Its Bob The Knife Grinder again,
I have seen on google a wheel that will fit the T7 and is advertised as so, that is a Cubic Boron Nitride ( C.B.N. ) coated wheel.
I have experience of C.B.N. The coating does not last long, although I use it on a Very fast machine. Does anyone know how long it will last on the T7 with it being a much slower grind.? Remembering that this is an electro plated COATING of millimetres as opposed to a full wheel of grindstone as in the SG250 wheel.
Ken? anybody?
How long do you think it will last, has anyone used a C.B.N. wheel on the T7.
Please don't say ( How long is a bit of string )
Because I will tell you the answer to that long asked question.
Which I will on my next forum post.
HaHa.
You are waiting now with baited breath!!!
I really do have the answer to that old adage of the string.
The first one to reply to this post with an informative answer to my C.B.N. T7 wheel, will get the solution to the conundrum of the string length.
Ken, You are good at trigonometry. Maybe you know the answer to the string question??? !!!
I was curious about the same thing. At this point, Tormek does not endorse CBN wheels. I have no personal experience with them, so can not really write about them. It does seem an interesting new technology. I believe grinding technology will change dramatically in the next decade or two. I have already seem changes. When I began sharpening as an adult in the early seventies, the most common choices were a six inch high speed dry grinder or oil stones. Water stones were just starting to become popular as were half speed grinders. Sharpening was a lot more work, and blued tools were common.
I believe that Tormek will continue evolving. I have seen substantial changed from tormek even since I bought my first unit in 2009. I look forward to seeing continuing developments in the scope of the Tormek.
Ken
I would echo that. I think Tormek have got the balance between innovating to take advantage of newer ideas and technology and keeping their customers existing investments protected by remaining compatible just right.
There is an adjustable speed grinder that comes with that wheel, or a multitool belt grinder, that makes the Tormek look inexpensive. Personally, I think I would like to try the CBN AND the SJ wheel in comparison, I would think the SJ wheel would do pretty much the same for a better cost since it isn't just a coating.
ref. to sharpenadulwitts response,
For small wheels it costs around £174.
On a wheel as large as the T7 I would think it will be around £ 400 or more.
Unless you have more info it is a step I would not want to make without more info on cost.
Bob
Well, it looks like Ken was the first to reply.
So here is the answer to that long asked quetion of, " How long is a bit of string "
The answer as promised is --- ---------- Twice as long as it is from the beginning to the MIDDLE.
Haha
Happy days.
Bob
Hi,
Tormek has many different jigs for many different tools so we need a stone that can handle anything from small delicate woodcarving tool to tools with a larger surface with harder metal.
A CBN wheel or a Diamond wheel have one specific grit and our stones from 220 to 1000 grit plus the Japanese stone at 4000 grit.
We believe that our stones are the best solution for the wider range of tools and jigs.
Regards,
Stig
Stig makes a very good point. One of the hallmarks of Tormek philosophy has been providing its users with as much versatility as practical at a reasonable cost. This idea goes way back. Even the SB and SJ grinding wheels are fairly recent additions. The traditional Tormek gave the owner the ability to sharpen many tools with just one stone (graded coarse and fine), a leather honing wheel with honing compound, and a few jigs. This has served many users very well for decades.
The traditional Tormek SG grinding wheel, although not specifically designed for high speed steel, does a credible job of resharpening HSS tools and a good job of sharpening them. Admittedly it is no speedster with major reshaping, however, the work is possible.
I believe the DBS-22 is a watershed product. It allows the user to sharpen drill bits going far and beyond a basic sharp drill point. It is amazingly versatile and quite well made. All this excellence comes at a price. It is expensive for the average homeowner user. By industrial standards it is not expensive. However, I believe it is priced beyond the reach of the typical home user.
Tormek AB, like any company, must consider price and demand points to remain in business. If twenty knife and square edge jigs are sold for every jig like the DBS-22, Tormek would not last long overspecializing. Several years ago, a forum member posted the desire to have Tormek sell an 8000 grit grinding wheel. I am sure this would be possible. However, looking at the price spread between 4000 and 8000 grit waterstones, and the cost of the SJ 4000 grit grinding wheel, I cannot see enough consumer demand to warrant the production cost.
Grinding technology is evolving. CBN wheels are very recent, especially those compatable with the Tormek. Stig is quite correct that these wheels are single grit. I have seen them in 80 and 180 grits. Purchasing both would cost almost the cost of a new T7. Within their limited scope, they do offer some benefits. I can see where they might excel at sharpening planar blades with the Tormek. Even a Tormek junkie like me would have to think long and hard before investing that kind of money. If I had a business which included sharpening a lot of planar and jointer blades, I would certainly obtain at least one CBN grinding wheel. Not having to refresh or dress the grinding wheel during the middle of grinding planar blades seems a notable advantage.
They might be very efficient for reshaping turning tools. They are the same width as the T4 wheels (1 ½" or 40mm). As Rob noted, that is a constraint compared with the T7 wheels at 2" or 50mm. Again, if I had a sharpening business where I was reshaping many turning tools, a CBN wheel might be a good investment. With the new EZYlock shaft, switching wheels for a final finer cut is easy to do. However, spending that much money to reshape perhaps four to six turning tools at most hardly seems cost efficient.
I believe the Tormek is a very versatile tool in its present configuration. I also believe it is capable of much more versatility. Ten years ago, who would have thought of sharpening four facet drill bits with a Tormek? Six years ago, we were still sharpening small knives handheld. Now we have a choice of the Tormek small knife tool or Herman's jig. We are presently seeing more potential than knives and machetes with Herman's jig. Both are useful with slightly different focus points. Evolution continues.
I believe this question of CBN wheels is an example of the capabilities of the Tormek going beyond the scope of accessories which are profitable to market in reasonable quantities. I am pleased that we have such a well designed and built machine on which to base this growth.
Ken
I've been rather sheltered from real life while all this family illness has been going on....CBN...what's the deal with these wheels then? They sound very hard and very abrasive from your description Ken.
Sorry I can not offer much help, Rob. I am still in the learning stage about CBN. I gather it is slightly less hard than diamond and perhaps less brittle. Either the 80 or 180 single grit wheels would be more coarse than the Tormek SG wheel.
Ken
OK thanks Ken :-)
Much safer. They won't crack, explode or chip. Excellent for cut-off wheels.
Cleaner. No stone dust. (A clean water trough)
Higher thermal conductivity. ~55% better than traditional wheels.
Tools remain cool after grinding. No more blue blades. Slow speed grinding not necessary.
No change in wheel diameter over life of wheel.
Consistent abrasive across the surface of the wheel. Higher precision grinding.
Surface stays flat.
Perfectly flat side wheel grinding.
Can be plated onto almost any shaped wheel. Thin cup wheels for example.
No down time for dressing/conditioning.
Fast material removal of HSS.
Reduced vibration. No balancing required for high speed cutting.
Reduced time spent grinding. Saves labor costs. Increased production.
Almost no sparking.
4X harder than AO. Almost as hard as diamond.
Doesn't clog or glaze like regular wheels when used on HSS, but may clog with soft steel.
Does not react chemically with steel like diamond wheels do.
Longevity. 20% - 50% cost reduction over regular wheels.
Won't break if dropped.
Very light pressure is needed when grinding.
Not effected by solvents.
For Tormek:
http://www.cwsonline.com.au/shop/item/woodcut-cbn-wheel-250mm-x-40mm-x-180g
Watch. No sparks!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urM-5P8_t4g
They look impressive "IF" we believe all the hyperbole on the website. Do we? Has anyone used one? Do they really NEVER go off flat even with repeated grinding of bowl gouges made from HSS. I appreciate the CBN is harder than the HSS but even so....diamond stones get dished eventually over time don't they?
So my next question would be myth versus reality based on folks real experience. If they stand up to the brochure then they certainly sound amazing. Life experience to date would make me a tad suspicious of such "perfection" claims. Anyone used them?
I have not used one, but it seems it is true, and that they last for years.
They are made by applying a single layer of abrasive with electroless nickel plating (very tough stuff) on super hard steel. Steel won't dish. For example, they use them for "precision finish grinding of hardened gears after heat treat".
"Holding profile tolerances of 0.0001" to 0.0002" (one to two ten-thousandths of an inch) is routine
for our wheels, and we have produced profile tolerances of 0.00005" (50 millionths of an inch) for some aircraft gear
applications,"
http://www.gleason.com/uploads//PlatingFacArticle_pdf_english.pdf
"There are two types. One is a mix of abrasive and a bonding agent, that is applied to an aluminum hub in a layer that is about 3/16 inch thick. The other type is a machined steel hub with the abrasive material electroplated to the surface of the wheel."
"With the matrix bond type, there is tiny wear factor involved as the matrix is not as hard as the abrasive materials. They do develop a tiny amount of run out over a year or so of heavy use."
"Electroplated wheels never change size or shape"
Reed's Woodworking:
http://www.robohippy.net/featured-article/
Excellent articles, Grepper. Thanks for posting them.
Ken
Wow! Fast! Amazing. CNC CBN machining:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XIZQFMYUzk
While you are at it, check out this series of 9 videos. More show up on the right as you watch each one. Really cool and impressive stuff!:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HBLocw7GyE
I can see where one of these wheels might be a useful adjunct for some Tormek users. CBN seems more suited to high speed steel than "regular" high carbon steel.
The EZYlock shaft has made using multiple grinding wheels time efficient. Whether or not using multiple wheels is cost efficient depends on the kind and volume of work involved. In my case, mostly chisels, planes and knives, the CBN wheels do not seemto be cost efficient. If I had a sharpening business involving alot of harder steel, or a large tool budget, I would acquire at least one. If I did a lot of turning, I would seriously consider one.
In any case, it is nice to know that we have that option either now or in the future.
Ken
it certainly looks an interesting technology. I predict as it passes from niche, premium, novelty into general circulation, it's price will drop through the floor and in 5 years from now be significantly more common. It does look like there are many advantages.
Weird that the wheel designed for mounting on a Tormek T7 is only 40 mm wide instead of 50 mm.
Also, what's the need for the Tormek water trough and low speed? Why not mount an 8-inch wheel on a high speed grinder, add a BGM-100, and off you go?
Rob, this is an alternative to your Sorby!
This is just a guess. I suspect the narrower grinding wheels are really designed to stay balanced with much higher motor speeds. Actually, for the two T4 fans on the forum, 40mm represents a same size replacement.
For reshaping high speed turning tools, I would think the CBN wheels would work quite well. A turning club could easily split the cost. The set up could be used wet or dry. The coarse grit would give an agressive cut, tempered by the Tormek's slow speed for control. That seems a very civilized way to work.
The EZYlock shaft allow a quick change to the SG wheel for sharpening any carbon steel turning tools or a final smoothing cut, thus giving the user the best of both worlds.
Playing the devil's advocate, a Tormek T4 is not much more than a cheap eight inch grinder and a BGM-100. In fact, the eight inch CBN wheels are considerably less expensive the tens and the T4 is better built than most grinders. CBN eight inch wheels are available with 12mm holes for the T4. They will also work with the T7 as well as any wheel worn down to eight inches. (Yes, they are only 40mm wide instead of 50mm, however, thatis still wider than regular dry grinder wheels.) The T4 has plenty of pep to reshape a turning tool with a coarse grinding wheel. In fact, my initial tests found that the T4 and T7 have essentially equal cutting speed with high speed steel and the SG wheel.
Ken
Ken
Herman, if you check around the 'Net you will see folks are using exactly the setup you describe. They say it sharpens very fast, runs hotter than the Tormek but not too hot to hold in your hand.
One dude complained that his CBN wheel had slightly dished so he obviously had an older type matrix composite wheel rather than a plated steel wheel.
One place said the CBN wheels work just fine on the Tormek just slower, so it is a perfectly acceptable option especially if you have a Tormek and not a bench grinder.
You would not need the water trough, but it wouldn't hurt and while there is no stone dust from the wheel it would catch steel dust from the blade which is sort of nasty stuff in it's own right.
I like the idea of using a CBN wheel wet. Very Tormek cool, and it catches all themetal grindings. Looking at what all sticks to the magnet in the water trough, there is plenty of stuff I would prefer not fly around. A coarse wheel on a Tormek should give an acceptable speed of grinding.
When I tested Norton 3X 46 and 80 grit wheels on the Tormek, I was very pleased with the cutting speed.
Ken
Grepper, Yoshio Odate designed dished diamond plates for sharpening plane blades with camber. You dude friend may have come up with a solution for matching the sweep of a gouge or the camber of a plane blade. With nine CBN wheels with differing amounts of hollow, he would have a set of gouge plates! :)
Ken
Quote from: Herman Trivilino on June 12, 2015, 02:11:19 AM
Weird that the wheel designed for mounting on a Tormek T7 is only 40 mm wide instead of 50 mm.
Also, what's the need for the Tormek water trough and low speed? Why not mount an 8-inch wheel on a high speed grinder, add a BGM-100, and off you go?
Rob, this is an alternative to your Sorby!
Yes the thought had occurred to me. But from a logical standpoint I'm also struggling to see the sense in mounting a wheel where the technology allows cooler grinding at faster speeds to be mounted on a Tormek. Surely, the appropriate motor for such a wheel is pretty much anything which spins fast? Point being you then get a solution to the "elephant in the room" which is shaping HSS or even those tricky very hard steel planar blades dare I imagine??
The Tormek's speed is married in design wedlock to the water bath. The two are inextricably linked, the water being the solution to overheating and the speed being the solution to water being centrifugally thrown off the stone. THE big advantage (it seems to me) with this CBN tek is being able to shape which means fast steel removal which means speed is your friend. The fundamental change this tek brings is cool grinding at fast speed which is an enabler for rapid shaping of hard steels. Thus, the thing which carrys it need only satisfy one function...speed.
Now I'm not saying don't use it with a Tormek. If someone has already invested then why on earth not? I'm just saying that the primary ingredient to shape (remove steel fast) is speed. Tormek beautifully solved the problem of overheating (a side effect of speed) with their solution but the price paid is efficiency in shaping.
Now it could be that as Ken says, this low grit version (80 wasn't it) is so abrasive that a fast speed is in fact redundant and therefore the Tormek is a perfectly acceptable motor upon which to drive it. It's a pretty exciting idea for those with investment already sunk because of course it protects the investment already made in jigs. I rather suspect that due to cost it's less likely to excite new buyers though. If you combine the cost of CBN and a new Tormek you're probably heading towards a $1K aren't you?
I think if I hadn't already gone down the linisher style tool for my shaping needs of turning tools I would probably seriously investigate those wheels. Very interesting indeed.
Last question: They're made of steel right? Then the abrasive is electrolitically applied??? If they were used with the water trough in situ, would there be a rust risk to the wheel?
I've thought of another too. You cant true them right? So if there's any lack of concentricity on the Tormek shaft you're sunk because you cant calibrate the circumference of the wheel to the USB with the diamond dresser. That holds equally true for any other grinder of course. I'm guessing the Tormek shaft does run true and any wobble we (quite often) see in the stone is actually because it's stone and either not seated properly or needs truing. So maybe that's not such a biggy after all. Think I've talked myself out of that. Bottom line, putting a CNC machined wheel on a Tormek (any grinder in fact) shaft will quickly reveal if it's out of true :-)
Very good posts, Rob, worthy of thought.
I certainly see your point where speed is of the essence or when someone is starting very specialized sharpening without a lot of previous investment. While a CBN wheel with a high speed grinder would make quick work of a planer blade sharpening or reshaping a turning tool, it could also convert a chef's knife to a paring knife with equal dispatch.
That brings us back to the balance between efficiency with a few operations and versatility. A related balance, as you mention, is between cost and return in both revenue and time.
Regarding a wheel or shaft running out of true, needing to dress a conventional grinding wheel initially and from time to time is baked in the cake. The same is true when bench stones wear. CBN wheels are manufactured to high concentricity standards and are expected to maintain those standards throughout useful life.
Shaft runout iis another story. It is easily checked, either mounted or unmounted. This can be done with a simple feeler gage set up or with a relatively inexpensive dial indicator. If in doubt, this is a quick and easy job for a local machine shop.
Costwise, I agree with your figure, Rob. However, one should consider a T4 as a lower cost alternative. A new T4 and a CBN wheel would cost around $600 US, and would get the job done in a home or small business shop. I am not talking about an industrial environment. For a part time operation the T4 combo offers a lot of firepower and versatility for not much investment. And, should demand warrant adding a T7 later, the jigs will all interchange.
My family is awakening. I will write more later.
Ken
Interesting Ken. Your extra experience with the T4 keeps reminding me to consider it as I've not gone there given the T7. Also the comment you make about the knife disappearing fast. Do you believe these CBN wheels are so abrasive that even at slow grinding speeds they would remove steel very very fast, even HSS?
And your comments about shaft runout are of course spot on....I went up a blind alley on that and realised where I had been only at the end :-)
And the rust thing?
Good question. Rob. I emailed one of the manufacturers with the question about using them wet. He replied that they work either wet or dry. He made no mention of rust, although I will pursue the question further.
I found that using the 3X wheels on the T4 produced significantly faster cutting than either the SG or Sb wheels. I admit, the test was not exhaustive and there may well be other factors involved. I placed identical 3/8" (10mm) square HSS metal lathe cutting bits in the SE-76 jig and ground for five minutes with heavy pressure. With the 80 grit wheel I ground almost an entire new bevel in five minutes. I achieved this same amount of grind with the 46 grit wheel in four minutes. The SG wheel ground about two third of that in five minutes. The SB did less well. (The SB may require a lighter touch to avoid glazing. I need to do further testing and would welcome advice from SB users.)
in all cases, the finish was surprisingly smooth. I have not tested enough to be certain, but I believe using a lighter touch with all wheels would produce a more controlled and slightly smoother cut. So, to answer your question, my best guess not based on actual testing is that the coarser wheels can be controlled. A follow up with the leather honing wheel loaded with valve grinding compound might add enough polish. Following with the SG wheel and honing compound would certainly provide the polish. I would change the water in the trough before following up with the SG wheel and I only use valve grinding compound with a separate leather honing wheel.
Regarding the T4, I do not plan to sell my T7 and switch. However, in hindsight, given my actual use over the years, if I had that experience at the time of initial purchase and if the T4 had been available, I would have purchased the T4 instead of the T7. (That assumes, rightly or wrongly, that I would have had the wisdom to be realistic in my needs, which is debatable.) I do not see either choice as a bad choice. Besides, the rest of the system works with either model. I would choose the T4 for its strengths rather than to save money.
The 3X wheels do not have all the advantages of either the SG or the CBN wheels. They are one inch (25mm) wide. The largest diameter is eight inches (200mm), just like the T4 or some of the well worn T7 wheels. They do wear down, just like the Tormek wheels and will need to be trued occasionally. As they are designed for initial more coarse work, I do not see the truing issue as a major condition. I want the finer wheels to be very true, They are not a substitute for the SG. They do remove metal quickly with high speed steel in a very controllable way. they work wet, and, being ceramic, do not rust. They are also relatively inexpensive, around $50US each. They require a simple homemade adaptor to fit the 12mm Tormek shaft. I can post instructions for this if there is interest.
For the cost of a BGM-100, they provide the occasional user with a workable coarse wheel alternative with the benefits of the Tormek, water cooled grinding, spark free and dust free. While they might work dry, I am quite content to enjoy the benefits of the water cooled Tormek.
Ken
That's quite the experiment you've conducted there Ken :-) You're becoming a "freelance innovation tester" for all things of a sharpening nature. Thanks for that, interesting feedback.
http://www.d-waytools.com/tools-diamond-grinding-wheels.html
The subject of CBN on Tormek is certainly not new. Here's some discussion from 2 years ago:
http://www.woodworkforums.com/archive/index.php/t-176064.html
10" x 2" for Tormek
http://woodturnerswonders.com/products/tormek-cbn-wheel-600-grit-10-x-2-inch-1-2-inch-arbor
Interesting, Grepper.
Dave Schweitzer (D-waytools) was the guy I emailed for info. The last email question, not previously posted here was about the availability of CBN wheels for the T4. His answer is that they do sell wheels for the T4. He added that the orders need to be by telephone, as the 12mm modification is not listed on the website.
My "Popular Mechanics Home Workshop" adaptor for grinding wheels with a 5/8" smallest shaft opening is to start with a short piece of Schedule 80 plastic water pipe. (The Norton 3X wheels come this way and Norton will not sell the half inch bushing separately "for safety reason". I tried calling them.) It has a 5/8" OD (outside diameter) and a 7/17" ID (inside diameter). I put a 31/64" drill bit in the drill press and using the slowest speed drill out the pipe to that size. A 12mm drill bit would probably be better, but i don't live in Metricland. Cut the piece to length (thickness of the wheel) and slide into place.
I have not measured the run out with this set up, and I am not too worried about it. It is certainly within tolerance for coarse work. A machined steel bushing would be better. I would use one of these bushings with a CBN wheel. In the case of the Norton wheels, I was looking for an inexpensive solution for my very occasional use.
With the 600 grit CBN wheel, my question is how cost effective is it? Chicago has a saying, "vote early and often". If you true the SG wheel early and often, and lightly, it does not require much time, and you know you are true. I can see the benefit of a coarse wheel, either 3X or CBN, as Tormek does not manufacture such a product, and they do work. While the 600 grit wheel may have some advantages, it seems very close to the Tormek wheel we already have.
Quote from: Rob on June 12, 2015, 11:02:56 AM
Last question: They're made of steel right? Then the abrasive is electrolitically applied???
I think, but don't know, that the finish is applied with a more sophisticated technique than electroplating. I remember as far back as the 1990's researchers in the field of surface physics were promising great things. They are able to bond things to the surface of other things with incredible precision. The bonding is done at the molecular level and is quite strong. They promised things like ball bearings that needed no grease, stayed cool, and lasted forever. I'm still waiting to see that achievement!
Quote from: Rob on June 12, 2015, 11:09:30 AM
I've thought of another too. You cant true them right?
Right, so presumably that's done at the factory to the steel substrate before the cBN is applied. But that won't address issues arising from the universal support rod not being parallel to the axis of the grindstone rotation.
The better wheels are electo-less nickel plated with a thickness of .0001 - .003. It is more even layer and more corrosion resistant than electroplated nickel. It is however not as hard as hard chrome, but more corrosion resistant. Depending on the nickel alloy used such as boron and varying percentages of phosphorous, heat treatment after application can achieve HRC hardness of up to 70 and around 55 prior to treatment.
Combined with CBN abrasives, this produces an extremely tough and uniform distribution of abrasive on the surface of the wheel.
And check this out. You can do it yourself!
http://www.caswellplating.com/electroplating-anodizing/nickel-plating-kits/electroless-nickel-plating-kits.html
Or better yet... tougher than nickel:
http://www.caswellplating.com/cobalt-standard-plating-kit-10-pint.html
Quote from: grepper on June 12, 2015, 03:33:47 PM
10" x 2" for Tormek
http://woodturnerswonders.com/products/tormek-cbn-wheel-600-grit-10-x-2-inch-1-2-inch-arbor
The troubling thing that I notice, it is stated that it is for the Tormek yet has a 1/2" bore. The Tormek uses 12mm (0.4724").
0.500" - 0.4724" = 0.0276"
In the machining world, that is a lot of tolerance (slop). That would be something to be checked out more closely for someone actually considering that option. It may be that they actually have a 12mm bore available upon contact with them.
Eldon,
They are available with 12mm bores. (Ah ha,"bores" is the correct term.) D-way has them available in 1 1/2" width with 12mm bores for either eight or ten inch diameter.
The homemade method I described using plastic pipe seems adequate for occasional use with a 3X wheel, but I would want a more precise bore for a CBN wheel.
Ken
Quote from: kb0rvo on June 12, 2015, 08:21:51 PM
The troubling thing that I notice, it is stated that it is for the Tormek yet has a 1/2" bore.
If it really does have a 1/2" bore it won't work on the Tormek. My guess is that the 1/2" is nominal, but I would get that clarified before I ever paid for one. Also, the disclaimer concerning guard removal is not consistent with it being made for a Tormek.
I would want to check if those particular wheels are plated or matrix composite. It says on the site they are made from aluminum, not steel. Sure looks like it's plated, but I would want to verify if it is electroless nickel plating. Electroless nickel works on aluminum, but I would want to make sure.
You don't want to get matrix composite, as it will dish.
you know I've been thinking about these CBN wheels and the one use that really waves a flag at me is pairing it with the svh-320 to do tricky planar blades. The primary problem I experienced before (with the SG) was that to keep the stone cutting I had to re grade constantly. In the end, the only method of regarding that got it rough enough to really cut was a true with the diamond dresser (you know how rough that makes the wheel). That would then cut my ultra hard Startrite knives for a minute or so. Of course what then happens with the constant need to regrade to bring back the cutting of the wheel, the wheel diameter is reduced which throws out the precision settings of the jig. The efficacy of the planar jig is critically dependent on very fine settings.
With the CBN wheels they should provide two solutions to the challenge: 1) they don't wear down at all and 2) they're more abrasive and should therefore cut better than the standard approach.
Rob, you bring up an interesting issue. While the planer jig seems well designed, several posters, including you, have grumbled about poor sharpening with it. I can't imagine Tormek going through the expense of designing and marketing a jig without first making sure it worked well. So, what is the missing link?
This returns me to my long spoken grumble about the lack of training material. I am not certain, but I believe the planer jig was designed before the SB wheel. Surely the engineers would not have approved the jig unless they were able to sharpen planer blades in a reasonable time. There must be a missing piece in using the jig that we do not know.
Tormek, would you please let us know the missing piece of using the planer jig efficiently.
Ken
It's exotic alloys Ken. Some planar knives are simply harder than others....much harder in fact. Some I believe are even a laminated type steel more akin to expensive Japanese techniques.
The softer ones seem to work with the Tormek setup but not the harder ones.
Ken as you know better than me, new alloys are being used for many of the woodworking tools that we sharpen with the Tormek. Jigs designed in prior decades may not work as well as designed with some of these new harder alloys.
Rob, you keep adding these items to your sharpening arsenal. You have a premier set up and could easily go into the sharpening business. One of the things that will help is your location in and near large population centers. Plenty of customers.
I agree, Herman. However, is the problem the jig or the mismatch of grinding wheel and exotic alloy? The jig itself seems well designed to me. Allen recently posted an interesting post about sharpening the blades from a Lion Trimmer with the planer jig. The Lion Trimmer is a century old stalwart guillotine trimmer for trim and picture frames. Due to the age of the design and the need for the keenness of edge only carbon steel can provide, I suspect these blades must be carbon steel. They need sharpened more often, but can be very sharp, due to the fine grain structure of carbon steel. Any follow up, Allen?
For many years I had a small, very small, part time photography business. I specialized in custom black and white processing. I liked to work "in house", but realized that some jobs were better done by a commercial lab. I had a couple jobs requiring 16x20" framed color prints. As my darkroom was primarily set up for black and white and the one job called for the two large prints to be framed in the same frame (my mat cutter could only handle mats up to 40"), it was more cost effective for me to deal with a commercial lab and a framing shop. I think the same might apply for most of us with occasional exotic steel sharpening.
Certainly regularly sharpening several sets of planer blades each week would warrant the investment in specialized equipment. However, sharpening one's own planer and jointer blades a couple time a year might be best contracted out if they are an exotic metal.
Ken
the problem here though Ken is that it's only after one has shelled out the £120 for the jig that you "find out" they don't really deal with ultra hard steels. It's the same old same old....the marketing folks just plaster all the promotional collateral with "why use an expensive service when you can sharpen your planar knives yourself". But these days more and more machine tools that deal with man made materials and procedures at high speed have steels that are way harder than carbon steel. Harder than HSS in some cases.
The marketing folks don't factor those scenarios into their collateral because "it works....some of the time" doesn't sound quite as snappy! Or....."it can work, but we're not going to tell you when it doesn't work because we're people people and people people always phrase things in the positive"
Or as I might phrase it: "our engineers have created a jig which can give outstanding results. For that to occur, certain variables must be met, it is possible that your setup won't meet those variables but by specifying what they are might cause people to lose confidence in the solution and consequently fail to purchase it. Were that to happen, our job would cease to exist since we are accountable to the exec for creating "desire" in our potential customers. Since we value our jobs more than our customers it is important we neglect to mention all that inconvenient "truth" stuff."
Although that may well land me with the title of being rather cynical :-) As Oscar Wilde said: scratch the surface of a cynic and you'll find an idealist beneath :-)
This would be an excellent opportunity for those members of the forum who have had good experiences with the planer jig to post. If you have had a good experience with this jig, please post. We want to hear from you.
Ken
I think I rather agree with Ken when he said, "..is the problem the jig or the mismatch of grinding wheel and exotic alloy?" I'm guessing it's the latter.
I don't have a planer and so I can't speak for the jig, but I've had similar experience with very hard knives. Steel even approaching RHC 60 is very difficult to sharpen on the Tormek. It's not that the jig is working differently, just that the steel is so hard the wheel just has a very hard time cutting it. You can grind away for a long time with little results. It can be very frustrating.
CBN is made for hard alloys and will cut stuff AO and the like won't touch. I suspect, Rob, CBN might be what you have been looking for to do planer blades. I don't have one, but that is what the wheels are supposed to excel in cutting and what they are made to do.
Search around in Netland and I suspect you will arrive at that same conclusion. You might contact one of the manufactures and explain the issue and see what they say. It would be cool if you did, or better yet if you got one so you could let the rest of us know. :)
I think we're all agreeing with Ken that there's nothing wrong with the jig. I've stated this many times. The jig is brilliantly conceived and engineered. It positions the blade in exactly the right conditions and then keeps it there throughout the grind. It protects the necessary precision required for the balance of planar blades really well as that setting is baked into the design.
The problem was never anything to do with the jig, twas always the inability of the grinding to cut the steel successfully. So you're right, if a grinding wheel existed that didn't require truing while simultaneously cutting more aggressively, then they would probably do it. CBN does appear to be such a technology if the hyperbole is accurate. However, it is stunningly expensive when your economic case is cast in a domestic setting because lets say the wheel costs £200. If I send my planar blades to a service they cost around £25. So I could get 8 sharpenings done externally before my CBN has paid for itself on those grounds. Well I haven't sharpened my planar knives 8 times in the last 5 years :-) Once a year would be about normal and maybe twice if I have a tricky project in oak to do which I am wont to do every now and then.
So for my needs, there is no economy of scale. In an industrial setting it would be a no brainer.
But that wasn't really where Ken was going...Ken is asking forum members to come up with "good news" about experiences with the planar jig so he can stick it to me for operator error :-) (I'm joking Ken).
Seriously though, he does have a good point because there aren't many of us who use the planar jig so experience is very thin on the ground. It is possible (I guess) that technique is missing but in fairness to my process I spent 8 hours solid grinding these knives and that was after reading and re-reading the procedures plus all of Ionut's posts and I know for certain I had it setup exactly as designed. The problem was nowt to do with the jig, the wheel just wont cut my steel. And we debated this with Jeff at the time and even he (Mr Confident himself) was very reticent to overly promote the efficacy of the jig/wheel combo. His suggestion was to try the blackstone but counter to that, our very own Ken has got disappointing results in quite well controlled and objective testing where the blackstone didn't remove as much steel as the SG!!
So in summary: in my own mind the CBN approach sounds very promising indeed but the current cost makes it inaccessible.
I think this has been an interesting topic. It is obviously about non Tormek products being used on the Tormek. We have expressed doubts and concerns about the present effectiveness of the Tormek system with coarse grinding and hard steels. Admittedly these are beyond the original scope of the Tormek. However, the scope of the Tormek has widened over the years, without losing sight of its original purpose.
Despite the constructive criticism, I do not see us selling our Tormeks, nor do I expect to see a rush in CBN or Norton 3X grinding wheel sales. Hopefully Sweden has been reading this topic and has become more aware that the party faithful would like a more efficient means of dealing with heavier grinding and harder steels. I believe this kind of work is within the present scope of the Tormek when supplemented with third party grinding wheels. I believe Tormek will continue evolving and eventually offer its own wheels for these tasks.
Most of us do not require these specialized grinding wheels. I do not believe many of us will actually purchase CBN wheels, although the 3X wheels may prove most effective for some of us. It may be that Tormek may decide that the business interests of the company are more effectively served by using third party products for items of limited demand. That is certainly understandable. As the cost of CBN wheels declines, Tormek may decide to enter the ring. I have no inside information.
It is comforting to know that should the need arise for me to sharpen planer blades or hard steel allows that my Tormek can be adapted to these tasks while still providing the same hallmark cool dust and spark free grinding.
Ken
I think the SB grindstone was introduced to address the issue of the harder exotic steels, but it just doesn't do the job as well as cBN.
Ken, I agree that the problem is not the jig. But I don't agree that the sharpening of exotic hard steels is necessarily occasional. What if someone buys the planar blade jig and the only planar blades they own are of the harder steel variety?
Rob, I agree that the problem is the way it's marketed. Have you tried the SB grindstone on these harder planar blades?
Good points, Herman. For someone who regularlyused a planer (and jointer), it would certainly not be an occasional need. If I was in that circumstance, I might try the low cost 3X wheel first, but I would be prepared to purchase a CBN wheel.
I think the marketing people need to go back to the drawing table with customer expectations. While it well known that I anm a Tormek fan, reading the comments about sharpening hard alloy steel planer blades for the times posted does not excite me. Nor does the tactic of subcontracting to a dry grinder.
Ken
Quote from: Herman Trivilino on June 14, 2015, 06:31:56 PM
I think the SB grindstone was introduced to address the issue of the harder exotic steels, but it just doesn't do the job as well as cBN.
Ken, I agree that the problem is not the jig. But I don't agree that the sharpening of exotic hard steels is necessarily occasional. What if someone buys the planar blade jig and the only planar blades they own are of the harder steel variety?
Rob, I agree that the problem is the way it's marketed. Have you tried the SB grindstone on these harder planar blades?
That's my only weak spot in all of this. I confess that I bought the blackstone specifically to address the inability of the SG to sharpen my planar knives. It took 8 hours as I posted above and I'm not exaggerating with that I'm being quite literal. After about 2 hours I gave up on regarding the SG with the sp650 because it glazed over again in seconds. Eventually I started using the diamond dresser to true the wheel because it was the only way to keep it cutting. Now it would glaze after a couple of minutes. On I struggled for hours until it had got the job sort of done. By the end of course the wheel was a lower diameter and that threw the jigs settings out.
The procedure was so frustrating that I haven't had the will to try it again with the SB and since the SB is the right wheel for HSS and I began turning at about this time I had a use for it anyway. So I should cycle back and finish the experiment with the blackstone but I'm pretty sure it wont make any difference. But that's anecdotal and not reasonable. Finding the time to do it again might be a tad tricky with the family circumstances.
As promised, here is an answer to the question from D-way tools about rust with CBN wheels:
Ken,
Rust is not a problem with wheel, but the bushing can rust, a little oil on it before installation fixes that.
Should last you a lifetime, I have some I have been using for seven years and are still going.
I am not sure anything is fast with Tormek, but the 180 is the most popular.
Dave Schweitzer
Dave is referring to the bushing which adapts the CBN larger bore to the Tormek 12mm bore. Apparently the bushings are not stainless steel. This seems like a problem, if it is an actual problem, which could be easily and relatively inexpensively remedied with a stainless bushing. Any good local machine shop should be able to fix that.
The second question was asking Dave for a SWAG of CBN wheel life. The third question was, assuming a part time Tormek user would probably only purchase one grit, which would be the most practical.
My sharpening needs have almost no high speed steel at present. I have found that the SG wheel does fine (for me) with the occasional high speed drill bit. I find this topic fascinating, but probably will not be the first to purchase a CBN wheel. (The tormek junkie in me can't quite get past the thrifty old New England Yankee.)
Quote from: Ken S on June 14, 2015, 05:51:02 PM
I think this has been an interesting topic. It is obviously about non Tormek products being used on the Tormek. We have expressed doubts and concerns about the present effectiveness of the Tormek system with coarse grinding and hard steels. Admittedly these are beyond the original scope of the Tormek. However, the scope of the Tormek has widened over the years, without losing sight of its original purpose.
Despite the constructive criticism, I do not see us selling our Tormeks, nor do I expect to see a rush in CBN or Norton 3X grinding wheel sales. Hopefully Sweden has been reading this topic and has become more aware that the party faithful would like a more efficient means of dealing with heavier grinding and harder steels. I believe this kind of work is within the present scope of the Tormek when supplemented with third party grinding wheels. I believe Tormek will continue evolving and eventually offer its own wheels for these tasks.
Most of us do not require these specialized grinding wheels. I do not believe many of us will actually purchase CBN wheels, although the 3X wheels may prove most effective for some of us. It may be that Tormek may decide that the business interests of the company are more effectively served by using third party products for items of limited demand. That is certainly understandable. As the cost of CBN wheels declines, Tormek may decide to enter the ring. I have no inside information.
It is comforting to know that should the need arise for me to sharpen planer blades or hard steel allows that my Tormek can be adapted to these tasks while still providing the same hallmark cool dust and spark free grinding.
Ken
To me, I see the CBN quite similar to how I see a bench grinder, which Tormek does sell a kit to use their jigs on. One thing to possibly speed up initial sharpening/shaping/chip removal, verses taking a while on the Tormek. The other direction, and I couldn't find the wheel, was a finer grain CBN, compared to the SJ wheel for stuff like the knives some chef friends have (frequent touch ups). I remember reading about a finer grit CBN somewhere.
Those 3x wheels are great for a lot of metal removal (think punch dressing/sizing for garage/mechanical work) and I would like to try a CBN for that (keeps auto fluids away from the Tormek stone). I don't think there is any issue with that (no warnings from them yet), as that tech advances, I could even see Tormek, eventually deciding to sell one if it was deemed useful enough.
I agree that CBN wheels will eventually be available in more and finer grits. I suspect this will be sooner rather than later, if not already.
I bought my six inch dry grinder from Sears in 1972. Admittedly it is no Baldor, but it has served my home needs well. One side has an 80 grit white wheel which has not been used since I bought my Tormek. The other wheel is a 3X 46 grit. I bought it to remove major mushrooming from two splitting wedges for a friend. It really does the job, and with a chunky splitting wedge head overheating is not a problem.
I tried this wheel with the Tormek and was pleased enough to purchase two eight inch 3x wheels. (46 and 80 grit. Either one would suffice,) Used this way, they offer the benefits of Tormek's water cooled dust and spark free grinding with much of the speed of dry grinding. Since there is no Tormek wheel of this coarseness, this is a workable low cost option for things like reshaping turning tools or the initial rough sharpening of planer blades with nicks.
Ken
Ken, is the Craftsman a square frame grinder? (right time period)
If so, don't knock those, as they were US made and by forums I have been on, quite comparable, even better cost/value to a Baldor, and I have one of each.
SADW, that's the one! 3450 RPM, half a horse power, built in flex light. As I recall, it was$29.95 on sale from 49.95. I bought two, one for my father-in-law. My son-in-law uses it now. Both are still in service since 1972. not a bad service record.
Ken
There are CBN emulsions for belts and leather wheels are available from a variety of sources. Here is an example of one source.
0.1 micron – 80 micron
http://www.jendeindustries.com/products/sharpening-products/marble-basins/product/198-cbn-emulsions-from-ken-schwartz
Here's another:
4 Micron: 4,000 grit
1.5 Micron: 13,000 grit
.5 Micron: 60,000 grit
.1 Micron: 160,000 grit
http://www.kmesharp.com/cbnemulsions.html
Spray on too:
http://www.oldawan.com/sharpening-supplies/cubic-boron-nitride-cbn-sprays/
Quote from: Ken S on June 16, 2015, 10:27:38 AM
I agree that CBN wheels will eventually be available in more and finer grits. I suspect this will be sooner rather than later, if not already.
Now available in Super Fine 350/400 grit and Fine 170/200 grit (ASTME)
https://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/p/97/5784/Raptor-8%22-CBN-Fine-Sharpening-Wheel-with-Arbor-Bushing
Interesting post, Grepper. A couple things caught my eye:
"Warning: Grinding non-heat treated steel such as carbon steel, aluminum and other soft metals will cause irreparable damage to the CBN wheel."
While the CBN wheels might be the greatest thing since sliced bread for harder steels, I am not ready to discard my SG wheel for carbon steel, which is the bulk of my sharpening. The new EZYlock quick change shaft has certainly made multi wheels practical. Cost may be a constraint, but switching on a Tormek certainly presents no difficulty.
The other thought is the need for a common or at least translated chart of stone coarseness or fineness. When I see "superfine" represented as 350/400 and "fine" as 170/200, we definitely have apples and oranges with numbers. I routinely try to denote measurements in both "English" and metric. I wish coarseness was expressed that way. When Tormek's 200 grit of the SG when graded coarse is considered coarse and 1000 is considered fine, to be followed by the leather honing wheel, given the mystical grit number of 6000, there is confusion.
Most of the websites I have seen for CBN wheels do not seem quite ready for prime time for Tormek when it comes to bore bushings. Even D-way, which seems the most Tormek friendly, doesn't quite hit the mark. I like the eight or ten inch option they offer. The 1 1/2" (40mm) width is closest to the Tormek. It is identical with the width of the SG200 wheel for the T4. I think they are almost there, but would prefer a stainless 12mm bushing to prevent rust. In fact, when the industry decides to get serious about providing CBN wheels for Tormek, I would like to see the wheels made with 12mm bores requiring no bushing, just like Tormek's wheels.
I hope Allen Simpson chimes in. His tool and diemaker background would be invaluable in this discussion. I can see the value of a CBN wheel for someone who sharpens planer and jointer blades or who does a lot of turning. It would be nice if one grit would suffice. This one wheel approach may not be practical. I am questioning, not pronouncing. Again, we must balance speed with smoothness of finish with consideration of cost.
I know a veteran Tormek user who finishes his planer blades with a small microbevel ground with the SJ 250 4000 grit Jananese wheel. That might not be practical for day to day working, but, for high quality work, it would be sweet.
Some have questioned using high speed wheels with the Tormek. I may be in the minority, but it seems like a nice balance to me. The coarser grit wheels cut faster, keeping the time involved to a reasonable amount. I especially like not having to perform routine maintenance on the wheel. The slower speed and water cooling of the Tormek keeps everything well controlled, cool and free of metal grinding debris.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on June 16, 2015, 08:12:19 PM
"Warning: Grinding non-heat treated steel such as carbon steel, aluminum and other soft metals will cause irreparable damage to the CBN wheel."
The reason they say that is because with soft steel the wheel can load up. However, many sources say just run the wheel with some hardened steel and it clears the wheel. People even tested that with aluminum and brass and it worked.
As usual, good comments, Grepper. I think these wheels warrant serious study.
Ken