I love sharpening, so much that I have started a small business and over the last few months, I have sought the help and knowledge from the very smart people her and for that, I am thankful. For reasons that I still can't get to grips with, I struggle to getting the honing part of the sharpening process right when I try to free hand. When I use the USB and KS123 to hone with (I add 1 degree to the honing) and get fantastic results but all the extra work it takes to set this up is slowing me down. I seem to be "rolling" the edge when free hand honing as I struggle getting the angle right, I try to look for the burr while honing so as not to over raise the edge but sometimes, I don't see it and then testing the knife, It's not as sharp as I know it should be. I have watched videos but alas, I'm just not getting it. Does anyone have any tricks or tips to help me, I have just bought 10 cheap knives and I am going to spend tomorrow sharpening and honing to see if I can crack it as I have been offered to attend a farmers market this Saturday and I am dreading it. Thanks.
It may be due to the steel used in some less expensive knives. These knives are extremely hard to sharpen to a fine edge; the burr essentially changes sides when you try and hone it.
This is discussed in this book "Knife Deburring book Science behind the lasting razor edge" by Dr. Vadim Kraichuk who is sadly deceased.
It takes practice. I judge the angle by starting low then raising the angle until I feel it grip. Too high and it will definitely round over.
If you use too little compound then it will stop cutting the steel and just rub it. You only need a small amount but you need to apply it often. Every couple of knives I find is best. The idea is that the compound is just on the surface of the wheel. The particles quickly wear smooth, so you need to re-apply often to keep god sharp particles.
Finally, don't apply too much pressure. If the compound is fresh then it will do the job for you. If it is not then you can be tempted to apply too much pressure thus causing your round over.
Practice these skills and you will go much faster with time.
Quote from: John Hancock Sr on Yesterday at 03:34:35 AMIt takes practice. I judge the angle by starting low then raising the angle until I feel it grip. Too high and it will definitely round over.
If you use too little compound then it will stop cutting the steel and just rub it. You only need a small amount but you need to apply it often. Every couple of knives I find is best. The idea is that the compound is just on the surface of the wheel. The particles quickly wear smooth, so you need to re-apply often to keep god sharp particles.
Finally, don't apply too much pressure. If the compound is fresh then it will do the job for you. If it is not then you can be tempted to apply too much pressure thus causing your round over.
Practice these skills and you will go much faster with time.
Thanks, I have the composit wheel so no compound but thanks for the advice
In my experience, the composite wheel has less feedback than the leather wheel with the compound. Still, John's advice is excellent advice.
When honing with the composite wheel, I prefer to add a few drops of water or the friction feels too high. Also, to be honest I don't think your edge will roll over due to the angle being (reasonably) too high, or the pressure being a (reasonable) bit too high. What I found is I tended to be apply a more constant pressure and moving more slowly when using a jig, therefore being much more efficient.
You may learn a lot by conducting a few experiments :
- If you hone a knife freehand, test it, then hone it righ afterwards at a controlled angle, then retest it : does sharpness increase ? If yes, you are not dulling the edge freehand, you are not honing efficiently.
- If you do it the other way around, does sharpness decrease ? If yes, you may be misjudging your honing angle *a lot* when freehanding. Using a sharpie might help.
You could also confirm your findings by looking at your edge under a microscope after freehanding : do you see a burr ? Does cutting a taunt nylon wire (BESS or DIY) leave a dent in the edge ? Those would confirm that freehand honing is not efficient, or not enough.
Also, honing with a jig but not honing enough might be just what it takes for the knife to feel sharp when testing it on a sheet of paper. But there will still be a burr. If you don't hone enough freehand, the burr will be there but will not have such a consistent angle, so it will not feel as sharp. I feel that I have to hone for a longer time when using the composite wheel compared to the leather wheel.
Quote from: John_B on April 28, 2026, 11:22:54 PMIt may be due to the steel used in some less expensive knives. These knives are extremely hard to sharpen to a fine edge; the burr essentially changes sides when you try and hone it.
Agree. In my experience "cheap knives" often means:
- non-ideal steel chemistry and/or
- non-ideal heat treatment protocols and/or
- non-ideal hardened steel structure at the edge and/or
- lower than ideal hardness (sub 60 HRC).
This all shows up at the burr. These burrs tend to be soft and "gummy", flopping from side-to-side, refusing to cut off cleanly. This results in incomplete deburring, sub-par fine edge and bad edge longevity.
It is striking how easily properly heat treated but hard pocket-knife steels deburr in comparison. Steels like CPM-SPY27 (@62 HRC), CPM-Magnacut (@64 HRC), CPM-15V (@67 HRC) etc. Almost no effort required.
Quote from: tgbto on Yesterday at 09:52:43 AMIn my experience, the composite wheel has less feedback than the leather wheel with the compound. Still, John's advice is excellent advice.
When honing with the composite wheel, I prefer to add a few drops of water or the friction feels too high. Also, to be honest I don't think your edge will roll over due to the angle being (reasonably) too high, or the pressure being a (reasonable) bit too high. What I found is I tended to be apply a more constant pressure and moving more slowly when using a jig, therefore being much more efficient.
You may learn a lot by conducting a few experiments :
- If you hone a knife freehand, test it, then hone it righ afterwards at a controlled angle, then retest it : does sharpness increase ? If yes, you are not dulling the edge freehand, you are not honing efficiently.
- If you do it the other way around, does sharpness decrease ? If yes, you may be misjudging your honing angle *a lot* when freehanding. Using a sharpie might help.
You could also confirm your findings by looking at your edge under a microscope after freehanding : do you see a burr ? Does cutting a taunt nylon wire (BESS or DIY) leave a dent in the edge ? Those would confirm that freehand honing is not efficient, or not enough.
Also, honing with a jig but not honing enough might be just what it takes for the knife to feel sharp when testing it on a sheet of paper. But there will still be a burr. If you don't hone enough freehand, the burr will be there but will not have such a consistent angle, so it will not feel as sharp. I feel that I have to hone for a longer time when using the composite wheel compared to the leather wheel.
Some great points and I will be doing those tests this afternoon. The sharpie idea is fantastic and I can't believe I didn't think of that. I have a microscope in my sharpening van but it was to see any any small chips and at 60 years old, my eyes are not as good as they once were so I will use it to check the findings.
Quote from: Brock O Lee on Yesterday at 03:45:56 PMQuote from: John_B on April 28, 2026, 11:22:54 PMIt may be due to the steel used in some less expensive knives. These knives are extremely hard to sharpen to a fine edge; the burr essentially changes sides when you try and hone it.
Agree. In my experience "cheap knives" often means:
- non-ideal steel chemistry and/or
- non-ideal heat treatment protocols and/or
- non-ideal hardened steel structure at the edge and/or
- lower than ideal hardness (sub 60 HRC).
This all shows up at the burr. These burrs tend to be soft and "gummy", flopping from side-to-side, refusing to cut off cleanly. This results in incomplete deburring, sub-par fine edge and bad edge longevity.
It is striking how easily properly heat treated but hard pocket-knife steels deburr in comparison. Steels like CPM-SPY27 (@62 HRC), CPM-Magnacut (@64 HRC), CPM-15V (@67 HRC) etc. Almost no effort required.
I have noticed that when controlled honing, sometimes I see super fine bits of metal flying off the edge which I assume is part of the burr but I don't see that on all knives I sharpen so I have been relying on pulling the edge across my nail which seems to work most of the time.
That sounds like a massive burr, when it is visible as you hone...
I'd suggest that you will likely get better end results when you minimise the size of the burr on the stones, with very light alternating passes before you deburr/hone. I'd say if you can see a burr with the naked eye at arms length under normal shop lightling it is likely too large.
When I hone free hand on the leather wheel, I find this to be useful to find the approximate angle to hone at
- start at a shallow angle, so that you contact the bevel shoulder, not the apex.
- increase the angle until you make full contact with the bevel on the wheel. The contact feels smooth at this stage.
- increase the angle a fraction to hone the very apex. Contact will feel less smooth at this stage.
- the steps above take only a second or two.
Err on the side of very light pressure and too shallow angle, rather than too much pressure and too steep angle. It helps to avoid rounding the apex. You can always come back for another pass at a slightly steeper angle if you did not get the desired result the first time.
As a side note, I do not like the composite rubber wheel much for deburring. Wootz estimated the embedded grit size to be +-30 micron, if I remember correctly. This is very large. In comparison, alu oxide (and Tormek compound) grit is more like 3 micron. To put that into perspective, a very sharp edge has an apex radius of less than 1 micron.