Are we able to sharpen Japanese knives both single bevel and double bevel on the Tormek and if so how. I don't know if I will ever come across any but if I do I don't want to be buying one unless it is for myself not as a replacement.
If you know of any videos showing a Japanese knife being sharpened on the Tormek I would appreciate the link
Thanks!!!
You would sharpen a Japanese knife basically the same way as a Western knife.
Here's a discussion of the issue: http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=236.0
Several of the videos I have seen, say sushi chefs like to go to a much higher grit then the base Tormek stone. (specifically sushi chefs)
Since the Japanese chef I know isn't in town (works in Omaha), I am wondering if you, Herman think the SJ stone might be better for SOME things, or if it is more just a personal preference?
Thanks
I've never used the Japanese Waterstone but from what I've been told it would probably be too fine to sharpen a really dull blade.
The Original Grindstone graded fine followed by the leather honing wheel should do it, but you could use the Japanese Waterstone with success as long as you kept the knife sharp.
The sushi chef I know says he sharpens his knife every night by hand. He doesn't wait for it to get dull.
Quote from: Herman Trivilino on July 13, 2014, 08:50:58 AM
The sushi chef I know says he sharpens his knife every night by hand. He doesn't wait for it to get dull.
That is along the lines of what I was thinking. Using the SJ stone more as a maintainer.
On another note, the last of my "needed" Tormek stuff arrived yesterday. (Turner setting tool and video) Prior owner didn't have those, or know where they went. Good thing too, because I picked up an old 1940 lathe at a garage/pre estate sale.
"The sushi chef I know says he sharpens his knife every night by hand. He doesn't wait for it to get dull."
I think Herman's friend, the sushi chef, got it right. Frequent regular sharpeining makes the job easier, and the cutting is always done with a sharp knife.
Would the same principle apply to other tools? :)
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on July 13, 2014, 10:57:30 PM
Would the same principle apply to other tools? :)
Most definitely. In a perfect world. When I worked as a carpenter it was the opposite of a perfect world when it came to sharpening. The only thing I ever saw sharpened with success were the 7.25-inch circular saw blades we used in our power saws. Not the carbide tipped ones. My friend showed me how to do it with a file while holding the blade between the knees. We didn't have a vise.
slightly off topic I accept but you've reminded me....anyone have a known to work technique of sharpening bandsaw blades?
Rob, I'm sure this is not the answer you have ben hoping to read: Hand files a tooth at a time. My standard blade is a 1/2" 3 tpi blade. This is obviously less work than a finer toothed blade. I have not actually sharpened my blade, however, I have seen it done at a workshop.
Ken
Quote from: Rob on July 14, 2014, 01:17:48 AM
slightly off topic I accept but you've reminded me....anyone have a known to work technique of sharpening bandsaw blades?
If you buy a new one it'll be sharp. ;D
Quote from: Ken S on July 14, 2014, 01:57:14 AM
Rob, I'm sure this is not the answer you have ben hoping to read: Hand files a tooth at a time. My standard blade is a 1/2" 3 tpi blade. This is obviously less work than a finer toothed blade. I have not actually sharpened my blade, however, I have seen it done at a workshop.
Ken
Yup...I've seen that method used too. I also tend to centre on 1/2" 3 tpi because that's ideal for cutting up green wood blanks. But I have a 16" throat bandsaw and even at 3 tpi that's a lot of teeth! I'm hoping to find a non too costly solution that speeds things up a bit.
Looks like you could get good at this and do about 1 tooth/second or so
http://www.woodturningvideosplus.com/resharpen-bandsaw-blades.html
Or if you are not too much of a perfectionist I suppose this might work:
http://woodgears.ca/bandsaw/sharpening.html
Also:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UygEQ-079Ws
Or, for $1,200:
http://www.logosol.ca/toolbox/automatic-band-grinder/
Rob, I really don't enjoy posting things I know you won't like. However:
You are a computer/business guy. Calculate what you value for an hour of your productive time. I would guess hand filing a bandsaw of your size (my 14" throat with riser is around 104") might take about half an hour. This may or may not be a reasonable guess. What is the cost of good quality blade?
Also factor in the satisfaction you would gain from restoring your bandsaw blade. That's important. Weigh that against the satisfaction you would gain from spending the same time turning. That's also important.
I still like the idea of using a (sharp) hand file. Once you get a good rhythm going in very good light at a comfortable working height, I think you might be surprised with how quickly the operation goes. Find a good recording of Bach's Goldberg Variations. You will be through before the harpsichordist.
A good reserve plan is to make sure you always have a couple new blades on hand. This will allow you to sharpen the blades when it is convenient, not when it is necessary to continue a project.
A couple strokes per tooth, and soon the job is done.
Ken
I've got several spare new blades for just that reason. What file would you recommend then Ken because I really am a little light in that department but I'm happy to give it a go.....just cos its you :-)
Half an hour mind....that's the limit :-) Can I listen to Vivaldi's Four Seasons?
Rob, I checked my library. Lie-Nielsen says it may be possible to sharpen impulse hardened bandsaw blades with a diamond file or a carbide burr in a Dremel tool, but he recommends against it. Older carbon steel blades can be sharpened with a small round file.
As much as it goes against my Yankee thrift, it's probably better just to put a new blade in. (In truth, I would probably keep some old not quite sharp blades for rough work.)
Ken
ps The Goldberg harpsichordist will still be cranking out the tunes when the Vivaldi crowd has left the hall for the local pub.
I did try a dremel burring tool and after a fashion it worked but I wasn't happy with it to be fair. Perhaps the various master composers will have to get a hearing another time while I put on another new blade.
Rob,
Just in case you or anyone reading this is not comfortable changing bandsaw blades, there is an excellent Taunton DVD by Mark Duginske called Mastering the Bandsaw. I had the opportunity to study with Mark twenty years ago. Ever since that class changing and setting up my bandsaw is a simple routine operation. I recommend Mark's DVD highly.
Ken
Rob, Someone named Rob from England has already asked and found answers for this question on this forum. Grepper and Ionut had answers. Do a search for "bandsaw". Here is a partial quote.
Ken
Rob
Hero Member
Posts: 1023
London, England
Can you hand sharpen bandsaw blades?
« on: March 12, 2013, 02:36:02 pm »
Quote
I appreciate this isn't strictly Tormek related but the knowledge re all things sharpening in this forum is invaluable
I find when I'm cutting turning blanks its not long before the bandsaw blades go off the boil and at about £15 a pop, id rather sort them at home than keep shelling out the wedge
To me, sharpening a band saw blade looks like a lot of work!
http://www.thisiscarpentry.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/100_2010_1.jpg
http://www.garymkatz.com/ontheroad/Hull-Oaks%20Lumber/45-100_2011.jpg
Quote from: grepper on July 15, 2014, 04:41:59 PM
To me, sharpening a band saw blade looks like a lot of work!
http://www.thisiscarpentry.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/100_2010_1.jpg
http://www.garymkatz.com/ontheroad/Hull-Oaks%20Lumber/45-100_2011.jpg
wow...that's a bandsaw blade :-)
Quote from: Ken S on July 15, 2014, 12:59:07 PM
Rob, Someone named Rob from England has already asked and found answers for this question on this forum. Grepper and Ionut had answers. Do a search for "bandsaw". Here is a partial quote.
Ken
Rob
Hero Member
Posts: 1023
London, England
Can you hand sharpen bandsaw blades?
« on: March 12, 2013, 02:36:02 pm »
Quote
I appreciate this isn't strictly Tormek related but the knowledge re all things sharpening in this forum is invaluable
I find when I'm cutting turning blanks its not long before the bandsaw blades go off the boil and at about £15 a pop, id rather sort them at home than keep shelling out the wedge
You see that proves senility is setting in....cant even remember my own posts!!!
Quote from: Herman Trivilino on July 12, 2014, 05:02:45 PM
You would sharpen a Japanese knife basically the same way as a Western knife.
Here's a discussion of the issue: http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=236.0
It always seems I am late to the party.
I built Herman's HK-50 Jig and have been using it ever since with my Japanese Knives.
Both single and double bevel.
using the manufactures recommended bevel set up the Jig for the appropriate grind angle.
I use either the SG-250 or the SB-250 to establish the Knife bevel and polish the blade bevel with the SJ-250
If you polish the blade using the SJ-250 on a frequent basis you will never need to get out the SG or SB stones.
I have one really hard steel blade FUJIWARA MABOROSHI GYUTO 180MM the SG-250 would not touch the steel but the SB-250 established the blade bevel in two passes and the SJ-250 has been polishing the edge ever since.
Using the Tormek with the HK-50 jig replicates the Japanese water stone sharpening technique with the precision of the Tormek.
Impressive knife you have there! HRC 64-65. (That same hardness was listed on all of the sites I could find that had that knife.)
Is this it?
http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=89005
That's up there with the hardest kitchen knives I've seen. No wonder the standard wheel would not touch it. I've seen the same thing on a couple of knives, only to find out later that they were very hard steel. If you don't know what's going on it can be very frustrating. You can sharpen and sharpen and sharpen and nothing happens! And, it feels distinctly different on the wheel than knives that have junk for steel that won't get sharp.
Just curious, how does the edge hold up? Is it prone to chipping?
Quote from: courierdog on December 09, 2014, 03:52:19 AM
I have one really hard steel blade FUJIWARA MABOROSHI GYUTO 180MM the SG-250 would not touch the steel but the SB-250 established the blade bevel in two passes and the SJ-250 has been polishing the edge ever since.
What's the bevel angle on that knife?
Quote from: courierdog on December 09, 2014, 03:52:19 AM
Quote from: Herman Trivilino on July 12, 2014, 05:02:45 PM
You would sharpen a Japanese knife basically the same way as a Western knife.
Here's a discussion of the issue: http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=236.0
It always seems I am late to the party.
I built Herman's HK-50 Jig and have been using it ever since with my Japanese Knives.
Both single and double bevel.
using the manufactures recommended bevel set up the Jig for the appropriate grind angle.
I use either the SG-250 or the SB-250 to establish the Knife bevel and polish the blade bevel with the SJ-250
If you polish the blade using the SJ-250 on a frequent basis you will never need to get out the SG or SB stones.
I have one really hard steel blade FUJIWARA MABOROSHI GYUTO 180MM the SG-250 would not touch the steel but the SB-250 established the blade bevel in two passes and the SJ-250 has been polishing the edge ever since.
Using the Tormek with the HK-50 jig replicates the Japanese water stone sharpening technique with the precision of the Tormek.
Hi, guys. I'm new to the forum and this seemed an appropriate point to jump in. I have a couple of "Zen and the art of knife sharpening" kits (Edge Pro, Wicked Edge) and came to Tormek via the WE forum. I was very surprised (not to say dubious) at how easy it seemed to get great results quickly so I bought one. I have a set of Tojiro Santoku kitchen knives. These are Damascus steel with a hard (60-62 Rockwell?) core. The vegetable knife looks like a cleaver so my wife took it to be one and hacked two huge holes out of the edge. I had a go at fixing it with the WE but it was going to take forever. I put it on the Torkem + at 200 grit and after a few passes had taken about 1/32" off the whole edge. I then went straight to the leather wheel and shaved paper immediately. Very impressive. I notice on that blade and on a slicing knife I did at 1000 grit that I have scallops into the edge, obviously due to my lack of technique. Should I sharpen away from the blade, at least until I am used to the Torkem? I seem to be taking liberties with the metal at the moment :).
Gerald.
Welcome to the forum, gwelsby. :)
Practice, of course, makes perfect. After a while you will find what works best for you on different type s of steel.
Sharpening into the wheel, as you suggest, is more aggressive than with the wheel rotation. Give them both a try so you get a handle on the difference.
You can also try applying less pressure. Smooth strokes across the wheel will give you a fine, even edge.
Get some old, junker knives and have some fun! Sharpen with and away from the wheel. Press hard, press lightly. Grind away without moving the blade and watch what happens. Then maybe try to get the edge flat again. Use the wheel on both coarse and fine grades of abrasiveness. Play and experiment!
Steel of HRC 60+ can take a while, even using a coarse wheel.
Spending some time with some junk knives gives you the ability to learn and not care. You'll probably be surprised at how quickly you get good at it, and will have a much higher confidence level the next time you sharpen one of your good knives.
Quote from: gwelsby on January 18, 2015, 03:33:08 PM
I notice on that blade and on a slicing knife I did at 1000 grit that I have scallops into the edge, obviously due to my lack of technique.
Try again and see if the imperfections remain in the same spots. If so I suspect that they were there all along. All you did was polish them making them easier to see.
Completely unrelated to the thread but with respect to Japanese knives (global in my case), I received a ceramic "steel" as a xmas pressie. Absolutely superb for tickling back the edge on global knives...truly excellent.
Rob,
you are right about the search function here. I saw your post earlier and decided to reply now. Took me ages to find it again.
Yes, ceramic hones are great. As long as you use them gently and at an angle slightly greater than the sharpened angle you can put a micro bevel back several times before needing to touch up with the Normek.
Gerald.
Hi,
I'm replying to this old thread on the original topic of sharpening knives with one sided bevels.
Also, I'm new to the forum and I'll blame Stig for bullying me to join and share my experiences in knife sharpening with the machines.
I've done some experimenting and the sad object is a Global G-14.
First with a standard set up with the longer knife holder and as low angle I could without grinding the knife holder it self. That resulted in an almost 4mm wide sharpening edge. Still this method is carving a quite formidable ditch in the way wider sharped edge and is in no way a good solution.
So, next I tried the side of the stone. Al the time keeping the original angle by hand and trying to stay in the damp. This was not that effective either as the stones are not constructed to be very wear ant tear resistant on the sides so the buildup of stone dust in the water was quite big.
Also I tried holding the knife by hand and sharpen the whole edge and point the knife along the same angle as the stone, again not very easy.
Until further development and experimenting is done i recommend traditional sharpening of knives with a single sided bevel.
Really it is the easiest way of keeping this kind of knives in shape. Do it often and do it properly and you will never have a dull knife.
Right now i'm running the T-2 through some heavy testing. I will come back with more on that in a near future.
Best regards
Magnus
Welcome to the forum Magnus and thanks for sharing experience with your Global knife. :)
In my understanding your longer bladed G-14 knife has a chisel version of the flat zero bevel grind. The bevel angle may be some 12.5o, as used in Japanese cutlery.
Using Tormek knife jig you create hollow grind, which means you slightly reshape the blade. It may be challenging to reshape your 12" long blade, esp. to keep the same bevel width along the whole blade.
Jan
With apologies to President Teddy Roosevelt, "Bully for you, Stig!"
Thanks for posting, Magnus.
Ken
What is the T-2?
Do you work for Tormek by chance?
Magnus,
I am unfamiliar with Sundqvist (AB?). I am guessing it is a knife making company.? Would you please give us some background information.
Thanks.
Ken
Hi,
Yeah, some more background information, of course :)
I've been referred to earlier in this forum by Stig as "The Global dealer in Sweden".
Our family business is wholesale dealer of high end equipment for the kitchen.
We handle 14 brands and serve B2B, and retail in Sweden. My grandfather started the business back in the 40's and has been a old school dealer who mostly handled hunting knives and scissors he had a one man show going way into the 90's. Today the company employees 28 people and is run by my brother, my father is the head chairman, and my position is Product Manager.
Some years ago Stig came to us to hear what we thought about Tormek machines and quickly we found them to be really well built and easy to work with.
So by now i have a T-7, a T-3 and a T-2, all the stones, almost all the jigs and a sharpening station. I've sharpened knives in almost every shape and in every state of abuse and i really like the machines. Knives with SG-2, SG-5, VG-10, Molybden/Vanadium, Cromova 18, 18/8, 18/10 have all visited my stones and it's been great fun.
I've had some training by Mino Tsushida in wet stone sharpening and have sharpened quite a lot of knives by hand. Demonstrations in shops and for vip-costumers are also quite common and some times full on lectures where I teach knife manufacturing, handling, storage and sharpening up to 200 people at a time. Some times I bring a Tormek and take sharpening orders in the shops of our costumers. All to raise awareness of maintaining your tools in the kitchen.
So, I'll happily answer all I can and also do some more experiments if you want me to try something out.
Ask Stig about the T-2.
I've done some reading in the forum and you guys are really good att resharpening stuff, I thing we'll make good friends :)
Best regards
Magnus
Thanks for your interesting information, Magnus! :)
As far as I know, Tormek T2 is kitchen knife sharpener designed for gastronomy. It is equipped with Tormek fine diamond wheel, 200 mm diameter. The wheel is not cooled by water. T2 is derived from T4, but does not use the US concept. It has a special knife jig - spring clamp, which enables to sharpen bevel angels in the range from 8° to 22°. Maximum knife blade thickness is 3.5 mm. The honing wheel is conical, made of some composite material.
Jan
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rIQBB9J_GM0
For those of us who understand English only, at least you can see a picture of it.
Elden,
The very little I know about the T2 gives me the impression that it is a highly specialized sharpening system designed for restaurant use, as opposed to the multipurpose regular Tormek models. Presumably, in a restaurant, a limited range of cooking knives would receive very regular tune up sharpening. I would expect these knives to be dull from professional (trained) use as opposed to abused. No good chef would abuse his expensive knives. I would expect the same care expectations from a restaurant owner for his fine cutlery.
It appears to have the same motor as the T4 (wired for European power in this case). I was pleased to see that, as I have always felt the T4 motor is a trooper. It is used dry with a magnet to catch off grindings. It has a limited angle range, suited for kitchen cutlery. It will not handle wide hunting knives. It is a specialist's tool.
The regular Tormeks (Supergrind, T4 and T7) must be able to handle a much more diverse work environment. One day may bring chisels which have chipped edges as well as being very dull or abused. (Chisels unafraid of nails!) Plane blades with nicks. Knives which are well past dull and may have broken tips or substantial nicks. Turning, carving, scissors, drill bits; this Tormek must be a "Tormek for All Seasons". It must also be priced for a wider market.
I gather that at this point the T2 is only available on a very limited bases in Sweden. i hope it proves successful enough to be expanded to a world market.
Ken
Ken, Elden, on Tormek web page http://tormek-prokitchen.com/ (http://tormek-prokitchen.com/) you can find PDF leaflet for T2 written in Swedish. The page informs, that T2 is sold in Sweden through Martin & Servera, the leading wholesaler for the catering industry in Sweden.
Jan
Good researching, Jan.
If you copy paste the pdf into google translate, you can get a fairly good translation of the document in many languages, including Czech.
Ken
Thanks Jan and Ken.. The tapered honing wheel is interesting.
Elden,
The tapered honing is an interesting feature. I think it could be very useful for cutlery and a nuisance for almost everything else!
Ken
The new T2 is cool. :) For me it has three interesting features: the fine diamond wheel, the tapered honing wheel and the new knife jig – spring clamp.
The tapered honing wheel should enable honing long knives without grindstone removal. It probably works without honing compound.
Jan
I put the diamond wheel from the T-2 on a T-4 to try it out with some jigs and man that thing can eat steel!
The knife had a quite nasty damage of 2,2 x 4 (mm) so quite a lot of steel needed to be grinded of.
It took just minutes...
The knife was a Shun chef 8'.
Thanks for your post Magnus. It is god to know, that the diamond wheel is good for reshaping knifes. :) Hopefully, it will not wear out too quickly.
Jan
Magnus,
When you used the diamond wheel from the T2 on the T4, were you using it wet or dry?
Ken
Dry, I don't think it's designed to run wet. Probably due to corrosion or such.
Quote from: Magnus Sundqvist on April 14, 2016, 02:53:26 PM
Dry, I don't think it's designed to run wet. Probably due to corrosion or such.
Thanks.
I read one discussion on another diamond wheel for the Tormek (also wasn't available in my country), and they recommended it be run wet, with less water though (just enough to touch the diamonds and remove metal from the wheel).
True sushi chefs sharpen daily (or have their apprentices do it) on a flat waterstone - 4000, 6000 or even 8000 grit.
When I see a sushi knife it is for repair, usually at the hands of a non-Asian chef. I re-grind the bevel on the Tormek until all chips are gone, polish the bevel and return to waterstones on the flat side to finish the job.
Double bevel Japanese knives are sharpened just like Western knives, as Hermann said.
I have been fortunate enough to have learned a lot from Steve. The more I learn, the more keenly I become aware of the depth of knowledge I have yet to learn. The process is ongoing and both frustrating and rewarding.
Ken
May I ask what grit the new T-2 Diamond wheel is?
That will probably require an answer from Sweden during the work week. None of us outside of Sweden has seen one.
Stevebot
Let me trouble you for your experience in the number of "Japanese" knifes that you have sharpened. I put that in quotes, because I have mixed information about their knives.
I don't know if it is by style, or use, or target buyers.
How many of the knives you have done are one sided, verses dual bladed?
Do you find it by a certain style of knife? (example the sushi knife)
I saw one thing that said, the way Japanese people use their knives, they are more of a slicing motion and hence the one sided, 15 degree bevel, with a flat back.
Yet some of the "Japanese" knives I see, are clearly targeted towards western cooking.
and thank you!
That sharpening guy,
I have an unconfirmed report from a source in Sweden which states the diamond wheel is 360 grit.
Correction: I decoded the message incorrectly. My source tells me the grit is 600.
Ken
Thank you Ken!
See correction in reply 55 above. Sorry about the mixup. My Morse Code is a little rusty.
Ken
SharpenADullWitt,
I sharpen very few single bevel Asian knives, usually for s western chef because the Asian chefs DIY.
The majority of what I call Japanese knives are of the Shun or Global variety - harder steel sharpened at 15 degrees. Wusthof is now also doing this with their PTec knives. I use the leather wheel of the Tormek to polish the edge of the bevel without increasing the angle much. I get BESS readings of 100 to 200.
By contrast I sharpen most other kitchen knives at 18 primary bevel and add a 22 to 24 degree secondary bevel with 1500 grit. BESS readings are 250 - 350 but they slice better and hold an edge longer.
Quote from: stevebot on May 06, 2016, 04:51:11 PM
By contrast I sharpen most other kitchen knives at 18 primary bevel and add a 22 to 24 degree secondary bevel with 1500 grit.
Interesting! Is the secondary bevel established for the customer's future steeling?
If only the customer could steel that accurately. I do sell a ceramic steel with a guide that duplicates this edge, but I send most customers home with a Rapala ceramic pull through that can straighten burrs and do a little honing but does not damage the knife,
Thank you Steve!
Steve &
Dave, please help me understand how to do
single bevel Japanese knives with Tormek.
I read your comments, still cannot match it with the classic method.
Quote from: stevebot on April 15, 2016, 01:56:46 PM
True sushi chefs sharpen daily (or have their apprentices do it) on a flat waterstone - 4000, 6000 or even 8000 grit.
When I see a sushi knife it is for repair, usually at the hands of a non-Asian chef. I re-grind the bevel on the Tormek until all chips are gone, polish the bevel and return to waterstones on the flat side to finish the job.
Quote from: courierdog on December 09, 2014, 03:52:19 AM
It always seems I am late to the party.
I built Herman's HK-50 Jig and have been using it ever since with my Japanese Knives.
Both single and double bevel.
using the manufactures recommended bevel set up the Jig for the appropriate grind angle.
I use either the SG-250 or the SB-250 to establish the Knife bevel and polish the blade bevel with the SJ-250
If you polish the blade using the SJ-250 on a frequent basis you will never need to get out the SG or SB stones.
I have one really hard steel blade FUJIWARA MABOROSHI GYUTO 180MM the SG-250 would not touch the steel but the SB-250 established the blade bevel in two passes and the SJ-250 has been polishing the edge ever since.
Using the Tormek with the HK-50 jig replicates the Japanese water stone sharpening technique with the precision of the Tormek.
With classic whetstones, as I sharpen the bevelled side on coarse - medium - fine stones, before changing to the next finer stone, I do a few passes on the back side.
In other words, with each grit, having done the bevelled side, I do the flat back side, just enough passes to deburr, and then change to a finer stone and continue sharpening the bevel.
This is not practical when sharpening the bevel with Tormek, since to do the flat back side on whetstones I would have to remove the knife from the jig, and having done the back side, would have to re-mount it back in the jig to continue sharpening the bevel on Tormek finer grindwheel.
I understand you sharpen the bevelled side on TORMEK grindwheel #220, then #1000, then SJ or hone - BUT when do you deburr and hone the flat back side?
Do you prepare the flat side before going to Tormek to do the bevelled side? If you do, what grit whetstones do you use?
Do you do the flat side between Tormek grindwheels #220 > #1000 > #4000/honing while doing the bevelled side?
Do you do the flat side only after you have sharpened the bevelled side with Tormek? If yes, what grit whetstones do you use for this?
Wootz, I don't see how it would be any different than sharpening a wood chisel. Assuming the flat side is, well, flat, it would never touch a grindstone. Only the honing wheel.
Thank you Herman.
It didn't come to me they are similar to chisels, probably because I haven't sharpened a single chisel in my all life.
Wootz, based on my experience with chisels, the back of a tool should have the same degree of smoothness as the bevel.
Deeper scratches on either side of the metal surface, caused by low grit stone, can serve as stress risers, which can initiate fatigue cracks or some other defects especially near the edge.
I smooth the back side of the tool freehand on the side of the stone before I start to sharpen the bevel using the jig.
Jan
Appreciate your input, Jan.
I thought I should ensure the flat side is truly flat before switching on the Tormek.
Now that you have confirmed this, I'll be polishing the back side on whetstones before sharpening the bevel.
One 'but' though... about the side of the stone? I tried it a few times with discouraging outcome, and then I stumbled on this Ionut's observation:
"I wouldn't flatten a tool on the side of the Tormek stone for two reasons, there are no real means to true and maintain a perfectly flat side of the stone and secondly the speed difference between the abrasive particles closer to the center of the wheel compared to the ones closer to the grinding surface would lead to uneven grinding action on the tool..."
I agree with you! My experience is based only on chisels where the requirements are milder. Until now I have not sharpen one sided Japanese knife. I will probably buy one as a teaching aid. :)
Jan
If you buy a chisel in the home center or a hardware store you'll likely see that the back has machining marks on it. These need to be removed. It's a one-time thing, and never needs to be repeated. Some find that the side of the Tormek grindstone works well enough, but others find that they prefer to use another method.
I would generally recommend against buying a chisel at a hardware store or home center. All too often they are the shorter "butt" chisels, used by carpenters in the fiels for installing butt hinges. For a sharpening chisel, you will want the longer length "bench" chisel.
Avoid shiny chrome looking chisels. The intersections of the sides and back on these have a radius instead of a square intersection. The thickness of the radius must be removed in order to have a sharp edge. You probably will not live long enough to flatten these chisels.
Avoid the temptation to buy sets. You want a couple Irwin Blue Chip three quarter inch bevel chisels. Irwin is the Chinese reincarnation of the old Marples made in Sheffield chisels. I think the old Marples chisels were better tools. The Irwin are adequate chisels for sharpening practice.
If you are looking for chisels for serious woodwork, look at Lie-Nielsen or Veritas. Both are quality products. Start out with a half inch. Add other sizes only if needed.
Please read the first fixed topic in Tormek General.
Ken
On the chisels, generally you only flatten the back inch, as it would take way more time to flatten the whole back. With bench chisels, you may flatten the back again at some other time, since they are longer then butt chisels. (why I have seen and tried the side of the Tormek stone for flattening, as compared to a knife that is longer)
I still prefer to flatten them on my water stones, as I also like to keep them in a different area, where I tend to use the chisels. That way I can do frequent touch ups where using a chisel and maintain practice with them.
Irwin was mentioned, and I think they are even sold in some home centers as well as places like Woodcraft, etc. I prefer the older Marples (and have some that I picked up over the years, most of a full set), but those are not even considered good chisels, but beginners chisels in the woodworking circles I am aware of. I picked up one Two Cherries chisel in a size I didn't have, and once picked up Narex mortising chisels when they were on sale.
Since that time and because I like refurbishing old tools, and feel the need to practice, I would say look for a garage sale chisel, personally. A lot less then Lie-Nielsen or Veritas, and might be better then some of the bargain chisels I see out there.
This topic is drifting away from Japanese knives.
We should differentiate between flattening and polishing. We should also differentiate between the back of a tool bowing inward (convex) and bowing outward (convex or having a "belly"). Having a chisel bowed slightly concavely is not a problem. Flattening is only done enough to make the top and bottom of the back coplaner. Japanese chisels are intentionally made this way.
The problem is when there is a belly in the back. When the chisel back is resting against a flat surface like the wall of a mortise, the sharp edge tends to be lifted.
The entire back does not need to be finished. SADW is correct in stating that the final inch is adequate for polishing, as long as there is no belly.
In recommending the Irwin blue chip chisels, I only mean as sharpening chisels. I would not buy a set. I bought five: two are 3/4". In hindsight, I wish I had purchased all five in 3/4". I bought them for sharpening testing, not for woodworking. I agree with SADW; I think the older Marples chihels are better tools.
My recommendation for L-N or Veritas was for one chisel, preferably a half inch. These quality tools have excellent steel, balanced nice handles, and the backs are properly flattened at the factory. I am not a believer in buying sets. I had a full set of Marples chisels. Half of them were unused or rarely used. Buy a top quality half inch chisel and only add sizes when you can identify a clear need. Having two of the most used size is not overkill. Someone correctly mentioned that the fastest reload is a second gun. The fastest sharpening in the middle of a project is having a second chisel. Having one of each of the top lines gives you an excellent comparison for when you want to add additional sizes.
If these two brands are too rich for you, the next best choice is quality vintage tools like Buck or Witherby. The Stanley 750 series is also quite good, although collectors have driven up the prices.
A sharp edge is the intersection of two planes. Both planes are equally critical. No not neglect the backs, regardless of the tool.
Ken
Folks, for me it is a pleasure to see the unselfish exchange of experience and opinion convergence. I think that nicely fulfills the sense of this forum and perhaps even something more. Thanks for that. :)
Jan
Jan,
As one of our wise members says, "Iron sharpens iron and one man sharpens another." I believe we all grow from an open minded and courteous environment.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on May 23, 2016, 10:55:11 PM
I would generally recommend against buying a chisel at a hardware store or home center. All too often they are the shorter "butt" chisels, used by carpenters in the fiels for installing butt hinges. For a sharpening chisel, you will want the longer length "bench" chisel.
Carpenters rarely mortise for a hinge, Ken. Doors come prehung and cabinets built in the field have overlay doors. Fine woodworkers like yourself will use bench chisels. So will cabinet makers.
A few weeks ago I had to hang two replacement interior doors in existing jambs for a friend of the family. I was paid, and used a router to do the six hinge mortises. The only time I'd use a chisel would be on an existing door jamb since the door stop is in the way. Of course, a chisel still has to be used to tune up the mortises, particularly the corners. And I used a chisel to do the mortises for the face plates because there is little wood left to remove once the hole is bored.
So, yes, your comment is essentially correct in that a carpenter in need of a chisel will buy one at a home center, mostly because he's in a hurry and will already be there buying materials. The sad truth is that most of those chisels will never be sharpened. They will be used as chisels until they're too dull, then they'll live out the rest of their lives in a tool box or drawer, occasionally being pulled out to disappoint the user. Their life ends as pry bars or paint can openers.
My collection of chisels has come from those drawers and tool boxes, and thanks to my Tormek, been given a second life. I think that a 3/4" chisel is the best for these purposes, and I agree that having extras on hand is essential. Especially if you have "helpers" on the job who won't hesitate to use them to pry nails out of their way!
Herman,
Sadly, I must agree with you. Of the three carpenters who worked on my house over the years, only one occasionally sharpened his chisels. The other two, who were able carpenters, considered them sharp when new and never resharpened them.
I know almost all doors are prehung today. The term butt chisel is, I believe, a leftover from another era.
Ken
where can I get the T2 in UK
or the wheel and the jig????
Bob,
Here is the UK agent for Tormek. I suggest you telephone them.
UK Agent
BriMarc Tools & Machinery
Unit 10
Weycroft Avenue
Axminster
Devon
EX13 5HU
Tel: 0333 240 69 67
Fax: 0333 240 69 76
email@brimarc.com
www.brimarc.com/tormek
Ken
Hi,
T-2 is available in Sweden, Norway and France and is sold thru Kutlery/kitchen resellers, not our importers for T-8 and T-4.
Best,
Stig
Quote from: Stickan on December 01, 2016, 09:50:42 AM
Hi,
T-2 is available in Sweden, Norway and France and is sold thru Kutlery/kitchen resellers, not our importers for T-8 and T-4.
Best,
Stig
Isn't that along the same lines as its predecessor, the T-4000?
What is your reasoning for not selling to the rest of the world? Certification? (NSF, and the like)
Happy New Year Stig,
What are the chances of me getting a T2 with all the info. here in U.K.
Also all the users replies and video tube of their uses there of.
Cheers.
Bob
( The Knife Grinder )
Bob,
Search ebay for "tormek t2". This is neither a recommendation for or against the seller.
Ken
Ken, he is in the UK. They have a tunnel now, that he could drive over to France, and might even be able to get answers for us in the USA.
Hi,
In time the T-2 will be available in more countries.
For a sharpening business the T-2 is maybe a complement for a T-7/T-8.
T-2 is for the serious amateur chef, resturants and larger kitchens who has no experience of a Tormek or in sharpening in general.
Best,
Stig
Stickan
Could the T-2 be used on serrated knives, both to sharpen them, and to convert them to a straight blade knife, once it is wore out?
SharpenADullWitt,
No, straight edges only. Most serrated knifes dont have the same blade as a regular blade though. They are more flat on one side so I don't recomend converting them to a straigh edge.
Best Stig
The more I think about the last post by Stickan, the more I get this expression. :o
I understand we are on the T-2 topic and it may not be good at converting. I just found some irony that true Japanese knives that I am aware of (at least Tanto style), have a flat side and a sharpened side.
Tomorrow I intend to convert my two wore out serrated knives to something closer to the boning knives, they seem to use the same blanks for. (these are two sided, Dexter Russell)
SharpenADullWitt,
I guess you mean Sashami knifes, which are sligtly hollowed/flat on one side and a long flat edge on the other. Those can't be sharpened on a T-2 if you dont think its ok to have a secondery bevel on them.
A Tanto knife was historicly a stabbing weapon and modern Tanto knifes has a angled shape to be able to pentrate tough materials.
I have a Sashami knife which I haven't been in need of sharpening yet and I doubt that i will do it on my Tormek. I don't use it much as we don't make the kind of food it is designed for either ;) And I think I can hone it several times before I need to put it on a stone.
Best,
Stig
One sided sharpened sashimi knife is just fine to sharpen with Tormek. I have done several.
Most difficult are the ones that are made of very hard SS, so I use the SB wheel which I use more than the SG now a days.
As for serrated knives I do half way and sharpen a straight line instead of the rounded tip and tell the owner that it can be done once and sometimes twice. It get incredibly sharp and dangerous.
But after it become dull he has to decide whether to straighten it and make it regular chefs knife or to reshape and profile with serration again. As I don't do it myself I either send to a colleague that have the right tools for it or I ask to pay him a visit.
Just yesterday I got 2 serrated knifes that was broken and they asked what to do. I recommended reshaping and sharpening half way. Then later to decide what they want to do with the knifes.
unfortunately I forgot to picture the knives before reshaping the front. Was late at night.
I don't know if the link will work but it's from a food and beverage show in Israel last month.
I was filmed just as I was sharpening a one sided beveled Japanese knife.
https://www.facebook.com/Zeev.Schuster/videos/1342429392467799/?hc_ref=PAGES_TIMELINE
If it doesn't work try copy paste. Se from min.2. And sorry it is in Hebrew :)
Thanks for posting the serrated knives story, Wolfy. :)
I always like to see when things serve until the ultimate end and not being thrown away immediately when a problem arises. This is especially true for knives made of high quality steel. ;)
Jan
WolfY,
I enjoyed your video. Listening to it reminded me of being in one of my favorite places, which just happens to be a Tormek dealer. Keim Lumber is located in Charm, Ohio. Charm is a very small Amish village. Over a century in business, Keim Lumber has grown from a sawmill to a very large hardware and lumber store. One could easily purchase $20,000 worth of woodworking machinery or be just as comfortable purchasing a $.49 pack of sewing pins. In addition to speaking English, the store staff and many of the customers speak the Amish dialect of German. I enjoy eavesdropping. My German has deteriorated over the years. I don't understand most of the conversation. I just enjoy listening to other languages being spoken.
I did not realize that "waterstone" and "Tormek" were Hebrew words; I thought they were Amish, as is "router bit". :)
Jan, in the US, we have an expression, "Yankee thrift". In this case, Yankee refers to people from New England, the northeastern region of the country. My maternal side were all New Englanders. Over the years, I have come to realize that their thrift was more about use than saving money. They are often very generous, but like to see an object worn out through use than just discarded. Like you, I value that.
Ken
Jan,
I inherited a number of tools from my father when he passed on. He took Yankee thrift to the limit !
In a back part of one toolbox are two old knives that my father sharpened away but never threw away. I've a picture below of two that got relegated to marking knives (I guess).
(http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w419/richcolvin/Old%20Knives%20Never%20Die_zpswamzhdm9.jpg)[/URL]
Kind regards,
Rich
Rich,
Your father was a true Yankee!
Ken
Ken and Rich I have appreciated your perfectly documented explanation of "Yankee thrift". :)
I know a saying which become popular in US during the WWII: "Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without" which applies to me. I am not sure who is the author, may be the pre-war US president Calvin Coolidge who was New Englander.
Rich, in this country the marking knives are sharpened only on one side because the other is following a ruler edge. ;)
As a true Yankee I have to add that the smaller knife shown above can serve well as a penknife to cut a nib of a quill pen. Traditionally the feather is taken from goose left wing! :D
Jan
Quote from: Ken S on January 12, 2017, 11:44:51 AM
WolfY,
I did not realize that "waterstone" and "Tormek" were Hebrew words; I thought they were Amish, as is "router bit". :)
Ken, glad you enjoyed the VDO and got some nice memo's out of it too.
"waterstone" and other words you recognise btw the Hebrew are typically foreign words mixed in the daily spoken language as it is easier and more natural to describe with them what you are trying to say. There are Hebrew words for almost everything but don't sit right when used. Add to that that the guys Hebrew is quite poor although he he has been in Israel over 20 years. His mother language is Russian, so parts of his presentation in the VDO was quit funny language wise. :)