Most BESS users strive for very low scores immediately after sharpening. I call that "basic BESS". While that may seem to bring bragging rights, those rights are short lived. In my opinion, using BESS to help determine the staying power of sharp edges is more useful. This extended testing can be to include comparing longevity of edges with different bevel angles, grinds, or steel.
Ken
If I can confirm burr removal with the Bess I will keep an eye on retention. I keep a huge roll of cling film in my kitchen drawer from costco and its the best thing I have in the house for keeping an eye on my knife edges. I slice it every day to wrap my sarnie and it tells me when the edge has gone. I will do a test next time it doesnt glide through the cling film.
Edge retention is still something that is somewhat of a mystery to me. I have tried 600 grit and very little honing to highly polished. Neither seem to be superior in terms of edge retention. That is, retaining a 70 edge on the BESS.
After use, all steels I have sharpened lose that super sharpness in the first couple uses. Some steels jump to a 140, some to 240 on everything but the softest foods.
They all seem to lose that eye popping sharpness very quickly.
I only have my tests to gauge this on. I haven't seen any tests for real world usage to measure how fast the edge degrades. I suppose CARTA tests do show the degradation but usually they demonstrate how long the usable edge lasts, not how long they stay ultra sharp.
Once again, how sharp you need/want to keep your tools/knife is very personal. I had a carpenter look at a chisel sharpened to 90 like it was meh...
Quote from: BPalv on July 26, 2025, 03:56:44 PMEdge retention is still something that is somewhat of a mystery to me. I have tried 600 grit and very little honing to highly polished. Neither seem to be superior in terms of edge retention. That is, retaining a 70 edge on the BESS.
After use, all steels I have sharpened lose that super sharpness in the first couple uses. Some steels jump to a 140, some to 240 on everything but the softest foods.
They all seem to lose that eye popping sharpness very quickly.
I only have my tests to gauge this on. I haven't seen any tests for real world usage to measure how fast the edge degrades. I suppose CARTA tests do show the degradation but usually they demonstrate how long the usable edge lasts, not how long they stay ultra sharp.
Once again, how sharp you need/want to keep your tools/knife is very personal. I had a carpenter look at a chisel sharpened to 90 like it was meh...
One thing I discovered during the course of my knife sharpening business, is how some customers reject modern sharpening methods (like my Tormek T8) to validate the methods that they've been using for the longest time as still "the best".
So the carpenter treating your 90 BESS sharpening as meh, may very well have nothing to do with your processes & results, but more to do with him trying to validate what he's always been doing as still "the best". A real life example, is how a local butcher turned down a free sharpening from me because he only believed in his own sharpening methods. His knife had only been thinned, no secondary bevel left, and the mystery whetstone he was using was like a misshaped bar of soap.
Another example was how a restaurant owner who was proud of learning how to sharpen knives since he was 14 (he was in his 50s when we spoke) but couldn't define what "high carbon steel" was, had no concept of knife geometry, as well as knife anatomy. The biggest indicator to me was when I offered to do a sharpness test on any of his knives for free (using my PT50A), and he immediately refused. That told me that he was rejecting me not because my methods and case studies sucked, but he was more worried that I would make his knives actually sharper, and totally invalidate everything he thought he knew.
Quote from: Ken S on July 26, 2025, 01:20:44 AMMost BESS users strive for very low scores immediately after sharpening. I call that "basic BESS". While that may seem to bring bragging rights, those rights are short lived. In my opinion, using BESS to help determine the staying power of sharp edges is more useful. This extended testing can be to include comparing longevity of edges with different bevel angles, grinds, or steel.
Ken
I will ponder how to go about this and would like to give it a go. With the sparse equipment I have it will at least be very challenging to get some sort of apples to apples test. To date my testing, as Ken stated, I have been using the BESS to test sharpness, not longevity.
I hate to say this but so far I can't really see the difference in supersteels as it equates to a lasting edge. Many of the manufacturers tout super tough but all that I have used seem very similar in real world use. That is to say, does my s30V edge last as long as my Magnacut. Does toughness equate to a lasting edge?
I grew up messing with PC's. The manufacturers would say how much faster they were. It was true but that speedier PC could only be measured in nano seconds. Perhaps it's like that with different supersteels unless they are on opposite sides of the supersteels spectrum.
The only advantage to a super sharp edge may be that because it starts sharper, it will generally be sharp longer. I could certainly see where a ultra sharp edge could be more fragile...
I really can't comment on super steels. I have never used or owned any.
I believe some of these ideas have merit, but only within reasonable limits.
Ken
Ken,
I also wanted to give my thoughts on "Basic Bess" and me.
My journey started Many years ago trying to get my filet knives sharp for the mountains of Lake Erie Walleye we would catch. Later my kids bought me a set of Shun's that added fuel to the fire.
After spending a bunch, reading mountain's of studies, techniques, years of practice and of course endless videos, it doesn't feel very "basic" to me, nor was it a short journey.
Sharpening becomes a personal thing, why you sharpen, how you sharpen and the results you expect. I love a super sharp knife but understand that most folks couldn't care less.
One note though, if you come over for dinner don't stick your hand in the knife drawer.
Al
Al,
I apologize if I offended you with this ropic. That was certainly not my intention. I sometimes start topics like this to inspire dialogue. I certainly do not consider myself "the expert" and I always enjoy learning from others.
So much has evolved, especially with honing since I began using my Tormek in 2009. I welcome constructive change.
Keep posting.
Ken
Quote from: BPalv on July 26, 2025, 09:54:20 PMOne note though, if you come over for dinner don't stick your hand in the knife drawer.
Do you mean you keep you ultra-sharp knives loose in a drawer ;D ???
Quote from: tgbto on July 28, 2025, 09:01:21 AMQuote from: BPalv on July 26, 2025, 09:54:20 PMOne note though, if you come over for dinner don't stick your hand in the knife drawer.
Do you mean you keep you ultra-sharp knives loose in a drawer ;D ???
Just kidding, they now sport sheaths...
You guys may be on to something, an inexpensive way of determining knife sharpness. All we would need to do it make up a comparison chart comparing BESS with the shriek volume of putting one's hand in the knife drawer. . . . No need to buy expensive test filament. (:) (just kidding)
Ken