I have developed a method for simple adjustment of the grinding angle with the knife jigs SVM-45 and SVM-140.
Coarse adjustment is done by setting the distance of the universal support to the stone in steps of 5mm.
The fine adjustment is done with the adjustable stop of the knife jig.
The required adjustments for a certain grinding angle are listed in tables.
Tables are made for stone diameters from 240-180mm, in steps of 10mm
The method is documented in PDF-files which can be downloaded from Dropbox:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zfzeuyyhors8oid/Yyq5S71LxR (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zfzeuyyhors8oid/Yyq5S71LxR)
• "Grinding angle adjustment Booklet.pdf" should be printed two-sided on A4 paper.
You can then staple and fold it as an A5-booklet. It should also fit on 'US legal' size.
• "Grinding angle adjustment A5 serial.pdf" , is the A5 serial version, for storing in iBooks on iPad.
This document is also attached at the end of this message
20180702
At the request of "cbwx34" I developed mathematics for use with its robust "jig-fix" as published on https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3570.msg22912#msg22912 (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3570.msg22912#msg22912)
The new formulas can also be used to choose a different reference point for the distances than the center of the jig's stem, which is unclear and inconvenient.
As a result, the setting of the sharpening angle can be determined more accurately.
Some measurements were also made from which possible sources of error appeared.
The new document is titled "More math for the Tormek grinder"
You will find the documents in the public folder "Tormek-T7 grinder":
https://bit.ly/2lHaR3m (https://bit.ly/2lHaR3m) on DropBox
https://bit.ly/2KpROFg (https://bit.ly/2KpROFg) on OneDrive
The new documents are:
• "More math for the Tormek grinder A5 serial.pdf", serial version for tablet
• "More math for the Tormek grinder booklet.pdf", A5 booklet to print on A4
This document is also attached at the end of this message
• "USB adjustment table.ods", spreadsheet to generate the new table
20221021
New tables, useful for Knife Jig KJ-45
With the new Self-centering Knife Jig KJ-45, the projection distance can no longer be adjusted, due to the lack of the adjustable stop. My tables, however, were based on coarse adjustment with the USB and fine adjustment with the adjustable stop. These are therefore no longer usable with the KJ-45.
Forum member Perra has created a spreadsheet to generate other tables useful for the KJ-45.
See https://forum.tormek.com/index.php/topic,4885.msg37010.html#msg37010 (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php/topic,4885.msg37010.html#msg37010)
You measure the projection-distance (between stop and knife edge) and the table gives you then the correct USB distance to the stone for a certain grinding angle.
The stone diameter is one of the parameters to be set
20221031
cbwx34 added the link of available calculators: Knife Sharpening Calculators (https://bit.ly/3KbWmwX)
20230505
Benjamin Hung "benhung" has made a graphical representation of the relationship between the various parameters. This will give you a good understanding of how it works. The values of the set parameters are displayed and can therefore also be used as a calculator for the grinding angle.
You will find the message on:
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php/topic,5254.msg38240.html#msg38240 (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php/topic,5254.msg38240.html#msg38240)
and the graphics on
https://www.geogebra.org/m/wwuqbvhh (https://www.geogebra.org/m/wwuqbvhh)
Finally, Benjamin has posted an extensive and amusing explanation in this topic at https://forum.tormek.com/index.php/topic,1849.msg38339.html#msg38339 (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php/topic,1849.msg38339.html#msg38339)
20221025
Attached documents
Well that was quite comprehensive. Well done and thank-you for the introduction of trigonometry to blade sharpening :-)
Out of interest, how long have you been using your method and what results can you report (anecdotally I appreciate)
Thanks. :)
I started with this method in august 2013. I calculated the settings with a hand-calculator.
It turned out that it was indeed easier than the method described in the handbook, once you know the settings.
Then I made a spreadsheet to generate a table and made some notes for a report.
Last december I made all the tables and the document.
Recently I decided to share it with the Tormek community.
Regarding 'results', there is nothing to show. It works fine.
I can not report on 'efficiency' because I use the grinder only for my own tools and knifes as hobby, not for my profession.
By the way, I added a note to Table 4 (Stone diameter 220mm) that it can also be used for the honing wheel. ;)
The documents have been updated.
Interesting discussion of edge angles for kitchen knives, there. I have found that with the Tormek there is no need for secondary bevels because knives never get "harder to sharpen" on a Tormek. As to the perfect edge angle, well, that's elusive. I've found that it depends on the type of cutting you do with the knife. For me, I like my paring knives at 30o (15o on each side). Butcher knives 40o.
If I have a nice pocket knife I usually try to match the manufacturer's original edge angle.
By the way, I know we'll never resolve the terminology issue, but what you're calling the grinding angle is what Tormek calls the bevel angle. To me, the edge angle is the angle at which the edges meet. So the edge angle is twice the bevel angle on a typical knife that's ground symmetrically on both sides.
Excellent work, Dutchman. I downloaded your booklet into the ibook pdf collection on my ipad. (Quite easy to do. just tap on the upper right corner of the open document. "save to ibooks"will appear. tap that and it is done. I mention this because it took some trial and error to discover it.)
You have made a major effort and have done the hard work. I will refer to your booklet several times. The next time I sharpen my kitchen knives I will spend a little extra time and study to incorporate your ideas. That time will be well rewarded in both efficiency and precision for all future sessions.
Anyone unwilling to learn this new method will remain in the primitive trial and error era.
Your ideas can be applied to sharpening other edges (chisels, plane blades, etc.)
Thank you and keep up the fine work.
Ken
Thanks Ken.
I was wondering if my method would attract proper attention.
Your answer completely reassured me.
Ton.
Ton,
When this forum is really working at its very best, ideas begin, are shared, and grow. One of the best examples of this is the small knife jigs produced by members (Ionut and Herman). The original idea for these jigs was my post (#854, Jan 28, 2011). I described some jig ideas. Ionut made a working jig from these ideas. Herman also made another fine jig. Unfortunately, Ionut has been inactive for quite a while. Herman has done great things with his small blade jig....everything from small blades to machetes.
You might be interested in some chisel thoughts (with fixed standard distance and blade projection) I posted a while back (post numbers 821 and 822 of February 2011). They have a similar flavor (on a much simpler level) with your well developed knife sharpening thoughts.
I hope you will continue to post. You have very good ideas, and the willingness to see them come to fruition.
Ken
Hello Ken,
You refer to certain postnumbers which I would like to read.
How do I find or search these posts?
I don't see where and how the posts are numbered.
Re: Simple adjustment of the grinding angle
« Reply #7 on: Today at 03:01:53 am »
^
Ton,
I found the post numbers by clicking onto my name and selecting "show posts".
I did this only after having no luck with the site search function. (I have not had much luck with the site search function.)
I am no computer genius, however, the setup of the numbering system seems flawed. Individual post number one is the most recent post. That means by now my post #854 is probably #856. For someone with half a dozen posts, that's not a problem. With people like Jeff Farris, Herman, Rob, or me, with plus or minus a thousand posts each, that's very clumsy.
Just reversing the numbering system to first (oldest) post being #1 would improve the situation greatly.
I propose a better solution. Instead of quoting post numbers, the poster would make life easier for all of us by copy pasting the post or part of the post. The poster would need to note who is being quoted and place quotation marks. Personally, I have found that easier than using the site's quote feature. Or, for those who prefer to use the quote feature, just use it. The point is let's provide the reader with the answer rather than a roadmap of how to hopefully reach the answer.
I normally wouldn't post this much, but here is the copy paste of those three posts. By the way, after bisecting my torlock jig, I realized I did it wrong, Jeff Farris made an excellent suggestion. If you are interested, I will share that experience in another post.
Ken
Here is the copy paste:
854
General Tormek Questions / Re: Free hand sharpening
« on: January 28, 2011, 11:31:38 am »
The ideal solution would be to visit your local authorized Tormek dealer and purchase an SVM-15 Small Knife Sharpening Jig. Unfortunately, that won't work. Tormek doesn't make such a jig. So, here's my 'Plan B":
Start with an SVD-110 Tool Rest. You may already have one. If not, they are inexpensive and versatile.
For clarity, I will refer to the SVD-110 as the "Tormek platform". The part you make will be the "blade platform".
I suggest you start by making a mock up. Mine was just three layers of cardboard cut to 2" x 8" and a couple clothespins. Quarter inch plywood or Masonite would be ideal. Beveling the underside of the mockup piece will let you get closer to the wheel. I just staggered the cardboard layers.
Set up your Tormek with the universal support bar in the horizontal position (wheel revolving away from the blade). Install the Tool Rest jig. Place the mockup (henceforth referred to as the blade platform) on the tormek platform. For starters, place it lining up with the left edge of the Tormek platform and protruding about two inches beyond (toward the stone). Secure with the clothespins. Set with the angle jig to 20 degrees. Follow the general Tormek safety practice of allowing 2mm (3/32") clearance between the jig and the grinding wheel.
I used my pocket Swiss Army knife with the prototype. The small blade rests on the blade platform. DO NOT TURN ON THE POWER. With the blade resting on the blade platform, swing it to follow the arc of the edge. Notice the two inch dimension matches the width of the grinding stone. This lets you position both sides of the blade without moving the jig.
Using the mockup prototype will let you see how much platform protrusion you want. YOu want it short enough to be rigid and long enough to swing the blade arc. Making the mockup requires very little time and no cost. It will speed the end result.
Once you have decided to proceed, you will probably want to add some shoulders on the bottom side of the blade platform to register against (rest against) the Tormek platform. This will keep the platform from shifting. I would consider an ideal final shape to be wide enough to allow shoulders on both sides of the Tormek platform, with the protrusion notched to two inches (to match the width of the wheel). I would place a shoulder under the front edge for the shortest protrusion you wish. The back shoulder could either be placed for this position or moved back to allow a longer protrusion when needed.
Vise grip makes a nice small plier type of clamp which allows for the back of the Tormek platform not being parallel. This clamp can be pre adjusted and popped on and off as needed. A regular C clamp ("G cramp" for those of you who still speak English) would do fine.
I use Baltic Birch Ply for lots of stuff. Unless you use metal, the water from the wheel will create a harsh environment for your jig. Paint it, or otherwise seal it. It probably won't last "forever", but should give good service.
This simple jig will not give the ease of use the regular Tormek knife jigs do. It should give you more control over the angle of the bevel. You must lay the blade flat on the platform; the jig does not actually hold the knife.
I would suggest starting very gingerly with the stone fully graded fine, or, as mentioned by Gary, on the leather honing wheel if the knife is not very dull. The coarse stone can be used to rapidly create "nano knives" which may not please your customers.
I hope this helps.
Ken
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821
General Tormek Questions / Re: switching between wheels
« on: February 12, 2011, 04:36:00 pm »
Steve,
I don't do movies. However, the movies on this website can help you. Watch the movie associated with the TTS-100. It will show you how to set the distance from the stone to the universal support bar using the TTS-100. (I suggest using the thirty degree setting.)
With the distance set, switch to the WM-200 setter. Watch the film on the site associated with this jig. Set the protrusion of the blade for the angle you want. Do not change the distance of the bar; change the length of the protrusion to achieve the angle you want.
The back of the TTS-100 has three protrusion lengths for turning tools. One of these may happen to fit the length you want for your blade. If so, use it and note it for future reference. If not, you may make a sharpie line on one of the lengths to correspond with the length you want. Making a kine of a piece of cardboard or plywood would also work. Be sure to label it.
When you switch wheels, just set the new wheel to the same TTS-100 setting as the original wheel. The two point design of the TTS-100 automatically calibrates the universal support bar to the same angle.
The same method works with the leather honing wheel.
Good luck.
Ken
822
General Tormek Questions / switching between wheels
« on: February 12, 2011, 12:17:53 pm »
In the Woodworking post ("a note to Steve", Jeff made this comment regarding changing the grinding wheel from the general wheel to the 4000 grit wheel:
"If the diameters are different (and they are) you will have to readjust the Universal Support height, but there's no reason to make any adjustments to the jig."
I have been investigating the possibility of using the TTS-100 for setting the height of the universal support bar when sharpening chisels and planes. Its two point design automatically self corrects for wheel diameter differences. When using just one wheel, this seemed overkill. However, it might simplify switching back and forth between different grit (and diameter) wheels, and also with the honing wheel.
Here is how the procedure works"
1) Using the TTS=100, set the universal support bar to the lower setting (the thirty degree setting).
2) Set the length of the tool projection from the SE-76 to the correct angle, using either the Angle Master or black marker. Note this length and make a gage block or cardboard marker.
3) After switching grinding wheels, set the new wheel with the TTS-100 just as you set the first wheel. The two point alignment system should automatically realign the tool at the original projection length.
Ken
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Jambe,
I know it is frustrating not to get replies about the Multi Tool. I have never thought it is forbidden to discuss it on this forum. The forum is Tormek based, and Tormek foots the bill. However, in my opinion, the Tormek and the MultiTool do different functions, albeit with some crossover.
You are the first person in my limited memory on this forum to mention actually owning a Multi Tool. Persons posting about the Tormek drill bit jig have the same lack of coverage problem. I don't own a Multi tool. It looks like a very useful tool.
In my case, I found an ancient Dayton belt grinder at a nearby yard sale for $25. The disc sander was missing (still missing); the motor had been rewired with lamp cord; and the pulleys and belt were a basket case. I rewired the motor and for another $25 replaced the pulleys and belt. It is no match for a Multi Tool, but is adequate for my needs.
I have found it to be a very useful tool. The wider belt on the Multi Tool would seem even more useful. I especially like being able to quickly and easily change belt grits.
I don't think you will find much experienced advice on this forum, but I hope you will post your thoughts on using it.
When Rob was purchasing a dry grinder to augment his Tormek, I recommended a NOrton 3X 40 grit wheel, or similar. The Tormek excels at sharpening. The dry grinder can remove more metal easily. I would not cripple the dry grinder by using a fine wheel. Use the Tormek for the fine stuff.
Do keep us posted.
Ken
Thanks Ton. This really helps a lot. Thank you for doing so much work.
RustD (Steven) :)
Hi Ton,
Since I first read your booklet, I couldn't stop admiring your work...
Your application of the cosine rule to Tormek is immaculate.
Thanks for the praise :)
Ken told me about your post after an e-mail about wooden shoes ;D ;D
Thank you Dutchman
As a matematician I can confirm your method and formulas, and as a new owner of my Tormek I can confirm that the method makes a lot of sense. Quick and easy.
Thanks
Laust
Lausts,
Welcome to the forum. I am pleased to see Dutchman is finally receiving the recognition he deserves for his ground breaking work. I am especially pleased when mathematicians endorse it.
Thanks for reviving a valuable post. I trust you are enjoying your new Tormek. I also hope your mathematician's mental wheels are turning. Dutchman's concepts are not limited to knives. We have much fertile ground waiting to be explored.
Keep posting!
Ken
Quote from: Dutchman on April 14, 2014, 07:45:09 PM
I have developed a method for simple adjustment of the grinding angle with the knife jigs SVM-45 and SVM-140.
Coarse adjustment is done by setting the distance of the universal support to the stone in steps of 5mm.
The fine adjustment is done with the adjustable stop of the knife jig.
The required adjustments for a certain grinding angle are listed in tables.
Tables are made for stone diameters from 240-180mm, in steps of 10mm
The method is documented in PDF-files which can be downloaded from Dropbox:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zfzeuyyhors8oid/Yyq5S71LxR (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zfzeuyyhors8oid/Yyq5S71LxR)
"Grinding angle adjustment Booklet.pdf" should be printed two-sided on A4 paper.
You can then staple and fold it as an A5-booklet. It should also fit on 'US legal' size.
"Grinding angle adjustment A5 serial.pdf" , is the A5 serial version, for storing in iBooks on iPad.
20140415
I have updated the file "Grinding angle adjustment Booklet.pdf"
because the text was not aligned correctly with respect to the papersize.
I can view all the pages in the drop box link except for the chart itself. I am getting error 404.
Thank you in advance.
Ton gave us a clean high-resolution version of his booklet, you can get it from our website:
Ton Nillesen trigonometry for Tormek grinder (http://knifegrinders.com.au/Manuals/Grinding_Angle_Adjustment_Booklet.pdf)
Quote from: Fredd on May 30, 2018, 12:51:55 PM
I can view all the pages in the drop box link except for the chart itself. I am getting error 404.
Thank you in advance.
In case Dutchman (Ton) checks... I'm not getting any error... it all shows up OK.
(Also, the chart is also in the booklet).
Dutchman's work is fundamental to our knife setting procedures. By all means, do whatever you have to to download/print it. It will serve you well!
Ken
this will also work well for the paper wheels. I've tried several different wheel sizes in the chart and it seems to be rite on.
Quote from: wootz on May 30, 2018, 12:59:38 PM
Ton gave us a clean high-resolution version of his booklet, you can get it from our website:
Ton Nillesen trigonometry for Tormek grinder (http://knifegrinders.com.au/Manuals/Grinding_Angle_Adjustment_Booklet.pdf)
Thank you.
Quote from: Ken S on May 30, 2018, 04:17:34 PM
Dutchman's work is fundamental to our knife setting procedures. By all means, do whatever you have to to download/print it. It will serve you well!
Ken
Agreed. Much appreciate all you are doing here. Very helpful.
At the request of "cbwx34" I developed mathematics for use with its robust "jig-fix" as published on https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3570.msg22912#msg22912 (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3570.msg22912#msg22912)
The new formulas can also be used to choose a different reference point for the distances than the center of the jig's stem, which is unclear and inconvenient.
As a result, the setting of the sharpening angle can be determined more accurately.
Some measurements were also made from which possible sources of error appeared.
More info can be found in the additive (dated 20180702) in my initial post on this topic:
Simple adjustment of the grinding angle (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=1849)
Quote from: Dutchman on July 02, 2018, 04:39:51 PM
At the request of "cbwx34" I developed mathematics for use with its robust "jig-fix" as published on https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3570.msg22912#msg22912 (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3570.msg22912#msg22912)
The new formulas can also be used to choose a different reference point for the distances than the center of the jig's stem, which is unclear and inconvenient.
As a result, the setting of the sharpening angle can be determined more accurately.
Some measurements were also made from which possible sources of error appeared.
More info can be found in the additive (dated 20180702) in my initial post on this topic:
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=1849 (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=1849)
This post translated....
I wrote a book, so cbwx34 would quit bugging me. ;)
Dutchman was a big help in me figuring this out... and yeah, I did bug him quite a bit. Huge thanks for his effort (and patience)!!!
Hi Ton!
This post i wonderful! I have actually tried to make a spreadsheet myself, but that didn't work out. But i am sure that following your math, it is going to work!
Thanks for sharing!
- Benny
Quote from: BennyJ on January 17, 2020, 11:37:51 AM
...
This post i wonderful! I have actually tried to make a spreadsheet myself, but that didn't work out. But i am sure that following your math, it is going to work!
...
Hi Benny,
In the published folder "Tormek-T7 grinder" you'll find also the spreadsheet "USB adjustment table.ods".
It is made with the Free and Open Source office packages "OpenOffice" and its successor "LibreOffice", but will probably also run with other office packages. You'll probably need to change the extension "ods"
Deleted. I accidentally pressed "Quote" instead of "Modify" ;)
Quote from: Dutchman on January 18, 2020, 11:14:15 AM
...snip... It is made with the Free and Open Source office packages "OpenOffice" and its successor "LibreOffice", but will probably also run with other office packages. You'll probably need to change the extension "ods"
Wouldn't it be necessary to open the ".ods" file in whatever spreadsheet program you have and then "Save As", thereby using that program to save the file in its format and apply its file extension? Simply changing the file extension could result in a different program having difficulty opening a file that is not actually in that programs file format.
Rick
Hi again Ton.
I have now tried to make a spreadsheet again. But I can't seem to get it to work.
I want it to calculate the height of the USB, vertically from the top of my Tormek T8. The same way as Knifegrinders App is working. The reason why i just don't buy the app is because i would like to be able to get the measurements for both the vertical USB stand and the horisontal at the same time, and over time also the FVB. So i don't need to use the program more than once, if I want to use both (all tree) USB stands.
I can't seem to get the math right though. If I input 12 degrees per side, and set the USB to the calculated height on my Tormek, i measure approximately 18 degrees per side with the Tormet angle tool (WM-200).
I have used http://cossincalc.com/ (http://cossincalc.com/) to help me get the calculations correct.
Do you by any chance have the time to look over my spreadsheet?
It is made in MS Excel, and saved as both .ods and .xlxs.
Onedrive link to my spreadsheet: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AvIzveHgBujUgoBVJhQfpIqGpQFXFQ?e=wncg5h (https://1drv.ms/u/s!AvIzveHgBujUgoBVJhQfpIqGpQFXFQ?e=wncg5h)
Thanks in advance! :D
- Benny
Quote from: BennyJ on January 18, 2020, 09:34:36 PM
Hi again Ton.
I have now tried to make a spreadsheet again. But I can't seem to get it to work.
I want it to calculate the height of the USB, vertically from the top of my Tormek T8. The same way as Knifegrinders App is working. The reason why i just don't buy the app is because i would like to be able to get the measurements for both the vertical USB stand and the horisontal at the same time, and over time also the FVB. So i don't need to use the program more than once, if I want to use both (all tree) USB stands.
I can't seem to get the math right though. If I input 12 degrees per side, and set the USB to the calculated height on my Tormek, i measure approximately 18 degrees per side with the Tormet angle tool (WM-200).
I have used http://cossincalc.com/ (http://cossincalc.com/) to help me get the calculations correct.
Do you by any chance have the time to look over my spreadsheet?
It is made in MS Excel, and saved as both .ods and .xlxs.
Onedrive link to my spreadsheet: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AvIzveHgBujUgoBVJhQfpIqGpQFXFQ?e=wncg5h (https://1drv.ms/u/s!AvIzveHgBujUgoBVJhQfpIqGpQFXFQ?e=wncg5h)
Thanks in advance! :D
- Benny
I looked at your spreadsheet.... I didn't review all the math, but your measurement '
j' should be from the center of the shaft, to the top of the casing of the T-8... and should be around ---
don't look if you don't want to know --- :)
29mm. (I say "don't look", in case you want to measure it yourself and not be biased)..
Or just measure directly to the wheel as done HERE (https://connect.calcapp.net/?app=qq0pg0#/) and it will satisfy all your needs in one calculator! :D :D
Wow.. No one has ever become one of my best friends that fast! You just did, cbwx34! ;) ;D
That was it.. I calculated wrong, i subtracted the 6mm from the calculation, instead of adding.
You just made my day! Thank you very much!
I am so happy right now!! I think i have used 40 hours on this ;).
(I have made a much bigger sheet, the one i showed you guys was just a little sample, of the most important.)
Thanks again!
- Benny
Quote from: BennyJ on January 19, 2020, 12:13:30 AM
Wow.. No one has ever become one of my best friends that fast! You just did, cbwx34! ;) ;D
That was it.. I calculated wrong, i subtracted the 6mm from the calculation, instead of adding.
You just made my day! Thank you very much!
I am so happy right now!! I think i have used 40 hours on this ;).
(I have made a much bigger sheet, the one i showed you guys was just a little sample, of the most important.)
Thanks again!
- Benny
Haha, you're welcome... very cool. 8)
Nice work, BTW. :)
Quote from: BennyJ on January 18, 2020, 09:34:36 PM
I have now tried to make a spreadsheet again. But I can't seem to get it to work.
I want it to calculate the height of the USB, vertically from the top of my Tormek T8. The same way as Knifegrinders App is working. The reason why i just don't buy the app is because i would like to be able to get the measurements for both the vertical USB stand and the horisontal at the same time, and over time also the FVB. So i don't need to use the program more than once, if I want to use both (all tree) USB stands.
Hi BennyJ,
did you try TormekCalc (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3919.0)?
TormekCalc 2 comming soon...
Hi jvh,
No, i had not seen your sheet. It looks really cool! I will try it out!
Thanks!
- Benny
Quote from: BennyJ on January 18, 2020, 09:34:36 PM
...
I want it to calculate the height of the USB, vertically from the top of my Tormek T8.
The same way as Knifegrinders App is working.
...
When setting the USB from reference points other than the nearest surface of the stone, you must take into account larger deviations jn the resulting grinding angle.
Thus, any inaccuracy in the diameter of the stone will immediately add to the deviation from the desired USB distance.
The method with the Kenjig, on the other hand, is accurate and very reproducible.
In the first post, at the start of this thread, I added an extension that references Perra's spreadsheet to generate tables for use with the KJ-45 that does not have an adjustable stop.
See https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=1849 (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=1849)
This topic has been made sticky so that it will always be at the top of the board. To ensure the availability of the most important documents, they are attached to the first post at the beginning of this topic.
The size of the booklet versions was outside the allowed limit of 1024Kb. However, the Adobe Reader app offers the option of printing the A5 documents as booklet on A4.
Quote from: Dutchman on October 25, 2022, 04:28:18 PM
This topic has been made sticky so that it will always be at the top of the board. To ensure the availability of the most important documents, they are attached to the first post at the beginning of this topic.
The size of the booklet versions was outside the allowed limit of 1024Kb. However, the Adobe Reader app offers the option of printing the A5 documents as booklet on A4.
Since this is a "sticky" I'll add this link here...
Knife Sharpening Calculators (https://bit.ly/3KbWmwX) available
... probably every app/calculator/spreadsheet made, came from, or was inspired by Dutchman's work. :)
Quote from: cbwx34 on October 30, 2022, 03:56:47 PM
...
Since this is a "sticky" I'll add this link here...
Knife Sharpening Calculators (https://bit.ly/3KbWmwX) available
... probably every app/calculator/spreadsheet made, came from, or was inspired by Dutchman's work. :)
Thank you. I have added the link to the first post of this topic.
How do you hide the link in the 'title'??
Quote from: Dutchman on October 31, 2022, 10:38:52 AM
Quote from: cbwx34 on October 30, 2022, 03:56:47 PM
...
Since this is a "sticky" I'll add this link here...
Knife Sharpening Calculators (https://bit.ly/3KbWmwX) available
... probably every app/calculator/spreadsheet made, came from, or was inspired by Dutchman's work. :)
Thank you. I have added the link to the first post of this topic.
How do you hide the link in the 'title'??
There is a little bit of trickery in the embedded link of cbwx34's post that I'm not familiar with, but I think it was cbwx34 who showed me the way that I am familiar with.
1) Highlight the text you want displayed when the URL is embedded in it.
How do you hide the link in the 'title'??
(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1849.0;attach=6854)
2) Using the link tool button on the tool bar above the message entry box, code is inserted for placing a URL in the text: [ url ][ /url ] but without the spaces, which I inserted so it would display here as text.
(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1849.0;attach=6856)
3) The highlighted text will show up between the brackets, like this (without the spaces):
[ url ]How do you hide[ /url ]
4) Put an equal sign (=) between the first "url" and the first closing bracket (])
[ url= ]How do you hide[ /url ]
5) Paste the URL between the equal sign and the closing bracket, URL goes here:
[ url=https://whateverlinkyouwant.com]How do you hide[ /url ]
- again, without the spaces between/next to the brackets.
The highlighted text will display as blue underlined text, indicating there is a link (URL) there that will be activated if clicked.
How do you hide... (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php/topic,1849.msg37105.html#msg37105) the link in the 'title'??
This one links to your message with the question. Here is the embedded text (with spaces added):
[ url=https://forum.tormek.com/index.php/topic,1849.msg37105.html#msg37105]How do you hide... [/url ] the link in the 'title'??
Rick
That is very clearly explained.
Thank you very much Rick.
Hi Ton,
Thanks for your invitation. It's my honour to be here, explain your formula to help new user.
To senior members,
First, I would like to say thank you. All sharing of your works & experiences are excellent, help many newbies quickly pick up sharpening skills. I learn a lots from you.
There are many way can reach goal, every method is good when we get there.
The method I described next, may not suit for you. I use a different view to look at Dutchman's Formula. I try my best to step into his shoes to understand what he thought. Different view point may cause confusion made it more complicate. Should beware.
To New users,
Congratulations, you are here. Dutchman's Formula is a gem. It's precision, effective and beauty. It also can be easily applied to real work, no adjustment needed.
Long story short, let's start. Want to master your sharpening machine, you have to understand the world of rotation. I made some animation to explain it.
First, I design 2 funny jig, mount a blade on it to compare with Tormek's knife jig. Watch how they work and what they are different. In the next few animation, you can zoom & drag to watch it.
https://www.geogebra.org/m/mszugnu3
Don't punch me, next link might make you more confuse. Don't worry, I will bring you back soon. Try drag speed bar to make it faster. The real moon's speed is faster than it.
https://www.geogebra.org/m/fq6vghg3
I put them on moon's orbit. They are self rotating, rotate around moon. Also drag by moon to rotate around earth. It's very complicate to figure out. How can we get which parts is stable? Which point we can approach?
Next link show how I approach.
https://www.geogebra.org/m/asprvpjg
I grab them from moon's orbit. Setup on my desktop. I have to make sure something fix and stable. Don't let the stupid orbit fool me.
Left bottom of the frame has a small stop/play button. Stop it, drag angle sliding-bar slowly to watch them carefully. Dutchman's real projection (I name it) and jig rotate radius are in there. Don't ask me how and why. The answer is inside the animation diagram. If you don't get it, look it again and watch it carefully.
(2023.05.12 Update: I modify diagram. Drag the green spot to any part of jig, you can easily figure out the rotating center.)
Ok, my demonstration is done. The next few link show Dutchman's formula. All the works is his, not mine. It's simple, clear and beauty. I won't do too much explain.
https://www.geogebra.org/m/trpp72ek
This link, I took away many things which may confuse you. Only left 2 circle link by knife blade. The blade angle is decided by two tangent line. It make sense, sharpening happen at the blade tip only.
The next link is Dutchman's origin theory. I didn't change anything.
https://www.geogebra.org/m/wwuqbvhh
The next is my solution to find Dutchman's projection and jig rotate radius. Last link is my calculator. All measure point is center (such as USB center).
https://www.geogebra.org/m/haxutcdv
Drag the jigs slide bar to watch, no matter the shape and protrude vary, the projection & radius is same.
https://www.geogebra.org/m/wndeq2gn
Best Regards,
Benjamin
Amusing :)
I added a link in my first post of this topic:
"Finally, Benjamin has posted an extensive and amusing explanation ..."
Quote from: benhung on May 06, 2023, 02:21:26 AMHi Ton,
Thanks for your invitation. It's my honour to be here, explain your formula to help new user.
To senior members,
First, I would like to say thank you. All sharing of your works & experiences are excellent, help many newbies quickly pick up sharpening skills. I learn a lots from you.
There are many way can reach goal, every method is good when we get there.
The method I described next, may not suit for you. I use a different view to look at Dutchman's Formula. I try my best to step into his shoes to understand what he thought. Different view point many cause confusion made it more complicate. Should beware.
To New users,
Congratulations, you are here. Dutchman's Formula is a gem. It's precision, effective and beauty. It also can be easily applied to real work, no adjustment needed.
Long story short, let's start. Want to master your sharpening machine, you have to understand the world of rotation. I made some animation to explain it.
First, I design 2 funny jig, mount a blade on it to compare with Tormek's knife jig. Watch how they work and what they are different. In the next few animation, you can zoom & drag to watch it.
https://www.geogebra.org/m/mszugnu3
Don't punch me, next link might make you more confuse. Don't worry, I will bring you back soon. Try drag speed bar to make it faster. The real moon's speed is faster than it.
https://www.geogebra.org/m/pr9xmngu
I put them on moon's orbit. They are self rotating, rotate around moon. Also drag by moon to rotate around earth. It's very complicate to figure out. How can we get which parts is stable? Which point we can approach?
Next link show how I approach.
https://www.geogebra.org/m/asprvpjg
I grab them from moon's orbit. Setup on my desktop. I have to make sure something fix and stable. Don't let the stupid obit fool me.
Left bottom of the frame has a small stop/play button. Stop it, drag angle sliding-bar slowly to watch them carefully. Dutchman's real projection (I name it) and jig rotate radius are in there. Don't ask me how and why. The answer is inside the animation diagram. If you don't get it, look it again and watch it carefully.
Ok, my demonstration is done. The next few link show Dutchman's formula. All the works is his, not mine. It's simple, clear and beauty. I won't do too much explain.
https://www.geogebra.org/m/trpp72ek
This link, I took away many things which may confuse you. Only left 2 circle link by knife blade. The blade angle is decided by two tangent line. It make sense, sharpening happen at the blade tip only.
The next link is Dutchman's origin theory. I didn't change anything.
https://www.geogebra.org/m/wwuqbvhh
The next link is my solution to find Dutchman's projection and jig rotate radius. Last link is my calculator. All measure point is center (such as USB center).
https://www.geogebra.org/m/haxutcdv
Drag the jigs slide bar to watch, no matter the shape and protrude vary, the projection & radius is same.
https://www.geogebra.org/m/wndeq2gn
Best Regards,
Benjamin
Nice work!
No real difference though... only to where you measure the Projection Distance. Everything else comes out the same. ;) (Just add 6mm to your answer.)
Most of the process... the measuring, data entry, etc., were simply designed for ease of use. For example, it's easier to measure (and maybe understand?) the Projection Distance from a solid point (the Stop Collar) vs. using a special device or "guessing" where the center is. (Although to be fair, some used a "special device" anyway.) The "math" is done behind the scenes, and all is based on Dutchman's work.
It would be interesting, instead of the random shapes you used... to apply it to something like the SE-77. I think if a wide variety of jigs were used, there might be some validity to having a device that "automatically" measured "f".
I looked at the actual calculator... impressive the work done to recreate the SVM-45.
Quote from: cbwx34 on May 06, 2023, 05:05:11 PMNice work!
No real difference though... only to where you measure the Projection Distance. Everything else comes out the same. ;) (Just add 6mm to your answer.)
Most of the process... the measuring, data entry, etc., were simply designed for ease of use. For example, it's easier to measure (and maybe understand?) the Projection Distance from a solid point (the Stop Collar) vs. using a special device or "guessing" where the center is. (Although to be fair, some used a "special device" anyway.) The "math" is done behind the scenes, and all is based on Dutchman's work.
It would be interesting, instead of the random shapes you used... to apply it to something like the SE-77. I think if a wide variety of jigs were used, there might be some validity to having a device that "automatically" measured "f".
I looked at the actual calculator... impressive the work done to recreate the SVM-45.
Hi cbwx,
The first time I got SVM-45, it also confuse me. I can't find its rotating center until I saw the knife jig you made. Your idea show the clarity of rotating center.
I modify SVM-45 a bit in diagram, soldering a piece of metal on it. You will see how similar they are.
https://www.geogebra.org/m/ufnydurj
I can not get the point without your nice jig. ;)
Sorry Ton, maybe I am out of topic. But I think this picture can show rotate center. No matter what kind of jig. When it bound on USB, the rotating center should be USB center. No exception!
Benjamin
I modified diagram for SVM-45 & SE-77
SVM-45 Calculator
https://www.geogebra.org/m/uk8cpnq7
SE-77 Calculator
https://www.geogebra.org/m/cdc2mfcc
I add Chord-tangent angle to SE-77 version. If you didn't use chord angle as second bevel, set blade thickness (t) as 0.
Benjamin