Tormek Community Forum

Hi,
I have had my T7 since early in the year and fiddled with getting my wood working chisels right.  I decided that seeingI have semi retired, I would be spending more time Iin my shed making sawdust, I might as well have the tools to do the job properly.
I purchased a tomek for school (industrial technology teacher) and it made a big difference to the quality of work the students  produced.
Now the cost had to come from my pocket, I looked at other cheaper brands but soon realised that you get what you pay for so a Tormek T 7 came home early in the year.
I got what I could afford with the idea of adding later (as finance allowed)
Chisels worked fine.  Even got the chisels from a builder friend of mine who used to sharpen his with an angle grinder. (Bevels all over the place)
As I was occasionally doing some wood turning , I got the gouge jig and multi jig when I gotthe t7 butwasnt having much success early on.  I ended up with funny flutes on the gouges and the skews looked ok but probably notthe best.
A month ago I launched into buying the wood turners booklet and DVD.  What a blessing.  THanks Jeff.
Watched the dvd many times now and my gouges are starting to look like they are supposed to.  Occasionally they look funny ie cutting lips going the wrong way.  I have now worked outhow to get rid of the point I used to create at the front rather than the finger nail shape.
The learning curve is working well and I glad I spent the extra to get the tormek.
When I get comfortable with my tools in the workshop, I mightlook at other jigs such as the knife jig as I  have many  fishermen friends who can pay in kind.
Thanks
Malcolm
Malcolm

Learning curve, especially in the sharpening of knives.
I have both Knife sharpening jigs plus I built the HK-50 style platform jig.
For my kitchen knives this has proven to be a very long learning curve indeed.
To this day I am unable by any means to produce an acceptable straight line sharpening edge on any of my knives.
I do end up with at least one concave portion of the blade.
It is not that I cannot achieve some sharp portions, rather, I cannot achieve a uniform sharp edge for the entire length of blade, on any of my knives.
I have watched all the video demos I can find but so far the Tormek perfection is eluding me.
This frustrates me to no end as I have had so much success with other forms of shaping and sharpening using the Tormek.
To prevent damaging more knives I have decided to only use the one knife as a sacrifice until I Learn and perfect the process.
I have put several nicks in the blade, a few gouges in the grinding wheels, SG250 and SJ250 much to my horror.
Very expensive lessons they were, nothing at this point which cannot be recovered from in time.
Knife sharpening I have come to appreciate is an art form which takes time and a lot of practice. Is it any wonder people in Japan have dedicated their lives to learning how to sharpening a knife. I am only beginning to appreciate this.
I enjoy using a well sharpened tool and in the kitchen a sharp knife can make or break a culinary dish.
If anyone can point me to a better learning process I would very much appreciate it
Thanks 

Try spending the same amount of time on each portion of the blade.

Good light is essential and is perhaps the most overlooked necessity.

My knife sharpening skills improved when I got a 40X binocular dissecting microscope, but any magnifier with good light will allow you to monitor your progress.

Visit garage sales for cheap sacrificial kitchen knives.

I am not very good at segmented sharpening, and this is where I end up with concave portions on the blade
I agree on good lighting. comfortable position during the sharpening process also assists the consistency.
I am not sure on how you use the microscope.
Sacrificial knives are not an issue, how to achieve a consistent sharpening process using the Tormek is.
I am able to consistently sharpen the same knives using the traditional flat water stones.
I want to learn how to achieve the same or better results using the Tormek.

Thanks for the response

The purpose of the magnifier is so you can monitor your progress.  You can see which portions of the blade need further attention.

What do you mean by segmented sharpening?  Are you referring to situations where you have to sharpen the knife in segments because it's too long?  Use the HK-50.

The magnifier I presume you re using after a sharpening process.
I decided to go back and start over on the sacrificial knife (SLOWLY) using the SG250 stone until I had the main imperfections removed.
Then I repeated the process with the SJ250.
The results are better but I have more learning and practice before I will attempt the process with one of the more expensive Japanese Kitchen Knives.
While I like the concept of the HK-50 it seems I do not have the ground bevel set correctly as the knife over hang almost exceeds the width of the blade. I have to revisit the angle of the HK-50 as it should allow me to have hardly any overhang of the blade and I should be touching the grind stone.
For the moment I am beginning to see some sharpening progress using the SVM-45 and the SVM-140.
Knife sharpening is an art form IMO where as my Metal Lathe tool bits are more of a technical challenge.
I am looking at fabricating a jig to hold the tool bit at the correct lateral angle and use the SVM-320 Planer Blade base to provide a consistent lateral movement. I my mind's eye this is quite simple the physical construct is proving a little more difficult.
I wish there was a simple means to attach photos as this, I think, would allow us better communication of our thoughts.
Thanks for your patience.

Just upload your photos to a site like Photobucket and then you can easily post them here.

Here is a picture showing how the edge of the HK-50 is made very thin so that it can get very close to the grindstone.

(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b553/htrivilino/001_zpsbb8f1e76.jpg) (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/htrivilino/media/001_zpsbb8f1e76.jpg.html)

Quote from: courierdog on April 27, 2014, 07:41:11 PM
The magnifier I presume you re using after a sharpening process.

During the sharpening session I'll keep looking at the edge to monitor my progress.  This is particularly helpful when the steel is of that very hard and brittle type that doesn't like to form a burr.  When a burr forms you know you've ground to the edge and it's time to flip the knife over and grind on the other side.  Most of the time it's easy to feel the burr, but on some types of steel it's very difficult.  Another trick is to wipe the edge on a cloth or paper towel.  If there's a burr it'll grab fibers from the cloth or towel and they can easily be seen with either good light or a magnifier.

I have a magnifying glass mounted just above my Tormek, and I also have a 40X dissecting microscope near by.

I have been using my sacrificial knife and I notice I am getting a wavy patrve tern along the edge, I am no where near the point of consistency at the knife sharpening process.
I have one Japanese knife which fairly sings when I use it, it has a unique sound to the blade steel, no other knife has this sound, nor does another knife cut like is as well. His knifes for the most part are Japanese Traditional knives and for the most part so is his steel, while he has made some using the multi-layer Damascus steel, I think his best are the old school traditionalist blades. This is also the knife which is currently giving me the most grief trying to sharpen using the Tormek.
Until I can achieve a sharpened straight line blade.
Sakai Takayuki Kamagata Usuba Knife
http://www.paulsfinest.com/Sakai-Takayuki-Kamagata-Usuba-Knife-Aonikou-195mm-7.7.html
or the slightly curved knife, Santoku, I will continue to practice.
The slight curve of the Santoku is giving me fits.
I created my version of the HK-50 using a 2 inch by 12 inch by 1/8 piece of Stainless and ground the reverse bevel using the SG-250 wheel. It took me the better part of a day, going very slowly to achieve as consistent a cut as possible and I have only taken it down to about 1/64 of an inch at the edge as I do not want the edge to be sharp which would create another problem.
Any other suggestions.

I may not have mentioned it.
I do have a magnifying glass while not near my grinder.
I also have a Celestron digital microscope, I find it difficult to use as the focus is very crude no fine control and the equally crude mounting makes any adjustment unsteady at best.
I would like to find a better support mount for this instrument as I believe a more secure mount would enable a somewhat smoother focus control. http://www.celestron.com/browse-shop/microscopes/digital-microscopes/deluxe-handheld-digital-microscope.
It also has not helped that I fell and injured my left wrist/hand and require carpal tunnel surgery to repair the damage.

Oddly, going too carefully and slowly can cause wavy variations of the bevel, sort of like trying to do calligraphy on absorbent paper with thin watery ink.  If the pen stops or slows down you get blotches. 

You may find that smooth, Zen inspired, even strokes will help produce a nice even bevel.   If you go to slowly it's easy to spend more time on some areas of the blade which quickly shows up on the bevel.  Also, smooth even strokes helps to keep the pressure the same as your draw the knife across the stone.

Hope that helps. :)

Hmm, I have never been very good a long steady strokes.
I have done a fair amount of calligraphy, an acquired and practiced art form to say the least one which demands a great deal of patience, at least in my case as my hands are not as fluid as I would like even in my youth.
I had more skill in the long steady trigger pull.
I had test done recently and the neurologist says I have lost a good deal of my finger nerve function.
What she does not know is I have never had some instantaneous functions compared to others. I never had the quick fingers of some piano players inspire of the length. I have had steady hands but even this has to be practiced and with the blade sharpening on this grade of steel has proven to be a significant challenge, one I hope to master regardless how absorbent the paper, LOL
Thanks

Courierdog,

The direction of this thread leads me to believe that you are working with the grindstone cutting too aggressively. When working on fine cutlery that only needs a bit of touch-up, it is absolutely critical to get the grindstone as smooth as possible with the SP-650 Stone Grader. The grindstone should feel like wet glass when it is running. You shouldn't be able to feel any "grit" in the surface.

If the surface is properly graded, the grindstone cannot cut fast enough to alter the profile of the knife.

While this observation is expected when using the SG-250
During the shaping process, to remove any imperfections the stone is graded for a coarse approach.
During the sharpening process the SG-250 is graded to achieve a finer grade.
My lack of skill using the Tormek to sharpen blade steel is very apparent given my inconsistent results.
While using the SJ-250 the same rules do apply, to a lessor extent, while both modes are of a sharpening nature due to the fineness of the stone.
Even with the SJ-250 I am getting the somewhat wavy patterns on the sharpened blade which is a factor of my lack of skill using the Tormek to sharpen blade steel..

Quote from: courierdog on April 28, 2014, 08:29:44 PM
Hmm, I have never been very good a long steady strokes.

How is then, that you managed to master the skill of sharpening a knife by hand?

My hat goes off to anyone who can do that.  I've never been able, which is what prompted me buy the Tormek to begin with.  That was followed with the development of the HK-50 because I couldn't even master freehand sharpening with the Tormek.

Quote from: courierdog on April 29, 2014, 06:18:08 PM
While this observation is expected when using the SG-250...
Even with the SJ-250 I am getting the somewhat wavy patterns on the sharpened blade which is a factor of my lack of skill using the Tormek to sharpen blade steel..

If you're changing the profile of a knife with the SJ-250, you're a much more patient man than I am. It takes me forever to remove any measurable amount of steel with the SJ-250. How much time are you spending on the knife with the SJ-250 to create a wavy edge?

Just to be clear, by "wavy edge" do you mean:

If you hold the knife perpendicular on a flat surface as you would when you are cutting, that the cutting edge does not contact the flat surface over its entire length?

I learned to sharpen knives using the flat Waterstones by watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CO7KdLZY7fQ and lots and lots of patience practice.
Plus I also use an Edge Guide to maintain a constant edge angle http://www.paulsfinest.com/Edge-Pro-Guide-Clip.html
With the above process I am able to produce a very respectable edge.
I use the 400 grit to remove any chips or gouges
I use 1000 grit to sharpen
I use 5000 grit to polish the sharpened edge.
Now my challenge is to learn how to sharpen the same knives using the Tormek, which is a totally different process to that of Flat WetStones.

Wavy Edge using the SJ-250
Any imperfection no matter how small create a difference in the mirror finish like a wave in the mirror finish, hence a wavy Edge.
Inconsistent Edge using the SG-250
Any imperfection while using the SG-250 creates a definite and distinct edge bevel change which can only be changeded by careful consistent drawing across the grindstone.

Quote from: Herman Trivilino on April 30, 2014, 02:18:26 AM

Quote from: courierdog on April 28, 2014, 08:29:44 PM
Hmm, I have never been very good a long steady strokes.

My hat goes off to anyone who can do that.  I've never been able, which is what prompted me buy the Tormek to begin with.  That was followed with the development of the HK-50 because I couldn't even master freehand sharpening with the Tormek.

I have ground a Stainless Steel version of the HK-50 as I followed your many threads thinking this would enable me to emulate your experience. When it comes to the narrow angles used on the Japanese Knives (less than 15 degrees) I have found to date I am unable to replicate your experience. I will attempt to grind down the HH-50 to a finer edge to allow me to achieve more knife blade on the HK-50 and less in the air before coming in contact with the grind stone.
Like yourself I think this process should produce a more controllable edge.
Caution, To Date, I have not been able to achieve good, consistent, shallow angles as used on the Japanese Kitchen Knives.
ANY Suggestions would be appreciated in this regard.
As with any sharpening process a consistent contact between the work piece and the grind stone is essential to achieving repeatable results.

Posting of pictures
I wish the Tormek community allowed the posting of pictures, it would make any explanation much easier. I do not find using Photobucket easy or as some have experienced safe.
So much of what were experience is visual in nature and thus pictures would enable a freer expression of our thoughts, while I may agree that my mind's eye can see many things I am unable to produce in real life regardless of the material, or subject I use, ha ha
The Wavy Edge is not easy, for me, to photograph, yet I can see is plain as day, even is less than ideal lighting.
I will admit the sharpening with the Tormek is progressing, but not always in a positive direction. The Knife Edges are beginning to approach that of my skills with the flat stones.I m not ready to trust my really expensive Japanese knives to the Tormek in my unskilled hands yet. A good deal more practice on the Tormek is required before that will happen. As I have found so far with the Tormek, once the secret of how to hold your tongue is learnt for a particular sharpening procedure then everything is golden. Kitchen Knife blade sharpening is not as easy as some would attempt to make you believe. It is very exacting and I believe few attain the perfection required for consistency. This is why we have so many Jigs invented for various tools which require precise sharpening. Kitchen Knives are not like any other blades.

So a wavy edge refers to waves on the surface of the ground edge.  I doubt you're getting those with the SJ.  Is it possible they were already there and the SJ makes them more visible because it's polishing them?

Herman, that is an interesting observation.
So are you suggesting I be much more careful using the SG-250 to correct the blade irregular bevel issues.
Perhaps you have a valid point, The Edge must be perfect with the SG-250 before proceeding to the SG-250. As I think on this I believe you are correct. The SJ-250 does polish very well however it can only polish the surface it has to work with.
Many thanks for this intuitive observation which had been hidden from my view due to my being overly focused on the surface instead of the underlying problem.

Also keep in mind that in many cases kitchen knives perform better when the surface of the bevels are not smooth.  Many people like a "tooth" to help with, for example, slicing tomatoes.

My understanding of knife edges was really helped along by my observations at a magnification of 40X.  There you can see the "teeth" carved into the bevel's surface.  Is it really worth it to obsess over the waves, or multiple facets as I've heard others call them.  The first time you use the knife, and then take a steel to it, you can see that the edge takes a lot of abuse.  Good knives are designed to perform well under these circumstances.  We don't really refer to this as abuse.  It's just normal wear and tear on the knife edge.

The most important thing is to keep a steel handy, and never put them in the automatic dish washer.

Herman, at one time I also believed the concept of "tooth" for slicing tomatoes, that is until I personally watched one of my knives sans teeth slice through a tomato repeatedly on edge without disturbing the slice above it.
I was able to keep the same knife with this kind of edge using the flat stone. Learning to do the same with the Tormek is my personal objective. The Japanese chefs I have spoken with do not use a steel they use a very fine grit waterstone 10000 or better. All sharpening is done with a 1000 grit stone, the 400 grit stone is only use to remove imperfections.
It took a lot of time to learn how to use the flat waterstones.
It is, for me, more difficult to learn how to do the same with the Tormek. I am confident once I learn, I will wonder what took so long. I have to go back and see if I can obtain a finer angle for my HK-50 to allow me to have better control of the sharpening process over the entire length of the knife blade, similar to the control I had while using the flat waterstones.
I do not find I have the same fine control with the SVM45 or the SVM140, at least not with my hands.

The bevel on the end of the HK-50 should be curved to match the curvature of the grindstone.  That will allow you to make the end stronger and thinner.  You do not want the end of that bevel to meet the top surface of the platform, if you do it will form a sharp edge.  Instead you want a flat surface, but you want the thickness of that flat spot to be as small as possible without it becoming flexible.

The geometry I decided on was a minimum bevel of 10^o with a thickness of 1 mm.

The final version of my HK-50 is aluminum with an adhesive-backed felt on the top to prevent scratches on my knives.  I have rougher versions made of wood and plastic that I use for things like lawn mower blades.  I save the nice one for finer pocket knives and kitchen knives.

Herman, minimum bevel of 10o with a thickness of 1 mm is exactly what I was attempting to achieve.
However, I seem to be observing more overhang of the blade than should be possible. with a 2 inch wide blade I have more than 1 inch overhang. this does not feel right, nor does it give the finger control of the blade I am looking for.
I must be doing something wrong in the setup.
My gut tells me I should be able to achieve a small overhang with the desired bevel angle for blade sharpening.
My experience with sharpening on flat stones, tells me I should be able to achieve a similar feel using the Tormek Round Wet Stone. The advantage of the end result is a very slight undercut giving a microscopic hollow grind to the finished, polished blade edge. This emulates the original intent of the Japanese creators of the blade. All be the differences that they use a 2-3 foot diameter stone as opposed to the 10 inch of the Tormek.
I feel if I can achieve the proper shape and angle of the HK-50 style blade rest I should be able to have a similar finger feel to that of the Japanese Water Stone. The Edge Pro, http://www.paulsfinest.com/Edge-Pro-Guide-Clip.html, I have used to achieve a consistent edge angle on the Flat Waterstone should be similar to using the HK-50 if shaped in an equivalent manner while providing better support of the blade during the sharpening process.

Herman, I made at least two mistakes
1. I did not bring the HK-50 Platform close enough to the desired angle, I needed another mm off of the leading edge and I had to pay particular attention to the total relief of the underside to match tat of the grinding wheel.
2. was not securing the HK-50 close enough to the rotating stone. If it removes even a small amount it does not matter.
I now am able to be begin to approach the edge I was getting with the Japanese Flat waterstones.
This is a huge relief off of my mind.
Thank you for staying with me as I struggled through the process.
Once the proper set up (HK-50) is built/fabricated/ground the sharpening process is very similar to that of the flat waterstones except the stone rotates instead of moving the blade across the stone.
The difference is holding and moving the blade across the moving (rotating) wheel.
I now can concentrate on perfecting the process to achieve the RAZOR sharp edge these knives deserve.

Look at this thread, especially Reply #7.

http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=1592.msg6634#msg6634

Herman, Exactly!!
Re: Homemade Knife Rest (HK-50)
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2013, 05:52:03 am »
Quote
Here you can see that the bevel angle is about 10 degrees.  This is where I am attempting to build my version of the HK-50. You can also see how close a knife blade will be able to get to the grindstone. The 1/8 inch Stainless Steel version I am working on is slowly coming together. The thinner you get it the closer you can get to the grindstone. This is what I am attempting to achieve. However, make it too thin and it won't be rigid enough to stand up to the pressure applied by the operator when sharpening a knife. I am hoping that the 1/8 inch Stainless Steel will have sufficient strength and rigidity.
I am very thankful for your initial concept and write up of the HK-50 which got me to rethink my sharpening process as the SVM45 & SVM140 jigs are not providing me with the degree of control I desire while sharpening my high carbon steel knife.
blades.
As you persisted with the development of your design it really go me to thinking and as I read reply #28, 31 and went back to Ionut's Small Knife Jig Reply #1 where a spark of enlightenment came to me and I went and bought a piece of 1/8 inch by 2 inch by 12 inch Stainless Steel.
I am not at the point of drilling and tapping as I am concerned I may need a different platform angle.
You finally decided to drill and tap the HK-50, have you had any second thoughts??

Quote from: courierdog on May 03, 2014, 03:07:10 AM
The thinner you get it the closer you can get to the grindstone. This is what I am attempting to achieve. However, make it too thin and it won't be rigid enough to stand up to the pressure applied by the operator when sharpening a knife. I am hoping that the 1/8 inch Stainless Steel will have sufficient strength and rigidity.

This is why I recommend something thicker, and the curved bevel will make it more rigid than a straight bevel.

QuoteYou finally decided to drill and tap the HK-50, have you had any second thoughts??

The tapping was done on the holes I drilled in the base of the scissors jig.  I have thought about a different design that would not require holes to be drilled in the scissors jig base.  If you look at its cross section, it has a bevel.  I believe a wedge could be made on the HK-50 that would accept the scissors jig base, and the wedge shape would hold it tight.  Perhaps a set screw could be devised that would prevent it from slipping.

(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b553/htrivilino/HK-50withSetScrew_zpse4720281.png) (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/htrivilino/media/HK-50withSetScrew_zpse4720281.png.html)

This way the jig would be ready to use once built, and you wouldn't have to get nervous about drilling holes in your nice scissors jig.  Moreover, it could be assembled with no tools required.

Herman, I understand the thickness issue when using a platform which has less rigidity than Steel.
Do you think I need to us a thicker base material even with the material being Stainless Steel?
I have no objections to drilling the SVX-150 Scissor Jig base or the SVD-110 Tool Rest.
It is only the drilling and fixing of the HK-50 by position, as it gives no further option.
While it is true the widest blade I currently have is a Chinese Chopper, if the Screws in the HK-50 are inset bevels an even wider blade?? can be accommodated.

Quote from: courierdog on May 03, 2014, 03:50:39 PM
Herman, I understand the thickness issue when using a platform which has less rigidity than Steel.
Do you think I need to us a thicker base material even with the material being Stainless Steel?

Probably not.  I never tried that material, but I had trouble with 1/8 inch thick aluminum.  It just wasn't rigid enough.  Originally I used a 1/8 inch thick piece of steel and it worked fine.  It was originally the blade on my neighbor's edger.  She had worn the cutting edge to a nub.

QuoteWhile it is true the widest blade I currently have is a Chinese Chopper, if the Screws in the HK-50 are inset bevels an even wider blade?? can be accommodated.

Yes.  Countersink the holes and use flat head screws so nothing stands proud of the top surface of the HK-50.  This is needed for cleavers, but also for some knives with curved blades or tips.

Herman, The Stainless Steel stock I have is very substantial.
I will attempt to grind it down a little more before I drill the holes as the amount of work involved in girding is far more than drilling holes, which that in mind Drilling and Tapping will be last.
For some strange reason, I have noticed the SG-250 grinds faster on the Stainless Steel than the SB-250 which i find odd as I would have assumed it should have cut faster.
I considering, once the final amount has been ground away on my version of your HK-50, to polish it using the SJ-250 which should allow the water to shed faster than the rough surface.

Quote from: courierdog on May 04, 2014, 12:25:04 AM
For some strange reason, I have noticed the SG-250 grinds faster on the Stainless Steel than the SB-250 which i find odd as I would have assumed it should have cut faster.

See what happens, just as an experiment, when you grind on a similarly-shaped piece of tool steel.

I'm thinking, as Jeff pointed out earlier in this thread, that you are not properly grading the grindstones with the stone grader.

The one thing I did forget to mention about my Setup for grinding the profile on the HK-50 Knife Rest.
I use the Tormek SE-76 Square Edge Jig. Then using the WM-200 AngleMaster I set the angle to 10 degrees, Please NOTE, this must be rechecked after any significant amount of material is ground away from the HK-50 Knife Rest, and the angle must be restored by sliding the material forward in the Tormek SE-76 Square Edge Jig.  In this way I ensure the profile, (a) the correct profile angle and (b) is square to the Wheel throughout the process.
Taking care and moving slowly toward the goal will yield a uniform profile and make possible a near perfect work platform upon which to lay the blade during the future sharpening process.
Another though on preventing any abrasion to the knives to be sharpened is to consider the working surface of the Knife rest.
a) a thin layers of a plastic material, note regardless of how thin it is a thickness which will raise the knife blade above the rest and thus force the blade to hang in mid air.
b) Polish the work surface as you would a blade and always ensure both the blade and the rest are always coated in water, minimizing any friction between the blade and the rest, it also ensures a minimal amount of grit from the sharpening process is retain on the surface of the blade rest and the blade being sharpened.
When one studies the Japanese master sharpeners they dip the entire blade in water between sessions to remove any excess grit material from the blade and they also was down the stone and the associated surfaces.
A finely polished blade needs to be handled and sharpened with respect.

Hi all,
I have followed this discussion and first thought I should not take part of it but since knives are my favourite tool to sharpen, I want to share some info.

We can agree that we all want that perfect edge line from the heel to the tip of the knife. And that´s a bit tricky.
I guess mostly of you will find that the tip has a wider edge line than rest of the knife?
The knife jig´s design and function is very good but it will not work on every knife with the same adjustment or movement pattern. And we have to remember how many different types of knifes there is!

For chef´s knife it is very good to lift the handle upwards when you come to the tip instead of following the curve and drag the handle to you.
For hunting knives with a thicker blade , then you can follow the curve on the blade, but use a marker on both side´s an adjust the jig to find the right angle.
Knifes with small blades, use the SVM-00, with the same movement as for the chef´s knife.

Jeff Farris made a video about sharpening knifes and about 5 minutes in it, you can see that he lift the tip instead of following the curve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYURcwkKGPs

Japanese knifes are really hot right now and there are a lot of discussion how to sharpen those the best way.
There are 3 things to think of, and that is witch material the blade has, use the right angle and a good wetstone.

I have a 90X magnifier available that I use sometimes to see how the edge looks like before and after sharpening, new or used knifes but also to see the difference between the stones. (SG-250, SB-250 and SJ-250) It has been helpful but it´s a bit over what you need to do.

All I need is a paper, or use my nail to see if the edge is gripping or simply test if it cuts away my arm hear. If it does, it´s sharp! And it always does.

And if you want to try on a tomato?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igQ2VIcgOgE 

There is much more to write about knifes but it would take me to long but ask a question and I will do my best to answer it.
Knife sharpening is fun but you´ll need time to learn all the differences on the blades to get it right!

Stickan, I would be very interested in learning a good deal more about sharpening knives. Knives are much more, IMO, an art form than just an acquired skill. Meaning, there is more than mechanical correctness, as each knife steel is different as is its intended use and is shaped for that use, but there is also the degree of how an individual uses that particular knife. As our hands are not created equal so we each adapt our skill or lack there of to facilitate each cutting stroke to achieve a a desired result.
The Tomato video is a starting point where I want to go with some of my knives, Usuba, Santoku, but not with the Syefu, Gyuto. At best the Tomato slicing is an acquired skill set as well as the knife sharpening, several tricks rolled together.
You are correct currently my knife tips have a wider edge bevel than I would like to see.
I fell and injured my left hand in Nov of 2013 and have sustained a carpel tunnel injury. Md says an operation my acupuncturist who is a Chinese medical doctor says I should be able to avoid the invasive operation.
This injury is affecting the way I use my hands to sharpen my knives.

Quote from: courierdog on May 05, 2014, 04:01:10 PM
You are correct currently my knife tips have a wider edge bevel than I would like to see.

Move the jig (SVM-45) closer to the tip of the knife.

Herman, I did try moving the SVM closer to the tip. I am finding using the HK-50 is closer to sharpening with a flat stone which my hands are more able to control the blade passing over the stone.

Plus, you avoid that whole issue of a wider bevel near the tip.

By the way, I adjust the bevel angle with the HK-50 resting on the grindstone.  Then I tighten the set screw so it can't rotate about the universal support.  Then I rotate the micro-adjuster to lift it off the grindstone, and then finally I tighten the two set screws that lock the universal support in place.

I believe the Tormek philosophy is complete control and repeatability for general through the use of various jigs.  Using flat stones and Herman's jig seems more oriented to achieving the same precise results with more manual skill. The two seem complementary.  I think a well prepared sharpener should be fluent with both.

Ken

Quote from: Herman Trivilino on May 06, 2014, 03:41:50 AM
Plus, you avoid that whole issue of a wider bevel near the tip.

By the way, I adjust the bevel angle with the HK-50 resting on the grindstone.  Then I tighten the set screw so it can't rotate about the universal support.  Then I rotate the micro-adjuster to lift it off the grindstone, and then finally I tighten the two set screws that lock the universal support in place.

Herman, thanks I must have missed that, if you had stated that in past threads.
Makes more sense.
I am in the process of re-grinding the HK-50 (StainlessSteel) platform. I am attempting to more closely match the HK-50 profile to that of the grinding wheel and more polished as well. Very time consuming, for sure. I am hoping my end results justify the added effort. LOL

Quote from: Ken S on May 06, 2014, 07:43:49 PM
I believe the Tormek philosophy is complete control and repeatability for general through the use of various jigs.  Using flat stones and Herman's jig seems more oriented to achieving the same precise results with more manual skill. The two seem complementary.  I think a well prepared sharpener should be fluent with both.
Ken

Ken, I do not find the Tormek knife jigs work for the way my hand to eye coordination works. Herman's HK-50 style is giving me more consistent results. As you have also noted I am grinding further on my version to allow less blade overhang to achieve the desired edge bevel. Not an easy task.

Retired engineer,

I don't doubt what you say.  I worked as a telephone man in the old Bell System.  We all received the same standardized training.  At one point, some distant manager tried to make the supplies on all the trucks stored in identical places.  That brilliant idea was short lived.  Even though we were supposedly trained alike, we thought differently. Even with something mundane like the sequence of the color packs, the man who left me his truck thought near to far, and I thought left to right.

In addition to thinking differently, we come to the forum with different levels of hand and eye coordination and different levels of experience.  In my case, I am more comfortable doing final honing with water or oil stones.  That is not because they work better; I have just worked more with them.  For the same reason I owned the knife jigs for several years before I actually tried them.  I am still not totally fluent with the knife jig. I have only sharpened my own knives, and attribute my lack of confidence to lack of experience.  More time at the wheel may help.

Whenever something does not work well for me, I tend to consider the possibility of operator error.  YOu have established a very high bar with your experience with flat stones.  I hope you find a technique which satisfies that standard with the Tormek.  It may be with Herman's jig rather than the customary jigs.  Either way is fine.  I hope you will continue posting.  I have always felt the Tormek is an excellent machine with room to grow. let's keep growing.

Ken

Quote from: courierdog on May 06, 2014, 08:08:02 PM
I am in the process of re-grinding the HK-50 (StainlessSteel) platform. I am attempting to more closely match the HK-50 profile to that of the grinding wheel and more polished as well. Very time consuming, for sure. I am hoping my end results justify the added effort. LOL

All you need to do is make the edge narrow, but not so narrow it bends when you use it.  The rest of the grinding is needed only so that it doesn't touch the grindstone when your bevel angle is small, say 10^o.

Set it at 15^o or even 20^o.  Get some practice using the jig on some old knives or a machete before you worry about refining it.  It may be that you'll not be happy with the jig and you'll find that the SVM works better for you.

Ken S, I see there is someone else used to Bell System Practices, ha ha, You Will Wash Your Hands This Way and You Will Enjoy It, It Is Written!! 22 years with Telus (AGT) I was an Engineering Manager, before that I learned Broadcast Practices in CBC. I retired in 2001 and now my Hobby job is as a Courier, to afford my toys, etc. I appreciate your observations. I consider myself a very new person at Knife sharpening, even though I have attempted the skill for as long as I can remember. It is only since purchasing a few Japanese Kitchen Knives that I began to adopt the Water stones and worked to acquire some degree of proficiency with the flat stones and using the Edge Pro I am able to maintain a degree of consistent edge bevel. Tomatoes are very humbling, their skin is like very fine armour, as are mushrooms (these become like soft rubber if the knife is the least bit dull. My wife became ill and I have since January been doing all the cooking. I prepare what I call Kit Meals. I use various items and prepare meals like she had in the hospital, (Varied, small portions, with a good deal more taste than the bland hospital food) regardless of the food sharp knives are essential and learning how to sharpen these knives is key IMO to success in the kitchen. My other new hobby is amateur machinist, where I am learning to sharpen Lathe tool bits, HSS and Crobalt. I do not like the toxic metal dust as both of us have severe asthma so I quickly gravitated to the Tormek which I bought a few years back when it was the 2000 as opposed to the T7, I have upgraded the machine to the T7 Standard.
Any suggestion will be considered and attempted in my pursuit of knife sharpening perfection.
Thanks for your kind words.

Herman, I am working at grinding the HK-50 to match the Grinding wheel. As you can imagine it is a time consuming process, which in and of itself is almost as precise as the blade edge bevel. It will take me another day with the little time I can dedicate to the process. The profile is looking good and I do not want to mess it up by attempting to go to fast. I grind a bit and reset the angle by moving the material forward a tiny amount. The leading edge is slowly reducing nicely. Keeping the grind even and consistent only comes at a slow steady pace. I also stop to grade the wheel using the coarse side frequently to ensure a consistent even removal of metal from the HK-50.
I will photograph the HK-50 process. How to post is another issue. I will begin to photograph the sharpening process once I can begin to see consistent results.

After spending a good deal of time grinding the profile of the HK-50 to match the Grinding Wheel I am able to exert a much finer degree of control over the sharpening and polishing process of my knife blades. For my hand eye coordination the difference between the SVM-45, SVM-140 & the HK-50 is exponential. My subjective impression is I have a finer degree of control as the blade passes over the rotating stone. The HK-50 should IMO be seriously considered by Tormek as an optional Knife Jig. While I am sure it will not work for everyone, neither will the existing Tormek Knife Jigs work for everyone.
Each style of jig requires a different hand to eye coordination.

I do have a very serious shaping question, Is there a coarse grit <100 Shaping Wheel available which could be used on the Tormek.
It would be nice to be able to able to shape any item, blade, tool bit, etc.
Rough shaping can be very time consuming as it removes a lot of metal from the base workpiece
Shaping with a water grinding wheel without the risk of airborne toxic metal dust particles is an improved health benefit
Shaping with a water grinding wheel without the risk of heat related micro fractures of the metal workpiece
Shaping with a water grinding wheel without the risk of burning or grinding ones fingers.

Have you looked at the SB-250?

http://tormek.com/international/en/accessories/grindstones/sb-250-tormek-blackstone-silicon/

Dry grinding, either with a wheel or a belt, are the only alternatives known to me.

Herman, I have the SG-250, SB-250 & SJ250 Tormek Stones.
I have an 8 inch bench grinder but it is too fast and removes metal creating a lot of heat, sufficient to create toxic metal dust, burned fingers and risks micro fractures in the work piece.
As I was grinding the profile on the HK-50 I had IMO way to much time invested in the process.
Once you have a Tormek, using anything else is just not the same from so many view points.
I tried using the Bench grinder to rough grind the HK-50 profile, it did not even rate as a poor joke.

Herman, I really want to thank you for the HK-50 concept and your follow up support.
I ground my version down to almost a knife edge. This has allowed me to exert a finer degree of control over my Japanese Kitchen knives. On Sunday I was able to within a few strokes using the coarse graded SGC-250 correct the concave edge on my treasure so I could move onto the SJ-250 to polish the edge finish. The knife once more sings as it slices as it works, this blade truly does have a song like sound as it slices, I have never heard this on any other knife.
I can now move on to sharpening my other treasures with a firm confidence of success.
I would like to see Tormek consider a version of the HK-50.
I would also like to see Tormek offer a further option of a "Shaping" coarse grade stone for SHAPING ONLY, function for the express purpose of removing metal at a fast rate.

Quote from: courierdog on May 12, 2014, 07:33:35 PM
Herman, I really want to thank you for the HK-50 concept and your follow up support.

You're welcome.  Glad for your success.  How do you prevent scratching the sides of knives?

QuoteI would also like to see Tormek offer a further option of a "Shaping" coarse grade stone for SHAPING ONLY, function for the express purpose of removing metal at a fast rate.

At Tormek's low speed maybe a coarser grade wouldn't be effective.  Maybe there's not a wet-grinder process that's any more effective at shaping than the Tormek with a SB.

Herman, there is a constant bubble of water which  I think floods the top surface of the HK-50 so at this point I have not noticed at this point in time any scratching of the blade finish, however I will continue to monitor for indications of scratching.
I am so pleased with the current process and being able to quickly restore an edge to my knives.
Next, the SB-250 does not remove metal at a SHAPING rate, which is why I  have asked/suggested if there is a suitable stone which can be used exclusively for shaping on the Tormek.
It really is a new area of potential development for the Tormek

the Tormek isn't an appropriate choice for a lot of shaping as it doesn't remove enough metal.  For the odd chisel, its fine, just takes a long time.  If you need to remove a lot of metal frequently, for example wanting to experiment with different grinds on turning tools or recondition, boot sale old dinged chisels etc then an alternative approach is what I did.

Rob, OK so what is your alternate method. I have an 8 inch bench grinder. The problem as I see it is the bench grinder creates a good deal of heat in the process. The existing Tormek stones do not permit fast removal of excess metal. The existing Tormek stones and processes are designed for Sharpening and not for the SHAPING  process.
I have a need for the shaping function prior to the more normal sharpening function.

you and I have travelled the same path my friend :-)

I first tried using the BGM-100 on a dry grinder so I could re-use my investment in Tormek jigs.  And to a point that works, certainly a lot faster than the Tormek.  But it definitely heats the steel up very fast and so for tools with fine tips like parting tools or skews, those tight angle tips are in serious danger of having the temper drawn, blueing the steel and destroying its ability to keep an edge.

In the end I went for a linisher style belt system but its inappropriate to discuss brand names on this forum.  Wouldn't be fair to Tormek who provide this forum to help Tormek users.  Don't ask me why belt driven sharpening is cooler than dry grindstone, but it is a magic bullet cure for fast steel removal.

Over the years, I've come to recognise the quality and flexibility of the Tormek for fine sharpening.  But it is at its most weak when asked to remove a lot of steel.

Rob, I do appreciate I am not alone in my appraisal of the need for something different for SHAPING.
I continue to search for a 10 inch x 2 inch wheel with sufficient coarseness to perform the Shaping function. When I was grinding the profile of the HK-50 I was unable to use the bench grinder to grind the rough profile and had to resort to using the SG-250, grading it to obtain as coarse a grit as possible and taking a very long time to shape the required profile.
With the new EZE LOCK adding a fourth stone capable of fast shaping would seem to be a natural next step in the Tormek  system.

Its to do with the speed of the wheel and also the fact it would fling the water everywhere.  Its just a fundamental shift in design to accommodate fast grinding on a Tormek so I cant see them doing it myself.

Rob, I suspect there are more basic  factors for Tormek choosing only sharpening. Until they decide to move onto Shaping then staying with Sharpening and supporting what they do well is smart. While I would like a Shaping wheel I can continue to look.
I will in the interim obtain a 10 inch bench grinder to minimize any differences between Shaping and Sharpening

If Jeff will allow a short comment...
I bought a 10 Jet bench grinder and the Multitool. Unfortunately the Multitool came with an inexcusable manufacturing flaw--a "bump" on the flat surface caused by a weld on the underside of it. Some day I will grind it flat even though it will bugger the anodizing. I suppose after using it for some time it would be removed anyhow.

Jamie, I have looked at all other wet grinding machines. Non IMHO are in any way equal to or superior to the current Tormek. While it is easy to criticize Tormek for not extending their line, those who do not have to wear the accountability hat can do anything they choose as they risk nothing. While I would like Tormek to develop/find/supply/second source a SHAPING wheel, only those in Tormek who can envision a place in their product line can decide this. To me it would be a reasonable thing to second source a wheel suitable for the express purpose of shaping. A wheel which could take any non work profiled tool piece and quickly bring into a rough working profile would be worth a lot as it would reduce any sharpening process and could also be used to roughly return a misused tool to some semblance of working shape prior to the sharpening process. As the tormek system is a slow speed wet process no high speed or heat related metal fatigue would result from its use if such a shaping wheel could be found. I feel like I am wishing upon a dead star on this issue.

The speed of the Tormek wheel coupled with the reality of centrifugal force (water thrown off the wheel at higher speeds) mean the Tormek system will never be capable of a shaping, regardless of the wheel abrasive technology.  The design is not correct for shaping.

I may have found a source for an 80 grit stone.
http://www.feines-werkzeug.de/index.php/language/en/cat/c21_TORMEK.html/filter_id/8/page/2
Product #222045

It´s possible to shape a tool on the Tormek, but it takes more time than an drygrinder. The SB-250 Blackstone makes it faster than the SG-250 standard stone.
As Rob wrote, higher speed makes it throw water. Our motor can handle high pressure instead that will remove material faster.

When you are about to shape a tool, you need to use the stonegrader frequently, you want the stone to be at 220 grid.
And if you don´t do that, it takes longer because you are slowly making the stones grid finer and finer.

However, if you are shaping tool very often, the BGM-100 kit will make the process faster but you need to be very careful not to damage the tools with the heat.

Hi Stickan

Personally I think you have to be very careful indeed in suggesting the Blackstone as a "solution" in this debate. I bought one for circa £100 some time ago and frankly it is not fit for purpose as a shaping technology.  It's superb for sharpening high speed steel on turning tools et al and I do appreciate it CAN be used for shaping.  That's the big caveat here, just because it can doesn't mean it should!

I note that you do also consider getting the jigs to operate with a dry grinder by employing the BGM-100 as a faster approach, which I agree with as I have one also.  I just would (being very honest here) not advise folks to purchase the Blackstone wheel and invest quite a sum if their assumption is that it will solve their shaping problems because, it won't.  If they go the dry grinder route ,I also agree they need to watch the heat like a hawk.

Rob,

I'm curious. You are a turner.  I have enough "head knowledge" (as opposed to hands on experience) to know that gouges and other turning tools often do not come from the factory with the desired shape. 

As the alchemists ventured farther from carbon steel, the magic long lasting edges have also become harder to shape.

My question is how many tools would a typical turner need to reshape? The investment in a dry grinder setup would seem steep for one or two tools.  For six or eight, it might seem a wiser investment.

Have you tried giving one of your sons a squirt bottle to hose down the tool while you arre dry grinding?  That's a low tech idea, but it might keep the blades cooler.

Ken

LOL...good idea Ken......I should get them up chimneys after that :-)  Actually my eldest would love to do that.

Its a good question, one I've struggled with myself.  You see I didn't want to admit to myself at first that the T7 couldn't handle all my needs.  The capital cost to acquire the tooling and jigs is high as we all know and I think I was in denial that it wasn't able to shape or sharpen everything on the planet.  A combination of over zealous marketing and users justifying their own purchases can be very seductive and I think is quite capable of luring people into a false sense of security.

When I became interested in turning I had a number of old tools from my Father and I bought some basics new, all of which were HSS.  Dad's stuff was all carbon steel.

So in my case I had probably 6 of Dad's tools which had all been done by hand and were truly horribly out of true.  Also 2 new deep fluted bowl gouges of different widths, 2 spindle gouges and 2 scrapers.  That was just at the start.  Since I have many more shapes including some of the tools where you only sharpen a tip piece which is fitted to a shaft.

So lets just restrict the conversation to Dads and my early HSS selection, which is:

Dads
3/4" roughing gouge
11/4" skew
1/2" skew
bedan
1/4" parting tool
3/8" spindle gouge

All horrible and all needing shaping.  The skew was miles off 15 degrees and the bevel was like the surface of a cut diamond it had that many facets!  Basically they all needed serious attention.

The new ones (HSS)
1/2 and 3/8" deep fluted bowl gouge all ground to factory 45 degrees with wings in line (horrible)
2 different width spindle gouges 1/4" and cant remember the other
3/4 and 1/2" round nose scrapers.

I started with Dad's big skew.....carbon steel only.  After not only regrading the (silicon blackstone) wheel numerous times....and I mean leaning on it to the point it stopped the shaft.....I started using the diamond truing tool to get it literally as abrasive as possible.  I probably went through about 2-3mm of wheel diameter in that one sharpen.  It was an absolute nightmare.  Took well over half an hour, fingers were sore.  Just awful.  Stretched out in front of me were all the rest of Dad's tools and then at the very least the 4 gouges because of course I wanted fingernail profiles for bowls, sheer scraping and detail gouges for spindle work.  The wing grinding wasn't so bad on the smaller gouges but it was on the bigger ones and of course it really dishes the grind stone.

I stopped half way through and got the BGM. That helped as it sure goes faster but still the over heating is a makor problem and as you know quenching HSS is not recommended due to micro-crystalline fractures in the steel.

I have since invested in belt technology which to be honourable to Tormek will not discuss brands etc here.  That, in my view is the best compromise between heat management and fast steel removal.

For all the tools I have not yet bought, I will doubtless need to shape them and I now have a solution.

Where I am at today is that I find the Tormek still an excellent sharpening system and also a very flexible one where it can do so many different edge tools.  But I position it in my own mind squarely as a sharpening system and nothing more.  Its just too frustrating to expect otherwise.  The BGM moves further in the direction of shaping because I cant fault the Tormek jigs, they're excellent quality.  But the heat management then becomes the bottle neck to fast progress.  Optimum for shaping in my view is a belt system that supports jigs for repeatability.  I've no idea why that approach is cooler than a dry grinder but for some reason it is and so its what I prefer now.

So if you're shaping one or two tools a year you'd be insane to not use your (massive) investment in the Tormek, but once it becomes a fairly regular occurrence (I must shape something at least 3 times a month if not more) then, another approach is more efficient.

The other thing with turners is they often experiment with different grinds even with the same tool so its not just a once only procedure.

First, the SB-250 is an excellent stone for the HSS and Crobalt tool steel tool bits such as I use on my metal lathe. It does not cut on Stainless or mild steel as well as the SG-250 which I think I have mentioned before. Each of the current Tormek stones are excellent at their assigned jobs. from hard experience I have found none are good at the shaping function, removal of large amounts of metal in a short amount of time.
ALL Tormek stones are excellent at SHARPENING which is a precise amount of metal removal from a preformed shape.
Where I have a problem is Blank Tool Bits are just that Blank, Square, HSS or Ctobalt tool steel, or in the case of making the HK-50 from any metal stock from scratch.
1. Using a dry bench grinder is more dangerous, physically as it turns faster and potentially can create more physical damage faster, any high speed grinding operation is more hazardous and the operator MUST observe more safety precautions.
2. Using a dry bench grinder or Belt Grinder releases more toxic metals into the environment. Any one who is an asthmatic such as my self are more aware of these things.
3. Using a dry bench grinder generates a) more heat in the work piece, b) more heat in the operators fingers, c) heat generates more fractures in the work piece, the Belt Grinder may provide an answer here.
Are there alternatives to shaping on a high speed dry grinder, at the current time it would appear not.
Asking questions or suggesting a different view is the purpose of these forums.
I have learned a great deal and using the suggestion by Herman, I built (Ground) a stainless steel HK-50 which while it took a very long time to grind the profile, performs an excellent function in my shop.
When I get my Mill up and running I hope to be able to be able to make a suggestion for an alternate to precision grinding of Blank, Metal Lathe Tool Bits. I have made a proof of concept version and now require a means of making a version in metal which provide a long term solution. This one may surprise quite a few people and provide more people with encouragement to sharpen and shape their own blank tool bits using the Tormek as an alternative to minimize the generation of toxic metal dust.

Continuing on I have found that the touch up using the Tormek, HK-50 Herman Trivilino, and setting the Sharping angle to match the Super Togeru Sharpening Guide, as a reference, http://www.paulsfinest.com/Super-Togeru-Sharpening-Guide.html,
This enables me to compare the flat stone sharpening to the Tormek.
I can sharpen my daughters knives while I visit her and maintain our own knives at home.
Having bought her the same knives for her kitchen it allows me to sharpen and maintain both sets of knives to a similar standard. All be it I use flat stones to sharpen hers and the Tormek to sharpen our home knives.
For those unfamiliar with a knife sharpening guide like this, it is a mechanical aid to assist in maintaining a blade at a consistent sharpening bevel while sharpening on Flat Japanese Water Stones. The HK-50 has been set to mimic the sharpening bevel of the Sharpening Guide.
This process allows me to replicate the sharpening styles of both the Flat Japanese Water Stones and the Tormek.
The Flat Stones requires at least three stone grit grades, 400 grit for rough edge shaping and nick removal, 1000 grit for actual sharpening and 5000 grit for edge polishing.
This compares to the Tormek SG stone for edge shaping and nick removal. and the SJ stone for final sharpening and polishing, this is assuming the Tormek stone grader is used to achieve the required grit suited to the process required.
I am indebted to Herman for the methodology (HK-50 Home Made Sharpening Jig) which has allowed me to maintain two sets of knives using two different Stone types.
I also like to maintain my skill with the manual, flat water stones, and using the HK-50 and the Tormek is quite similar in technique in that the fingers are use to maintain the stone contact at the point of sharpening contact.

I am surprised that the HK-50 doesn't scratch the sides of your knives.  I have to glue a piece of felt to the top of mine.

Herman:
All I can say is I have not observed any scratches as of yet.
I do not use the Tormek with the HK-50 for any length of time, now due to the perfection of the HK-50 and the required bevel angle.
Please note that with the current set up there is a very large bubble of water surrounding the upper and lower portion of the HK-50, perhaps the water bubble is minimizing the potential scratching.
With the current set up my fingers rest lightly on the edge blade opposite the sharpening side held against the rotating stone.

Quote from: courierdog on July 07, 2014, 03:12:15 PM
With the current set up my fingers rest lightly on the edge blade opposite the sharpening side held against the rotating stone.

Ahhh...  Perhaps that's it.  I've been pressing down firmly on the upper side of the blade.  I'll have to give your technique a try.

You do have the grindstone turning toward the edge?  And towards you, right?

Is there any way you could post a short video of your technique?  Or even a photo.

Herman:
The technique I use is the same as demonstrated by professional Japanese Knife sharpeners using the Japanese Flat Waterstones. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIw5ChGOADE While at first it was difficult to achieve real results as I continued to practice I began to gain a foothold on the process. When I moved to the Tormek again it was a similar learning curve to adapt the basic principals while using the HK-50 to maintain the Angle while I use my fingers as I I learned while using the Flat Waterstones. Keeping the HK-50 gap only sufficient to clear the rotating stone permits a water bubble nth below and above the HK-50. Slowly move the Blade across the rotating stone while maintaining a light pressure on the blade while in contact with the rotating stone. Which is rotating towards the blade As the technique is practiced the "Sound" of the sharpening approaches that of the flat stone as noted in the above video. When the sound approaches that of the flat stones I have observed a noticeable improvement in the actual sharpening / polishing process.
I would appreciate any feed back if you experience any similar / or different results.

Quote from: courierdog on July 08, 2014, 03:25:59 PM
Keeping the HK-50 gap only sufficient to clear the rotating stone permits a water bubble nth below and above the HK-50. Slowly move the Blade across the rotating stone while maintaining a light pressure on the blade while in contact with the rotating stone.

Would you say, then, that you apply more force pushing the blade into the grindstone than you do pushing the blade towards the platform?  You are resting the blade lightly on the platform and are using it only as a guide?

I've been firmly pushing the blade against the platform using brute force and you're applying elegant pressure!

Herman:
Applying more force down onto the HK-50 was where I started and soon found that that is a waste of effort.
While sufficient force is required to maintain the blade on the HK-50 it is a delicate balance of downward force and force pushing the blade into the rotating wheel.
What I have discovered is, a delicate touch is required which maintains a balance between sharpening force (Into The Wheel) and downward force to maintain the blade in mechanical and supportive contact with the HK-50.
The learned force required is very similar to the pressure learned using the flat stones and the angle guide. Again this is a delicate balance of holding and sharpening force at the point of contact.
What I have come to appreciate is the sharpening sound (Flat or Rotating) is very similar on each blade (Note the sound of each blade has its own characteristic sound) Mastering the Tormek using the HK-50 while applying these new found techniques is more related  than using the Tormek Knife Sharpening Jig. I almost gave up and sold the Tormek before reading about your HK-50.
While it took me almost an entire week to grind down the profile into the 1/8 inch thick by 2 inch wide Stainless Steel plate I now consider every minute a labour of love as the results have for keen nothing less than spectacular.
I have much work to do to remove the numerous gouges I placed in some blades while attempting to use the Tormek Knife sharpening jigs.
Try as I might, watched several people using the Tormek Knife jigs, achieved wondrous results, what I managed was very poor to say the least.
I suggest watching the video  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIw5ChGOADE several time and as he insists learn to hear the blade. It took me months of practice using his methods to appreciate what he is attempting to teach.
These techniques transfer quite well to the HK-50 and the Tormek.
The HK-50 has a very, very fine angle of address, which conforms to sharpening angles required by the Japanese knives.
The leading edge HK-50 now has a very feathered looking edge but allows the following:
1. Water bubble under the HK-50
2. Water bubble on the resting surface of the HK-50
3. Ground profile has what appears to be a very close tolerance between the Wheel and the HK-50 jig
4. The rigidity of the HK-50 even at the feathered edge is sufficient to the task and exhibits no noticeable deflection during the sharpening process.

Thanks, Courierdog, those are some good tips.  It would be so very nice if you could post a video.  A thousands words, as they say ...

Do you have your stainless steel platform attached to the base of the scissors jig?

Herman:
At this point I am still using small C Clamps to secure the HK-50 to the platform.
I have just returned from our vacation which had us out of country during the month of June.
Now I have been scheduled for Carpal Tunnel Surgery so my continued sharpening progress has been reduced.
Most of my effort for the next month or two will be on paper only.
This forum has really encouraged me and provided me with the ideas to follow through and actually sharpen my knives and along the way I also have managed to sharpen my metal lathe tool bits.
I am now working on a stand for the Tormek which is the right height to permit excellent visibility while sharpening and a platform which will collect all or most of the splash water.
Must have wheels to allow the stand to me moved around and wheel lock to secure it in place.
I have an old Model 15 teleprinter stand which is solid and I can fabricate a plywood base and an aluminum drip tray to recycle all the excess water.
The one thing I have learned is the splash foot print is mush larger than originally thought. and the entire work surface  needs to be easy to clean up if there is to be peace in the household, and the surrounding area is not covered in the sharpening splash residue.
The Sharpening Stones (Wheels) need to have a natural and convenient storage location that encourages and easy exchange as the different grit requirement dictates.
Do you have any thought on this subject.

Quote from: courierdog on July 09, 2014, 01:02:11 AM
Herman:
At this point I am still using small C Clamps to secure the HK-50 to the platform.

To the base of the scissors jig?

QuoteThe Sharpening Stones (Wheels) need to have a natural and convenient storage location that encourages and easy exchange as the different grit requirement dictates.
Do you have any thought on this subject.

Here is the Cadillac of solutions to stone storage:

http://tormek.com/international/en/accessories/sharpening-station/ts-740-sharpening-station/

Watch the video.  Although the sharpening station itself is not what you're looking for, perhaps you can steal the grindstone storage scheme and adapt it to your station.

Good luck with the surgery.

Herman:
Yes it is the Scissor Jig base I use.
I have looked at the very nice Sharpening Station, which has ample storage for the Tormek Accessories.
Wheel storage, I am not totally convinced on their approach, I have noticed a stone hold a tremendous amount of water.
I do not want to set the stones down nor do I want to stand the stones on their edge.
Hanging the stones, in the Tormek manner just does not feel right. Do not get me wrong, I think the safest means of storing the stone is similar, or should be, to the method used to secure the stone to the machine.
I am looking around the current set up and the splash area is larger than the Tormek Station base, thus I will start with a top surface of 24 x 24 inches, for a start.

I don't use more than one grindstone so it's not an issue for me, but it seems the method of hanging it on a pin is as equivalent to the way it's mounted as you can get.

I also don't use the Rotating Base, but I do believe it's designed to be within the spill zone.  In other words, you would set the rotating base inside your spill tray and then set the Tormek on top.

My Tormek work station is a scrap sheet of 3/4 inch plywood, 22 inches deep and 36 inches wide.  A scrap piece of vinyl floor is glued on top of that, and the sides are trimmed out with some 1 inch by 1/4 inch strips of pressure treated pine (also scraps).  The strips stand about 1/4 inch proud of the vinyl surface and serve as spill containment, although spill rarely reach it.

I used to rest it on top of my table saw but more recently attached it to a 2 by 6 ledger strip screwed to the garage wall, with two legs made of 2 by 2 that are not vertical but attached to the wall below the ledger strip.  An additional 2 by 2 strip is attached to the underside near the front for stiffness.

(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b553/htrivilino/Stand_zps7f8189cd.png) (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/htrivilino/media/Stand_zps7f8189cd.png.html)

Herman:
Thanks for your input. Your comment of 3/4 inch plywood is exactly what I intend to use. I do not intend to use the Rotating Base either, as I intend to build the Stand on a wheeled base with lock downs. Good point on the vinyl flooring as it does provide a non slip surface. I am also thinking of building the top with an adjustable platform so I can control the run off of the splash water into a drain which can be dumped or recycled as required.
I have found the use of the three stones a huge benefit. I am able to replicate the Japanese knife sharpening technique of at least 3 stone grits and provides a Shaping (remove dents and gouges, establish Working Edge Bevel) Sharpening and Polishing functions.
I will let you know how my progress goes and if there is a way I can forward photos to you let me know and I will attempt to comply.

My second T7 came with a "free" rotating base.  I have actually found it useful. It does get wet in use.  Not soaking wet, but wet.  I lift off the Tormek at the end of the session and dry off everything.  I also religiously empty and clean out the water tray after each session.i just thought of it; I think a towel placed under the Tormek (with or without rotating base) would catch the water.  Just dry out the towel between sessions.  That should solve any slippage issues with the floor.

Having a built in "lazy susan" type of arrangement would be nice, but subject to rusting.  The rotating base is heavy plastic.  It has stops at ninety degrees. it works well.

The angle brackets to the wall would be very solid. Nice idea. My reincarnated child's table top is a bit shaky.

When designing a table, I would definitely consider task lighting.

Keep us posted.

Ken

I have one of those large magnifiers with a light mounted just above my Tormek.  And an under-cabinet light, also mounted above.  Plenty of light is necessary and the magnifier is handy, too.

The drain is an interesting idea.  I will keep my eye out for an old sink that could be salvaged and used for this purpose.  One could place the rotating base over the drain and a bucket on the floor underneath to catch the water.

Herman:
I agree on the light issue. In my shot I have 3 T5 Lights, the Electrician asked if I knew what I was doing as these are really bright.
The magnifier is also a good idea.
I am thinking along the idea of a shaped tray base where the slash water ends up in a hose drain to something like a 2 Litre  milk bottle, as it has a handle.
My current thoughts on lights are either the T5 Fluorescence or the new LED lights as a spot light up close and personal style.

I believe the "high temperature" light of the new LED's would be superb.

Herman:
My wife just finished a complete rebuild of our Kitchen and ALL of her new lighting is LED.
There is no question the LED lighting is efficient and draws very little power compared to the compact fluorescent or the filament bulbs. The only current down side of the LED's is the purchase price.

One other downside is it is still early technology.  Talked to a friend about the conversion done by his grocery store, bulbs are burning out quite frequently (at least currently a warranty issue), and they are guaranteed five years.  (stores break even point is less then that)

I went for regular bulbs today (bosses request) and looked, LED's are also not sold in a contractor pack/bulk pack yet. ???

LED Conversion has another advantage in the shop, heat, currently many use halogen spot lamps which are extremely hot when used up close. I have been using the new LED lamps and the light output is not quite up to the same level however the lamp can be moved closer to the object without experiencing any significant heat build up.
One other interesting fact is the use of LED as illumination for digital microscopes has enabled significant improvement in observations where heat has been a serious issue in the past.
My current shop using T5 fluorescent lamps and LED projector bulbs is brighter and significantly cooler, and draws less than half the previously AC power.