Not long owned my machine. The surface of my stone grader has become shiny, and I am now wondering how affective it is at grading the waterstone. Have I been using to much pressure on the stone grader to cause it to become shiny on the course side. Any help very welcome.
Welcome to the forum, Martin. Two ways to tell if your stone grader is still working effectively:
First, feel the grindstone while it ts runnung. The grindstone should feel like glass after using the stone grader fine side and rough after using the coarse side of the stone grader. related to this, you should also hear a difference. Graded fine, the grinding should sound quieter.
Second, try grinding the "standard" three quarter inch (19 mm) bench chisel. Look carefully at the scratches left after grinding with the wheel graded coarse. The grade the grinding wheel fine and grind. If the scratches left are much finer, your stone grader is doing its job.
As to the shinyness, I am traveling for a few days and am unable to look at my stone grader. Hopefully some of the other forum members will chime in. I suspect most of the stone grader replacements are due to being dropped on concrete floors. Abrasives are very hard and therefore brittle. They usually last a long time.
Ken
I've not heard of the stone grader becoming shiny before, especially the coarse side. Not to say it's not so, just never heard of that before. Maybe someone else has had that happen.
Try using the edges of the stone grader. That can be very effective.
Also, try using the short edge of the grader, so that you are holding the stone grader with the long side parallel to the wheel. You can get a lot of extra life out of it by using both ends.
My stone is doing exactly the same thing. Looks as if its getting polished. I was wondering if the grading stone can be reconditioned?
Grade the grader....I like that...sounds like a product opportunity Tormek...$50, $60 a hundred...what do you think. No of course, you're right....$800 and you get a "free" T7 with every one :-)
The new PI55-Taker diamond grader-isation-aliser. No shop should be without one (or three)
I just thought taking it to an 80 grit might take the shine off and give it more teeth! Anyhow, its nice and shiny now!
Quote from: Rick on May 13, 2015, 07:50:07 PM
My stone is doing exactly the same thing. Looks as if its getting polished. I was wondering if the grading stone can be reconditioned?
Use the corner of the stone grader and apply lots of pressure.
That's what I'm doing Herman, but I don't think that the grader should glaze over as this is an important tool for the obvious reasons.
I wonder if you are sharpening or grinding some really soft metals on the Tormek and the residue is clogging the grader? In any case, I would suggest using a wire brush and hope for the best. Although you might take the diamond dressing tool and see it you can do something with that. I would simply rub it vigorously all over the grader. You should know that I have no experience with this problem and am just throwing out suggestions of what I would try.
This all started when I tried to sharpen DeWALT planer blades with the SB-250. I found that the stone glazed over rather quickly (about 20 revolutions) requiring frequent grading. If you have a slightly damaged blade DO NOT try to re-edge it with the T-7 and the SB-250 unless you have a few hours to waste. Best scrap the blades and buy a new set. Now I need a new SP-650. Very frustrating considering the cash spent on this equipment.
been there...got that T-shirt. Planar blade jig...rubbish!
the SP650 isn't ruined though. The surface is meant to wear away slowly so you can persevere with it and it will work on the grindstone. You really need to lean on it, don't be shy with the weight, you wont hurt the Tormek. You could try roughing the 650 with one of those T shaped diamond dressers just to take the skin off so to speak but you shouldn't need to. Just give it some welly on the grindstone.
Your problem isn't the sp650, its grinding anything with a large surface area that has very hard metal. All HSS fits into this bracket and some planar knives are even more exotic alloys which are incredibly hard. The planar jig/Tormek combo are simply not up to the task of grinding those difficult metals. I went through all this myself with Startrite 12" planar knives. I had to grade it so often that the wheel was sufficiently reduced in size to throw off the precision settings of the jig!!
"Planer blade jig...rubbish"
The most experienced Tormek user I know successfully uses the planer blade, both with the Tormek and with another sharpening system. I agree that the are difficulties sharpening planer blades with the Tormek. I do not know if the difficulties are with the grinding wheel and high speed steel or with operator technique. Jeff Farris wrote very little about the SB or the planer jig. Sweden has not published much about either. My gut feeling is that the jig is OK. I do not have enough knowledge about the area to know, nor have I sharpened any planer blades. My tests with the SB have left me frustrated with it.
Someone please enlighten me.
Ken
Ken I appreciate your enthusiasm for all things Tormek but genuinely struggle to understand how you can come out in support of a component you haven't used??
I sense where you're coming from is perhaps related to Ionut's comments? But you also cite Jeff Farris' noticeable silence on this particular jig. Surely you must all realise that it was because Jeff is an honest bloke that he never commented on the jig. He "knew" it basically only works half the time and then only with very soft metals, so to avoid having to tell "porky pies" (cockney rhyming slang for lies) he just remained tacet, thus avoiding any conflict. I always felt that reading between the lines of Jeff's very tentative comments about the planar jig that he had no faith in it. My experience (with very hard steel) absolutely bears that out. Recall it took me 8 hours to grind my 3 knives and even then was unable to remove a ding. The stone glazed over so fast, one spent the whole time regrading the stone. There's no operator error involved in the stone glazing, it was clearly cutting but the qty and hardness of the steel were too much for it.
Honestly, I really hate to be the one that bursts your extremely exuberant about Tormek bubble but the planar jig is simply not fit for purpose. I feel if you analysed all the planar jig comments scientifically you'd find more frustrating fails than significant successes. Ionut being the obvious good one but then he isn't your average punter, he's a highly skilled, engineering minded "veritable inventor" and I imagine few problems will prevent him from seeing a creative method round the obstacles.
Ironically, the jig isn't the problem, the jig is another triumph of Tormek design. The problem is the grinding medium. Yet again (my hobby horse I know), the problem is that the Tormek system is not good at removing a lot of steel when it's hard and large in surface area. If such a thing as an industrial diamond wheel existed then we might have a solution!!
The challenge is that the wheel glazes too quickly, stops cutting leaving one with the dubious pleasure of either leaning on the SP 650 literally every minute or so...or trying to get even more aggression into the wheel, truing it with the diamond dresser. That causes sufficient wheel wear to throw out the very precise jig settings. The wheel wont cut for long enough to get through the job.
I think the issue is, as Rob said, large surface areas of exotically hard high-speed steels (HSS). There is no tool with universal applicability. Somewhere along the way we all meet our match.
I also agree with Rob that the stone grader is not ruined by the glaze. Mine's been that way for many many years and it still works just fine. Sorry for the pun. It works just coarse, too. ???
Quote from: Rob on May 15, 2015, 04:15:20 PM
the SP650 isn't ruined though. The surface is meant to wear away slowly so you can persevere with it and it will work on the grindstone. You really need to lean on it, don't be shy with the weight, you wont hurt the Tormek. You could try roughing the 650 with one of those T shaped diamond dressers just to take the skin off so to speak but you shouldn't need to. Just give it some welly on the grindstone.
Your problem isn't the sp650, its grinding anything with a large surface area that has very hard metal. All HSS fits into this bracket and some planar knives are even more exotic alloys which are incredibly hard. The planar jig/Tormek combo are simply not up to the task of grinding those difficult metals. I went through all this myself with Startrite 12" planar knives. I had to grade it so often that the wheel was sufficiently reduced in size to throw off the precision settings of the jig!!
Rob, I put a ton of effort pressing down on that thing, I'm 225lbs at 6', and fairly strong if I may add. Bustin a sweat on them planer knives is simply not right.
Quote from: Rob on May 15, 2015, 07:44:30 PM
Ken I appreciate your enthusiasm for all things Tormek but genuinely struggle to understand how you can come out in support of a component you haven't used??
I sense where you're coming from is perhaps related to Ionut's comments? But you also cite Jeff Farris' noticeable silence on this particular jig. Surely you must all realise that it was because Jeff is an honest bloke that he never commented on the jig. He "knew" it basically only works half the time and then only with very soft metals, so to avoid having to tell "porky pies" (cockney rhyming slang for lies) he just remained tacet, thus avoiding any conflict. I always felt that reading between the lines of Jeff's very tentative comments about the planar jig that he had no faith in it. My experience (with very hard steel) absolutely bears that out. Recall it took me 8 hours to grind my 3 knives and even then was unable to remove a ding. The stone glazed over so fast, one spent the whole time regrading the stone. There's no operator error involved in the stone glazing, it was clearly cutting but the qty and hardness of the steel were too much for it.
Honestly, I really hate to be the one that bursts your extremely exuberant about Tormek bubble but the planar jig is simply not fit for purpose. I feel if you analysed all the planar jig comments scientifically you'd find more frustrating fails than significant successes. Ionut being the obvious good one but then he isn't your average punter, he's a highly skilled, engineering minded "veritable inventor" and I imagine few problems will prevent him from seeing a creative method round the obstacles.
Ironically, the jig isn't the problem, the jig is another triumph of Tormek design. The problem is the grinding medium. Yet again (my hobby horse I know), the problem is that the Tormek system is not good at removing a lot of steel when it's hard and large in surface area. If such a thing as an industrial diamond wheel existed then we might have a solution!!
The challenge is that the wheel glazes too quickly, stops cutting leaving one with the dubious pleasure of either leaning on the SP 650 literally every minute or so...or trying to get even more aggression into the wheel, truing it with the diamond dresser. That causes sufficient wheel wear to throw out the very precise jig settings. The wheel wont cut for long enough to get through the job.
Rob, I couldn't of said it any better than the way you just did. However, I did come to a resolve on the planer blades, I used the planer jig, the XB-100 on a homemade mount that I attached to my high speed belt sander using alumina zirconia blue belts finishing with stropping belt....all I can say is.....OMG, 10 mins a blade with no sweat involved! The results are beyond expectations.
Excellent....a really cunning idea for getting round the very obstacles we're highlighting. Well done, I might just try something similar myself :-)
Rob and Rick,
My "enthusiasm for all things Tormek" is not quite accurate. I can see where someone reading my posts might come to the conclusion that I am the chief Tormek cheerleader on the forum. However, an honest reader should also conclude that I also wear the hat of the chief Tormek critic, or at least one of the top tier critics.
I do like many things Tormek, and have been quite positive in my posts where I feel the praise is deserved. I have also ben very critical of some of Tormek's products and, especially, the marketing and (lack of)training. in over fifteen hundred posts, I do not recall having written one kind word about the SB-250. I have always posted the possibility that my problems with it may be operator error or inexperience. I think that's only fair, and I am more than willing to learn and grow. I have so far not met my expectations with the SB-250. I don't use it much because I don't sharpen much high speed steel.
I have also been very critical of both the way the T4 has been marketed and what is, in my opinion, a lack of good training material. In fairness to Tormek, Rob, we both know that the Tormek handbook leaves the other system's piddly excuse for an instruction manual in the dust. That said, I find the handbook could be enlarged to be more useful. The recent post about sharpening miter trimmer blades illustrates this. Three minuscule drawings and a few words really do not fully explain the operation.
I believe many of the recurring difficulties posted could be lessened with better you tube training aids. I have found some value in the website's products, however, they seem more oriented toward the marketing department's theme that the Tormek does wonderful work with no learning curve. While I like the product, the customers would be better served with more thorough training material which addressed some of the learning curve. Tormek is more than capable of producing well made videos. The friends series are quite good. The product series are also quite good. The difficulty is that they display the wares and don't tackle the problems.
Rob, you correctly detect that I was referring to Ionut's work with the planer blade jig. One of my guiding principles with the Tormek is that if either Jeff Farris or Ionut could achieve good results with something Tormek, the problem was not with the product itself. Sadly, Jeff Farris is no longer associated with Tormek and Ionut no longer posts.
At the time, I wondered why Jeff seemed to post very little about the new wheels or jigs. I knew he had sold his sharptoolsusa business. I did not realize that he and Tormek had parted ways. In hindsight, I believe that he had agreed to remain the forum moderator, but no longer had any affiliation with Tormek.
I find it most unfortunate for the forum that Jeff and Ionut are no longer with us. Their departure has left some large knowledge/experience gaps.
I plead no contest to never having actually used the planer blade jig. In my defense, I noted that in my post. This is one of several areas where I would prefer to read responses from experienced hands. All too often, many posts would go completely unanswered if only those with experience answered. I don't believe we have any experienced planer blade members, at least any who post. The same situation is true with the drill bit jig. I have used that jig, although not a lot. I have not read any posts from anyone who has a lot of experience with it. So, Rob, when your post referred to the planer blade jig as "rubbish", I responded from my "if Ionut gets good results with it, the problem is not the jig" mode.
I do not doubt the difficulties that posters have had using the planer jig. like you, I believe the problem is the stone rather than the jig itself. The results you have both had with using the jig with the BGM-100 and a dry grinder reinforce my belief that the jig is not the problem. I have not found Tormek's relative silence on the SB-250 comforting. There are better methods of dealing with harder steels than either the SB stone or the BGM-100. A coarser grinding stone would both cut faster (while not glazing) and preserve the cool dust and spark free grinding environment of the Tormek. This is possible; Tormek has just not authorized it.
I remain both enthusiastic and critical,
Ken
I do love you Ken :-)
Likewise, Rob. ;D I hope this won't interfere with your role as the Chief Forum Cynic...........
Ken
I would like to think not :-)
Quote from: Ken S on May 16, 2015, 12:17:44 PM
I find it most unfortunate for the forum that Jeff and Ionut are no longer with us. Their departure has left some large knowledge/experience gaps.
I agree that Jeff and Ionut are missed here on the forum. However, I am thankful for each one of you that contribute! I won't start naming names as someone would be left out.
OMG.....Tormek has gone into the Bermuda Triangle....we're all doooooomed!!!!
Hi,
There are some planer blades that are really hard to sharpen, no doubt about it. When they also get nicks in them it takes a long time to fix them. In general, planer blades who gets larger nicks, are very hard but also more likely to get more damaged.
The metal has a very long lifetime but when it breaks it breaks big.
I sharpened a 600 mm blade for a videoshot some years ago and that blade took me about 40 minutes to sharpen with the SB-250 stone. I found that ok as it was the first large blade I sharpened. After some practise I would cut minutes easily. The sad story is when i was done sharpening and hold the blade in my hand, in the jig, i dropped it on the stone, still spinning, and made a big nick in the middle of the blade :-(
As for the SB-250, that stone is a favourite amongst many woodturners who are making a living of the woodturning.
It is a good choice for those who can afford it and saves time in sharpening and makes time for more woodturning. In the end it pays itself.
Best
Stig
well thanks for posting Stig, its kind of you to contribute. I'm not entirely sure your response has really moved the debate any further forward though if I'm completely honest. Hey ho, thanks anyway.
Hi,
Rick,
When you use the stonegrader, use your fingers to feel how the stones feel. You should feel the grid when you have used the coarse side and after using the fine side, the stone should feel smooth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYNkEKS5-KY
I`ll share this link to our Tormek stones too,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDZxJBMXT4k
Best,
Stig
Stig,
Thanks for the input.
I always use my fingers to see what my eyes can't.
I'm glad that you've had a certain degree of success with that black stone. I can't say if I'd ever recommend it to anyone for anything as my results left me frustrated.
Rick.