes, a small knife can be made using a T-7. It just takes time. About five hours I think, to grind out the bevel. A bit long, but outstanding results.