Choosing between a T3 (now T4) and a T7 is a frequent post on this forum. Almost all of us are T7 users. Invariably the advice has been to favor the T7. My advice has always been that the smaller units may be desirable in small work areas or in situations requiring light weight for portability or for older users. I have never felt the price difference was enough to be a major consideration.
I had the opportunity to examine the T4 this afternoon and discuss it with two Tormek experts. I still believe the price difference between the T4 and T7 is not enough to be a serious consideration, especially for those of us who sharpen woodworking tools. (The T4 does not come with the SE-76 square edge jig. The T7 does come with it.)
Getting beyond the cost difference, I was surprisingly pleased with the T4. The cast zinc top with machined sleeves for the universal support bar is much more precise than the old plastic. The entire unit had a more solid feel. It also has a sturdy handle. The supposedly "fifty per cent duty" motor is most unlikely to burn out with home or light commercial use. I would not factor it in.
Over the past years, I have purchased two T7s. (The first one was stolen.) When I needed to replace the first unit, I automatically chose another T7. If I needed to purchase a Tormek now, I would probably choose the T7 again. However, that decision would be heavily influenced by the fact that I already own the black and Japanese wheels.
If I did not already own the two extra wheels, the decision would be difficult. It would come down to the smaller size and weight of the T4 or the ten inch diameter wheel of the T7. Considering most dry grinders have six inch wheels, with eight inch being a smaller number of more deluxe models, I think the eight inch wheels of the T4 would more than suffice for my work. My Tormek does not leave my shop. The shop is large enough that Tormek size is really not a consideration. If I traveled with the Tormek or had a mobile sharpening service, I would definitely opt for the smaller unit.
For those of you who are debating which model Tormek to purchase, I urge you to consider the choice carefully,
Ken
I made up a saying for which I am quite proud. It goes like this, "you can use less of more but you cannot make more of less". It means that you can use part of a larger or more powerful thing, but you probably cannot make a smaller or less powerful thing big enough or powerful enough. Go with bigger, in this case the T7. When was the last time you regretted buying the best?
No different then the "value" argument, it is a personal thing. I use mine for lots of things, but the friend whose restaurant has sent me knives to sharpen, well that is all they would use it for and if they had something like the T4 to hone or touch them up often, that would be all they needed.
I can see both points of view. In the past, I have always leaned toward over buying. However, years later, I have realized that I did not need as much excess capacity as I dreamed I might. For anyone who routinely sharpens several hours each week, I would lean toward the T7, especially if doing heavy work. For the home woodworker who keeps his plane blades and chisels in top working order, with some kitchen knives, the T4 should be more than adequate. Even with something like turning, a turner using a mini lathe to make pens would need well sharpened tools, but the sharpening setup need not be heavy duty industrial.
The decision should be based on the reasonably expected work load. I do not see the T4 as having lower quality. It is just designed for a lighter work load.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on October 31, 2014, 07:25:05 PM
I can see both points of view. In the past, I have always leaned toward over buying. However, years later, I have realized that I did not need as much excess capacity as I dreamed I might.
That's a difficult thing to judge. If we under-buy we notice it when the tool is not up to the task. If we over-buy we are less likely to run into a situation where the tool is not up tho the task, but we are also less likely to remember it happening. We tend to recall failure more often than success. It's part of being human.
Regarding the cost differnce between the T4 and the T7:
The November Rockler brochure shows the T7 with free rotational base and knife jig for $665, the standard price. If that includes free shipping, that puts the T7 and the T4 on almost equal footing. The brochure states free shipping with some exclusions. That puts the decision back to weight and bulk versus the larger diameter wheel.
Ideally, I would see if your local Tormek dealer would match this.
Ken
I think a lot of consideration should be put into what the future might hold. If a T4 is presently adequate for your needs, will it be next year? Are you going to be stuck even if by your own choice in "today". Like I said, you can use more of less but you cannot make more of less. Consider a gun safe that is presently adequate for your needs but just barely. Will even one more firearm render it inadequate? You can probably squeeze in one more but what about two more? At some point you have run out or room and will not be able to protect something or in this case, be able to use your tool for more than 30 minutes without a cool down. Do you want to go watch TV every half hour or so and then come back to what you were doing? If cost is a factor and you saved up for the T4, then save some more and get the T7. You could never sell either for what you paid for them and first loss is least loss.
I'm a little in both camps, but mostly with jeffs55.
I HATE wishing later that I should have purchased something better, especially when it's durable goods such as a Tormek. I've done that often enough. I like to be happy and love and appreciate my tools every time I use them, rather than the repeated depressing feeling of, yea it will do, but it's kind of a piece of crap. Or worse yet, having to replace it later with what I should have purchased the first time because it really didn't work out because it was wimpy or underpowered, or breaks and turns to a pile of junk as seems to be happening more often now as just about everything is specially imported from the Orient and was junk to begin with.
Onion other hand, I would not buy a bulldozer to plow my driveway.
I believe we must keep two things in mind with this discussion:
1) None of us has actual experience with the T4. (to the best of my knowledge, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) We are comparing a known product with an unknown product.
2) The T4 is not a cheap knockoff. It is manufactured by Tormek, just like the T7. With the exception of the support bar and water trough, it uses the same jigs and accessories as the T7. It includes a seven year guarantee. The T7 is guaranteed for seven plus three years. Compare either to a new automobile.
The motor of the T4 is 120 watts vs 200 for the T7. It is not rated for continuous duty. The motor seems to be the same as used on the T3. I would be curious to hear from Sweden as to how many burned out motors were replaced on T3 units. I suspect not many. I doubt I would ever exceed the capability of the T4 motor. At my sharpening needs and age, I doubt I would ever exceed the limitations of the T4.
Last week, the two Tormek reps I spoke with pointed out the composition of the drive wheel on the T4. It is a new Tormek developed rubbery surface which gives much improved traction for the power train. The support bar sleeves are machined directly from the zinc casting. The machined casting is all one part. I had the impression that the machined zinc casting easily matched and possibly surpassed the precision of the T7.
Examining the T4 briefly, it seemed like a solid, well built unit. I believe certain situations make choosing the heavier duty T7 a logical choice. If, like Kenny K in Scotland, I had the responsibility of maintaining two hundred chisels and many plane blades, at least one T7 would be the best choice. For an active turning or cabinet shop, the T7 would seem the right choice, just as it would in a busy knife making or sharpening shop.
I can appreciate the wisdom of planning ahead. For younger persons with big dreams, I would say go for the gold. For those of us, who, like me, are retired or contemplating retirement, our future requirements may differ. For me, choosing the Tormek was largely based on lessening the stress on my hands from using bench stones. My Tormek has certainly accomplished that for me. When I purchased the first unit in 2008, the T7 was the only choice. It has served me well. In hindsight, if the T4 had been available at the time, I believe it would have been very sufficient for my needs.
So, in addition to weighing compactness vs a larger diameter wheel, I would factor in age and realistic future expectations. The decision is personal. Worst case scenario: if one should happen to choose the wring Tormek, they hold their value well. Switching would not be costly if the requirements changed.
Ken
Something else I just thought of, with the T4 your wheel is 200mm in diameter, the T7 is 250mm. That is a huge deficit right from the start. No matter how little you use the T4, you are starting with a wheel that is 50mm less in size. There are about 52mm in an inch. Will anyone argue that two inches is not significant? In linear measurement it is just two inches but we are talking cubic inches not linear feet due to the pi x r squared x mm thing. There is a lot of mass in that two inches/ 50mm.
I'm sure the T4 is a fine, quality machine. It is, after all, a Tormek.
Retail pricing seems to be about $200.00 US difference between the T4 and the T7. The T4 has no truing tool, which you will need eventually. That's about $65.00 US + shipping. It also does not include any jigs. Seems like one or two jigs might be handy. I wouldn't want to have to worry about the 30 minute duty cycle either. If size and weight, or a small amount of immediate cash flow is not a primary concern, it would be an easy choice for me.
I think Ken S summed it up when he said at the start of this thread, "My advice has always been that the smaller units may be desirable in small work areas or in situations requiring light weight for portability or for older users. I have never felt the price difference was enough to be a major consideration."
Quote from: jeffs55 on November 05, 2014, 03:26:19 PM
Something else I just thought of, with the T4 your wheel is 200mm in diameter, the T7 is 250mm. That is a huge deficit right from the start.
(250/200)
2 = 1.5625. You therefore get more than 1.5 times as much grindstone with the T-7 compared to the T-4.
I could not figure out how to quote and reply at the same time so please read my acknowledgements on the following items.
I recently watch two Tormek T4 videos. The one video was questionable, but includes two interesting statistics. According to the video, the motor of the T4 is rated for 10,000 hours and the T7 motor is rated for 25,000 hours.
This struck me as odd, so I send am email to support.tormek.se for verification. To my surprise, Stig replied (promptly) that the motor hour ratings were correct.
The above was quoted from a Ken S submission.
(250/200)2 = 1.5625. You therefore get more than 1.5 times as much grindstone with the T-7 compared to the T-4.
This is a reply to my own submission, the reply is from Herman.
It cannot be any clearer. You get 2 1/2 times the motor life and 1 1/2 times more grinding stone upon purchase of the T7. The difference in price does not rate the T4 as a good buy. I know that the cost of the body is likely the same, that is the motor housing within a few cents. It seems to me that the unit cost would have to be at least half the cost of the T7 for consideration. I mean half, not two thirds. While either should last the life time of the casual use buyer and even beyond; the T4s cost is not in line with its designed planned obsolescence.
This thread is right on the money. It has summed up my recent experience with the Tormek system. I used to do woodworking for a living, but that was years ago. I still have some beautiful chisels and planes, that haven't been as sharp as they should be for many years. This past Saturday, after an old colleague noticed the terrible condition of my tools, I was embarrassed and decided to look for a better way to restore and sharpen my tools.
At first I purchased the T4, thinking that as a non-professional, I would never need the heavier duty T7. However, it wasn't until I got it home that I realized that the T4 doesn't come with any jigs whatsoever (the sales guy at my local Woodcraft store didn't know that either, because he told me it did have the square edge jig). Without question, I knew I needed the square edge jig for the chisels and plane blades, and I suspected that I'd need the truing and dressing jig at some point to keep the wheel square and flat. Together, those added up to half the difference in price between the T4 and T7. That only left about a difference of $130. Further, when I turned on the T4 (never sharpened anything on it though), it seemed alright, but not well balanced (maybe that was just the copy that I had). Then I started to rationalize that the wheel on the T7 was significantly bigger (and that would also leave a slightly less hollow grind, making the edge a bit stronger), had a better, stronger motor, and also had the longer catch tray (I have a DeWalt 12" planer, and figured that I could sharpen those blades in the future, as well as long kitchen knives) as well as a longer guarantee.
I strongly recommend that anyone that is considering the T4, more than likely, unless money is a huge issue, you should go with the T7. The T7 is definitely the value model.
I can't imagine that Tormek will have very good sales numbers on the T4.
Hi,
This discussion is good to follow.
The machines are different for different needs, don´t let us forget that. If you are only into knifes, lets say you are a chef or a hunter, the T-4 with a knife jig is a very good buy. It will last for decades. I do know processional woodturners who has the T-4 and love it so it works for them too.
Also, many buy the T-3/T-4 for the size. Its easier to carry around when needed.
If you are into woodturning or in a business like carpentry, furniture-builder and so on (professional) , the T-7 is the machine that will meet all the demands.
Stickan
Quote from: elliowb on January 07, 2015, 07:57:39 AM
Together, those added up to half the difference in price between the T4 and T7. That only left about a difference of $130. Further, when I turned on the T4 (never sharpened anything on it though), it seemed alright, but not well balanced (maybe that was just the copy that I had). Then I started to rationalize that the wheel on the T7 was significantly bigger (and that would also leave a slightly less hollow grind, making the edge a bit stronger), had a better, stronger motor, and also had the longer catch tray (I have a DeWalt 12" planer, and figured that I could sharpen those blades in the future, as well as long kitchen knives) as well as a longer guarantee.
So you returned the T4 and bought a T7?
Your experience is shared by many others, and that's the value in the marketing strategy of having a less-than-optimal model at a price that's a bit more than half. Instead of rationalizing the value of the more expensive model all in one step, the customer can "step" into it by first rationalizing the value of the less expensive model.
Yes, I did return the T4 and go with the T7. I think I see what you're saying Herman: the leap all the way up to $665, without having first purchased and returned the $399 machine, would certainly have been more difficult. That's an interesting marketing strategy, it seems to have worked in my case.
Certainly, I can see that someone who only needs to sharpen knives might be better served by the T4. However, for the average woodworker, even non-pros, I think it's a tougher decision.
One thing that I've learned as I've gotten older (and as my income has increased) is that I'm usually much happier to have purchased the higher quality item. This appears to apply for the Tormek as well.
Bill,
I'm sorry you have had a bad experience with purchasing a Tormek. I have had the chance to compare the T4 and T7 leisurely in my shop. My T7 has served me well for five years. I also happen to like the new T4. although I have not had the opportunity to use it much.
I believe the T4 is the victim of overworked theory and poor marketing. Since hollow grinding was (and probably still is) a longtime traditional method generally done with six inch grinders (occasionally eight inch), I think the hollow grind = weak edge thing is overblown. Adding three to five degrees to the bevel angle easily compensates for any possible weakness. i also think the "30 minute duty" thing is more theory than a real world handicap. In my case, the operator would tire before the motor.
The marketing strategy of "not paying for unused jigs" seems to me like a smoke screen to meet a price point for sales. I believe there are some very valid reasons to choose the T4. Price is NOT one of them. I would think more of the marketing strategy if a discount was given on accessories purchased with the unit.
Unfortunately, Tormek machines are often poorly shown at dealers. I was at a dealer last weekend. The T7 was sitting on the bottom shelf and the two T4s were still in the box in the bottom shelf. The jigs were on middle shelves. Not very high marks for marketing.
I believe the quality of the T4 and T7 is equal, factoring in their intended purposes. Almost all of the parts are the same. The thickness of the EZYLock shafts is identical. Comparing the two Tormek models to table saws, I would compare the T4 to a Delta Contractor's Saw and the T7 to a Unisaw. Both are good solid tools, but which would you prefer to bring to a job site?
I am convinced that the primary factor in deciding which Tormek to purchase should be where it is used. If one has the luxury of a large shop and a sharpening station, by all means, the logical choice is the T7. The New Yankee Workshop episode where Jeff Farris demonstrated the Tormek for Norm Abram and Norm built a sharpening work station for it is a perfect illustration of a T7 environment.
However, for a small shop, one which may have to be moved from time to time, or a mobile sharpening service, I think the T4 might be just the ticket. A person turning pens or small things on a mini or midi lathe would hardly require or want the book and weight of a thirty pound model Tormek.
Your situation illustrates the need for better marketing and sales.
I hope you enjoy your T7. Just like in carpentry, some practicing of the fundamentals will help..........
Good luck and do keep us posted.
Ken
Ken,
More informed salespeople would have helped and a display or the chance to try out the machines side-by-side would certainly have helped as well. At my local store neither model were on display and they only had one of each model in the box. Luckily, they accepted the T4 return without any hassle whatsoever. At least I didn't have to deal with shipping (I just moved from an area where the nearest woodworkers shop was at least 4 hours away, so having a shop that is only 15 minutes away is great).
I agree that the difference in the hollow grind is small, though I was speaking at the margin. I originally learned to sharpen my tools using a bench grinder and stones, so the ability to quickly touch up the edge with a stone kept the work moving and was something that I valued. At that time, having a set of mortising chisels with a larger angle did take care of the weaker edge caused by hollow grind. Certainly with sharpeners like the Tormek, it may be less important.
I've already sharpened my set of Marples chisels, a bench plane blade, a rabbit plane blade, a couple of kitchen knives, and an old Buck knife. I'm very happy with the outcome and how little time was required. A great addition to my little workshop. I now look forward to sharpening rather than dreading it.
Good job, Bill.
It would have been fun to have had a cup of coffee with you and enjoyed your pleasure at returning your tools to active duty status. I had a set of Marples chisels for years. I gave them to my nephew to help get him started. Hold on to yours; the Irwin "Marples chisels" aren't the same.
Keep on sharpening and keep on posting.
Ken
ps I've had several carpenter friends over the years. They always did good work, however, I suspect your newly sharpened chisels would put you toward the head of the pack!
Quote from: elliowb on January 07, 2015, 03:33:08 PM
the leap all the way up to $665, without having first purchased and returned the $399 machine, would certainly have been more difficult.
Many potential customers are turned off by the price of an item. That statement is so obvious that it goes without saying, but it lies at the heart of marketing strategy. I was turned off by the price of a Tormek for many years. I wanted one, but had difficulty rationalizing the price.
Good point, Herman.
I just purchased several inexpensive "sharpening chisels". I want to increase my sharpening "flight time", and did not want to wear out either my grandfather's Stanley 750 chisels or the new Lie-Nielsens I have been gradually acquiring.
The price of the new chisels was right, but I am definitely not looking forward to the laborious task of flattening and polishing the backs which should have been done at the factory. In that regard, fine chisels and Tormeks are a bargain!
It amazes me how people pay enormous amounts for vehicles which will be replaced or worn out within a few years and think fine tools like the Tormek are too expensive.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on January 07, 2015, 05:56:28 PM
Good job, Bill.
It would have been fun to have had a cup of coffee with you and enjoyed your pleasure at returning your tools to active duty status. I had a set of Marples chisels for years. I gave them to my nephew to help get him started. Hold on to yours; the Irwin "Marples chisels" aren't the same.
Keep on sharpening and keep on posting.
Ken
ps I've had several carpenter friends over the years. They always did good work, however, I suspect your newly sharpened chisels would put you toward the head of the pack!
Thanks Ken,
I had a rare opportunity back in the 80s to apprentice as a ships carpenter and sparmaker on the Elissa Project down in Galveston TX. I learned most of my fine carpentry skills then. However, I also learned a great deal from my dad; he pretty much single handedly built the two houses we lived in when I was growing up.
I definitely prize the Marples. They are the old English steel, boxwood handled firmer chisels. Works of art in themselves. My winter project is to repair the bottom of the 16 foot wooden dory-skiff that I built about 30 years ago. So, I'll need good sharp tools to do a proper job.
Quote from: Herman Trivilino on January 08, 2015, 04:28:08 AM
Quote from: elliowb on January 07, 2015, 03:33:08 PM
the leap all the way up to $665, without having first purchased and returned the $399 machine, would certainly have been more difficult.
Many potential customers are turned off by the price of an item. That statement is so obvious that it goes without saying, but it lies at the heart of marketing strategy. I was turned off by the price of a Tormek for many years. I wanted one, but had difficulty rationalizing the price.
Herman, I think that part of it is that we've been habituated to cheap products through, for lack of a better term, the 'Walmartization' of the product market. I teach finance now and I'm continually amazed at how frequently consumers go for the cheap up front cost and fail to factor in the total cost of a product or service (or more frequent replacement).
-- Bill
Bill,
What a great opportunity, working as a ship's carpenter and sparmaker! I'm jealous. My opportunity like that got away. In 1970 I was working at the Hurricane Island Outward Bound School ten miles off the Maine coast. A recruiter visited the school looking for teachers for a square rigger based school. Alas, I was two years away from my degree. It would have been fun. No complaints; Outward Bound was a great adventure in itself. Sadly, the twenty six day survival course (designed for the Welsh merchant marine during WWII) has morphed into week long "adventure" classes.
Keep those prized classic Marples chisels sharp.
Chris Schwarz recently posted an interesting blog entry about chisels. His recommendation for those wanting to purchase a first set of chisels is to buy one premium half inch chisel. He believes that one size will probably suffice for many people. He recommends adding a second size only when necessary for the job at hand. This wisdom also reflects my father's life. I still have the half inch chisel which was the only chisel he owned for much of his life. He kept it sharp and used it often. Sadly, many will never experience what a quality tool can be.
Chris' blog and writing is time well spent.
Ken
People do tend to believe that the price at Walmart (and other big box stores) is the price we "ought" to pay for things. That's justified for exact-match items because profits and labor costs are trimmed to the bone at big box stores. There are two other categories of products, though, items that are of a higher or lower quality, and items that can't be bought at big box stores. Tormeks and luxury cars are an example of the latter. The former, though, is where the quality factor comes in to play. Many people are just not willing to pay that higher price for better quality, and so end up throwing lots of stuff away as it wears out. That's a foolish practice especially when it comes to items that are built into our houses such as cabinets, flooring, and counter tops.
Whilst Im sure everyone here knows more than I do. I brought a 2000 and have loved it for many years, both for wood-turning tools and I love cooking and have a range of decent chef knives.
It is now getting a little tired and deserves a rest. If it was a horse, I' consider it a family friend and put it out to grass.
Something which seems to be dismissed I feel out of hand in the comments. PRICE.
A T4 with some bits, which I don't actually need but it comes with them normal price all in, paste , oil the lot is around 400GBP.
A T7 with a special offer and not including anything much, is the best price I found 799 GBP.
Hence price is very significant. I have a decent job and can pay but I also look at what my needs are.
Almost in the business sense of cost vs benefit.
Whilst in my wife's opinion, I spend too long in the workshop, it is not my job. Sometimes someone asks me to make something and they pay me for it. That wont pay the bills.
The 2000 still works and has never failed. This most defiantly brings the T4 back into the picture.
What justifies the extra near double price ? And do I need it ?
I decided , It would be difficult enough to explain spending 400 on a device to replace a device which still works. The real cost is 400 + lots of chocolate and flowers plus a nice meal out. Call it 500.
Or 800 for the same reason, not sure if I could afford the choc, flowers and night out ........
When to her, why the heck are you buying anything ? Good question .....
Look at this one , it is the same, does the same and only costs 120......... Explain .......
I'd love to hear how you explain that to a rational woman with no feeling for engineering, she does have an excellent business head ...... and does not accept its too difficult to explain, you would not understand and she does not take prisoners when it comes to anyone trying to BS her or spending our income?
She does have a point ...
To preserve my marriage, I went for the T4. Thus avoiding an expensive diverse ( and loss of home and workshop ) . Hence it comes back to the cost :)
Please take this with a touch of humour, the questions are real enough.
Best wishes.
Welcome to the forum. You are joining us as an experienced Tormek user. You wrote:
"I brought a 2000 and have loved it for many years, both for wood-turning tools and I love cooking and have a range of decent chef knives.
It is now getting a little tired and deserves a rest. If it was a horse, I' consider it a family friend and put it out to grass."
That could cover numerous conditions. Would you please elaborate?
Some situations, like a burned out motor (a very rare condition), probably warrant complete replacement. I would email Tormek support (support@tormek.se) and seek their experience before making a decision on this. As mentioned in one of the online classes, motor trouble is usually just a defective condenser, not a big deal.
Two items which should be upgraded are the truing tool and the support bar. The revised version of the TT-50 is definitely a major improvement over the older pre TT-50 model. The most recent US-105 universal support bar with microadjust used in conjunction with the TT-50 is a must to keep your grinding wheel true. If your stone grader is worn smooth, a replacement would be beneficial. (The US-103 included with your T4 has microadjust. You won't need to purchase another support bar. The same with your T4's stone grader.)
If you have maintained your mainshaft bushings and your shaft is not rusty, you can get by without replacing it. Unless your grinding wheel is worn to less than 200mm, you don't need to replace it.
Personally, I would not replace a working 2000.
Why the price difference between the T4 and the T7/8? There are several valid reasons:
The T7/8 has a heavier duty 200 watt motor.
The T7/8 has a larger grinding wheel. (Compare replacement wheel costs.)
The T7/8 includes a TT-50 truing tool and an SE-77 square edge jig.
These are the principal differences. Do you "need" these things? I would answer, "it depends". The T4 uses all the Tormek jigs, as does the T7/8. Some situations favor the larger models. If you realistically plan to sharpen all day often, you should favor the larger models.(incidentally, I include the 2000 with the larger models.)
I think of Tormeks like vehicles. A four cylinder SUV is quite sufficient for my needs and desires. If I felt I needed a large V8 and a larger vehicle, I would probably want a T8 Tormek. I believe you will find your T4 very adequate for your needs.
Keep us posted.
Ken