Tormek Community Forum

In the Shop => General Tormek Questions => Topic started by: Erich Wise on April 20, 2016, 12:51:27 AM

Title: BGM-100 mounted to 8" bench grinder, can I use the truing tool?
Post by: Erich Wise on April 20, 2016, 12:51:27 AM
Hello,

So I've got a Metabo DS-200 8" bench grinder at work. I bought the BGM-100 for it. I was going to get the tool rest and the Geiger truing tool, but the Tormek truing tool is over the usable size for the Geiger. So I am curious, can I use the truing tool from Tormek to true up the grinding wheels on this bench grinder?

I really like the idea of Geiger's kit for truing up the grinder, but I cant think of a good solution that includes the BGM-100.

Thanks for your time and thoughts.
Title: Re: BGM-100 mounted to 8" bench grinder, can I use the truing tool?
Post by: Ken S on April 20, 2016, 02:56:42 AM
I used to use a single point diamond with my dry grinder. Recently I switched to an inexpensive T dresser. The BGM was designed for preliminary grinding. Others may have different thoughts.

Ken
Title: Re: BGM-100 mounted to 8" bench grinder, can I use the truing tool?
Post by: Jan on April 20, 2016, 09:07:30 AM
Erich, it is not recommend to use the Tormek Truing and Dressing Tool on a bench grinder.

Jan
Title: Re: BGM-100 mounted to 8" bench grinder, can I use the truing tool?
Post by: Ken S on April 20, 2016, 06:04:03 PM
I agree with Jan. I would get an inexpensive diamond T dresser.

Ken
Title: Re: BGM-100 mounted to 8" bench grinder, can I use the truing tool?
Post by: Erich Wise on April 20, 2016, 08:32:50 PM
Thank you for your reply!

I thought that would be the case. I do want to use something other then the hand held "T" dresser as they don't make the wheel perfectly round. But then again, after reading up on CBN wheels, I might just replace the wheels in the shop with those and be done with it.

Thanks!
Title: Re: BGM-100 mounted to 8" bench grinder, can I use the truing tool?
Post by: Ken S on April 20, 2016, 10:19:03 PM
Erich,

What does Metabo, the manufacturer, recommend? Dressing the wheel for a BGM-100 should be the same as dressing the wheel for regular use as a dry grinder.

Ken
Title: Re: BGM-100 mounted to 8" bench grinder, can I use the truing tool?
Post by: Erich Wise on April 21, 2016, 10:52:12 PM
It is the same, except Tormek has a very generous tool rest size. Because of this, if using the Geiger dressing and trueing tool, the rest is a bit too large. Otherwise yes, you are correct, it is the same.
Title: Re: BGM-100 mounted to 8" bench grinder, can I use the truing tool?
Post by: Ken S on April 22, 2016, 04:27:47 AM
Erich,

I am puzzled. Keep in mind that I have never seen a Metabo grinder or a Geiger dressing and truing tool. That said, the universal support and platform of the BGM-100 are very easily removed and should not be in the way when you are truing the wheel.  Am I missing something?

Ken
Title: Re: BGM-100 mounted to 8" bench grinder, can I use the truing tool?
Post by: Erich Wise on April 22, 2016, 10:55:52 PM
Yes, the Geiger truing tool uses the rest as a guide. using just the bar would make it dangerous and also be useless as the angle wouldn't be constant. Though it is a non issue as I will be getting CBN wheels. My work is tied to the State and CBN wheel represent a better value to tax payers in the long run.
Title: Re: BGM-100 mounted to 8" bench grinder, can I use the truing tool?
Post by: Ken S on April 22, 2016, 11:15:16 PM
Erich,

Please keep us posted with your thoughts and observations with the CBN wheels. Although we practice the ancient work of sharpening, we are forward looking.

Ken
Title: Re: BGM-100 mounted to 8" bench grinder, can I use the truing tool?
Post by: SharpenADullWitt on April 23, 2016, 05:34:16 PM
Well I think things have pretty well been covered.

For future reference, a lot of the out of round, IMHE can be attributed to lower quality grinders, or bearings going bad and the shafts wobbling.
Also, the Tormek sells replacement diamond tips for their grader.  That tells me where the problem would be, would be the adhesive or mounting of the diamond, not the hardness of the diamond against the abrasive itself.
Title: Re: BGM-100 mounted to 8" bench grinder, can I use the truing tool?
Post by: Ken S on April 24, 2016, 10:05:41 AM
I agree with your statement about causes for out of roundness.

With the diamond "problem", I'm not sure. Diamonds do wear. I like my DMT flat plate. It does a nice job flattening water and India stones. It will flatten silicon carbide stones, too, but not without taking heavy casualties.  Mine took a lot of premature wear. If I used it more often, I would order a replacement.

At one point, I thought I had accidentally destroyed the diamond on my TT-50 by allowing it to run dry. I had also neglected to lock the jig onto the universal support, something I won't do again! It made a terrible noise and the wheel looked ugly. I even ordered a new TT-50. A day later, thinking I had nothing to lose, I calmly tried using the TT-50. It worked fine.

Based on my own experience, I believe operator error and using the harder blackstone can contribute to the wear of the diamond. I don'd see this as a problem, just part of the nature of the beast.

Ken
Title: Re: BGM-100 mounted to 8" bench grinder, can I use the truing tool?
Post by: SharpenADullWitt on April 26, 2016, 05:04:35 PM
I agree that it will wears.  My thoughts are more that the additional heat and centrifugal force of the faster wheel, will transfer the heat to the physical/replaceable mounting of the stone, breaking it first. (where diamond grinder sharpeners, have the diamonds faced on a forged, not replaceable part)
I think the TT-50 is engineered towards the Tormek, not a speed grinder.
Title: Re: BGM-100 mounted to 8" bench grinder, can I use the truing tool?
Post by: Ken S on April 26, 2016, 11:06:58 PM
SADW,

I have no idea if the TT-50 will work with a higher speed dry grinder. Personally, I think using a Norton 3X wheel (wet) with a Tormek is a better choice than using the BGM-100 unless someone does not have a Tormek. A simple twelve dollar dressing stick will keep the wheel in good condition. I have posted this procedure.

I found the 3X wheels reshaped very well for low cost. In hindsight, I wish I had used an 80 grit CBN wheel wet with the Tormek. I would do that if I did a lot of heavy reshaping.

Ken
Title: Re: BGM-100 mounted to 8" bench grinder, can I use the truing tool?
Post by: Erich Wise on April 27, 2016, 10:52:37 PM
Ken,

You think getting an 80 grit CBN wheel and using it on the Tormek is a reasonable grinding and shaping method? Or were you just saying that it would be a better option then the 3X wheels?
Title: Re: BGM-100 mounted to 8" bench grinder, can I use the truing tool?
Post by: Ken S on April 28, 2016, 12:24:32 AM
Erich,

I hesitate to make recommendations with CBN wheels for several reasons. First of all, I have never used one. Second, I have been actively researching them, and not found very much solid information, especially with grit choices. A distant third reason is that CBN wheels are not in the everyday Tormek technique at this point.

I found a sawmillcreek thread with 31 replies. Most of the thoughts were opinions, rather than observations.

I used 46 and 80 grit Norton 3X wheels in my experiments. I was specifically looking for a more efficient reshaping method with my Tormek. I used both wheels wet, which I am convinced is the best method with the Tormek. (no dust or sparks. also dead cool) The 46 grit seems about 25% faster than the 80 grit. The 80 was plenty fast for me and slightly more controlled. If I was starting again, I would purchase only the 80 grit. Both of these wheels were too coarse for everyday resharpening.

If you choice is 80 or 180, my gut feeling would lean toward the 180. If you have other grit choices and want to use it primarily for sharpening, I would opt for a 600 or 360. Again, I have not found much good testing on grits.

Whichever way you go, be sure the wheel is well suited to the Tormek's 12mm shaft.

With Tormek's EZYlock shaft, there is no excuse for having a rust problem with a CBN wheel. I routinely remove my wheel to dry after a sharpening session.

One supplier has supposedly sold thousands of CBN wheels to Tormek users. They are apparently quite shy about sharing their experiences.

In my opinion, CBN or diamond wheels will be part of the Tormek lineup in the near future. It is already the wheel for the highly specialized T2. I suspect it will be an optional wheel, like the SB or SJ. Just my opinion.

You will be one of the pioneers. Please share your experiences.

Ken

Title: Re: BGM-100 mounted to 8" bench grinder, can I use the truing tool?
Post by: Erich Wise on April 29, 2016, 12:24:22 AM
Ken,

I definitely understand your hesitation.

I find it very interesting that you used the 3X wheels on your Tormek. Thank you for sharing your experiences. I definitely think wet grinding is the way to go. The idea of putting CBN on the Tormek is a great idea if it works, I'd love for Tormek to put a CBN option with their stuff. Either way, right now I'll be putting CBN in the shop on dry grinders at work, but when the new Tormek comes out I'll be buying that for my personal sharpening system.

If I do get a CBN for the Tormek, I'll definitely do reviews and share all experiences.

Thanks

Title: Re: BGM-100 mounted to 8" bench grinder, can I use the truing tool?
Post by: Ken S on April 29, 2016, 03:20:32 AM
Erich,

With all the posts about grinding wheels, I believe it is important to remember the original concept of the Tormek. In an era when most of us were burning edges with fast dry grinders with gray wheels and struggling eith oilstones, Torgny Jansson invented a wet grinder which was cool running and free of dust and sparks. This was soon followed by a remarkable selection of jigs for precise grinding. A stone grader offered double duty for the grinding wheel. This offered versatility and economy. One very generously sized wheel instead of two smaller wheels. The basic machine could grind, hone and polish. This was truly remarkable.

In just the seven years I have been a Tormek user, the improvements have been notable. These improvements are ongoing. Very soon we will have a replacement for the venerable T7. In the near future, I expect to see changes in Tormek's grinding wheels. I believe most of today's jigs will be machined to tighter tolerances with the new zink casting technology as well as expanded in range. Grinding a controlled camber on smoothing and jointer planes seems to have just arrived as well as controlled squareness tweaking on chisels. I suspect composite will supercede leather for the honing wheel.

I also believe CBN wheels will continue evolving. The CBN may last almost forever. The CBN may outlast the present technology and we may end up replacing only half worn wheels. During this advanced period, many Supergrinds and "old" T7s will be happily chugging along.

We live in interesting times. ( I vaguely remember that being a Chonese curse..... :(

Ken
Title: Re: BGM-100 mounted to 8" bench grinder, can I use the truing tool?
Post by: Rob on April 29, 2016, 11:07:52 AM
I've not read this entire thread so apologies if I've missed anything but just yesterday my SB had got too ridged from gouge grinds to carry on so I was faced with the torture of stopping turning to redress the surface.  On opening my bits draw in my sharpening station, I spotted the cheap ten buck diamond T dresser and thought to myself...would it work???

So I shimmied the USB to within 1mm of the wheel and then by eye held the T bar square on to the wheel with plenty of pressure on its top so the wheel didn't push it up (bar on the side not the top).

It worked an absolute treat, redressed the stone in about 20 seconds.  Brilliant shortcut for a wheel restored to generic use.  I don't think I'd do that for my finest Lie Neilsen block plane blade but for quick and dirty, it was fabulous.

That's my quick tip for the day done :-)
Title: Re: BGM-100 mounted to 8" bench grinder, can I use the truing tool?
Post by: Ken S on April 29, 2016, 04:37:42 PM
Great idea, Rob.

Ken