Hi Guys, Max here from Auckland, NZ, new to the forum, and just upgraded to a T-8.
I think I might have just discovered a eureka moment:
I use a sonic cleaner for dirty knives before processing, and after finishing a mid range filleter, I did a BESS test and it scored a 50, (I only have the chef version), so I was very pleased with that.
Then I thought, I've read Vadim's book and watched all his videos, and no matter what you do there will always be a residual root burr left after the final strop. So I put the finished knife, blade first, in the sonic cleaner for about ten minutes and tested it again. Low and behold the score was 25!
When you think about it, root burrs are microscopic, and sonic cavitation works on the same scale. It is a powerful shock force that could easily knock any loose remaining burr clean off the edge.
Am I the first one in the history of the world to discover this?
Please tell me I am...it's my birthday today and that would make my day.
Welcome to the forum, Max, and happy birthday!
You put forth an interesting idea. I admit that I know nothing about ultrasonic cleaning; however, the idea sounds intriguing. I hope you will explore it more fully and please keep us posted.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on June 07, 2025, 04:02:17 AMWelcome to the forum, Max, and happy birthday!
You put forth an interesting idea. I admit that I know nothing about ultrasonic cleaning; however, the idea sounds intriguing. I hope you will explore it more fully and please keep us posted.
Ken
Cheers Ken, I'll certainly do that. Next batch of knives that come in, I'll do before and after tests to see if this is a game changer or not. I'm very excited about this, why did nobody try this year's ago. Seems so logical to me. What a tragedy the good Doctor isn't here to comment.
Max,
Wootz' early passing was certainly tragic. Thatleaves to us the task of carrying on the creative work he helped advance.
Ken
If you're able to inspect the blade post ultrasonic cleaning with a microscope, and the scratch pattern remains unchanged (or the cavitation has created markings shallower than the existing scratch pattern)... I think you have a winning combination 👍🏻
Ultrasonic deburring is an established technology. e.g.https://www.yuasa-intl.com/deburring-system.html
However, I could not find applications of knife deburring.
Your report is interesting. Thanks.
Guys, I've just done tests on two more knives.
Another fillet knife before ultrasonic did a 100 BESS, after 10 mins in 60 degree C sonic bath scored 75 BESS.
A Spyderco Smock gave exactly the same scores.
I have ordered another BESS tester - this time the A model with 1 gram resolution, and will get more accurate data when it arrives.
It looks to me that a sonic cleaner is indeed capable of lowering BESS scores by at least a few points anyway.
Any other sharpeners out there that own quality, ultra sonic cleaners, please do some experiments to verify if this claim has merit or not.
Well done, Max!
Ken
PS I don't know anything about ultrasonic cleaning. Is it possible that the cleaning might also remove any rust prevention properties from previous sharpening?
Especially with carbon knives, oiling the knife after cleaning might be prudent. (just a guess)
I remember when I was first taught sharpening in high school. The teacher said that Stropping the chisel would successively bend the burr back and forth in order to weaken it and break it off. Seems that ultrasonic cleaning takes to to the next level!
Okay, so my new BESS tester arrived this morning, and I put it to the test.
I resharpened two knives:
A Sheffield carving knife from my kitchen and I redid the fillet knife.
I was so eager to try my new BESS, I forgot to strop the carving knife entirely,but still got the following results:
BESS scores before: 80, and 84.
After a 10 min sonic bath: 54, and 45.
The filleter before, (but after stropping): 76.
After a 10 min sonic bath: 69.
No proof, but I reckon the sonic bath would also enhance edge retention.
I'm not a scientist, but guys, that has to be convincing evidence doesn't it?
So, anybody know of any scientist or metallurgist who could do some lab tests, and verify the theory.
I'm certainly adding the procedure to my work flow.
Incidentally, my cleaner is a commercial, 50 HZ, 40 KHZ, twin transducer model imported from China, and sold here locally.
That sounds really promising. Judging from your BESS scores, you probably do a lot more after you first hone on the leather wheel, don't you ?
If that's not asking too much, do you think you could :
- Try this method after just SG grinding + leather wheel/PA 70 honing, and see how BESS scores are affected ?
- Tell us what you find in the bath with a knife that would have been cleaned in the US bath before being ground (and rinsed as well as possible under running water after honing) ? It would be interesting to get a good look at metal particles left inside the bath...
Quote from: tgbto on June 11, 2025, 08:31:03 AMThat sounds really promising. Judging from your BESS scores, you probably do a lot more after you first hone on the leather wheel, don't you ?
Not sure what you mean here. After the honing process I usually strop on a horizontal cow leather. Can't buy kangaroo strops here in NZ, much to my displeasure. But you notice I never stropped the carver at all, and the results were outstanding.
Which raises the question is it even necessary? Let the USC do the work!
If that's not asking too much, do you think you could :
- Try this method after just SG grinding + leather wheel/PA 70 honing, and see how BESS scores are affected ?
Um, that's exactly what I did.
I was aiming for the best possible grind and hone i could do, and so for the first time ever I hones on the front jig holder and took extra care to adjust the angle in small increments to break off the burr as carefully as possible. I think that also will become standard practice in future for me.
I only use the standard leather wheel with the Tormek paste, but I'm keen to get another fresh wheel and try the Veritas Chromium oxide paste. This is what Dr Verdim recommends.
- Tell us what you find in the bath with a knife that would have been cleaned in the US bath before being ground (and rinsed as well as possible under running water after honing) ? It would be interesting to get a good look at metal particles left inside the bath...
Agreed that would be interesting, but simple logic indicates that I would find metal particles of broken off burr.
I will add that I added some washing machine powder to the bath to aid cleaning and that may or may not have had an effect.
I'll report back after I empty the water some time today.
Quote from: Clickngofar on June 07, 2025, 02:24:56 AMAm I the first one in the history of the world to discover this?
Sorry to burst your bubble but not really. I could not find any reference to deburring knives with ultra sonics so this may be new, but there are people deburring parts post machining using ultrasonics so the technique is not new. From what I can find it is extremely effective and your results are consistent which what I see on machined part deburring.
Do not be discouraged. While discovering something new is valuable, discovering a new useful application is also useful, as when the Corning engineer's wife discovered that the glass designed for locomotive headlights also worked well for kitchen ware. Today we know this as Pyrex.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on June 12, 2025, 01:11:28 AMwhen the Corning engineer's wife discovered that the glass designed for locomotive headlights also worked well for kitchen ware
The discovery of stainless steel in Sheffield England is also remarkable, the company is still there and locally making knives.
Good thought, John.
Ken
Quote from: Clickngofar on June 11, 2025, 09:30:50 PMQuote from: tgbto on June 11, 2025, 08:31:03 AMIf that's not asking too much, do you think you could :
- Try this method after just SG grinding + leather wheel/PA 70 honing, and see how BESS scores are affected ?
Um, that's exactly what I did.
I was aiming for the best possible grind and hone i could do, and so for the first time ever I hones on the front jig holder and took extra care to adjust the angle in small increments to break off the burr as carefully as possible. I think that also will become standard practice in future for me.
I only use the standard leather wheel with the Tormek paste, but I'm keen to get another fresh wheel and try the Veritas Chromium oxide paste. This is what Dr Verdim recommends.
Wow, the scores you mention before using the USC are impressive. Like 80 without stropping. Thanks for the answers, and you got me wondering what a suitable USC would be and what it costs... I've been looking around and saw some 6 liters dual transducer 40kHZ cleaners around 250 EUR.
"Wow, the scores you mention before using the USC are impressive. Like 80 without stropping. Thanks for the answers, and you got me wondering what a suitable USC would be and what it costs... I've been looking around and saw some 6 liters dual transducer 40kHZ cleaners around 250 EUR."
From personal experience, go for the largest capacity ultrasonic cleaner you can reasonably afford. I guarantee you'll be throwing a lot of other items in it once you've experienced what it can do.
Quote from: Royale on June 13, 2025, 04:47:53 PMFrom personal experience, go for the largest capacity ultrasonic cleaner you can reasonably afford. I guarantee you'll be throwing a lot of other items in it once you've experienced what it can do.
* reads this while thinking this 15L USC might just be what he needs *
What is the ultrasonic power of your ultrasonic cleaner?
Regards,
Drilon
Quote from: John Hancock Sr on June 12, 2025, 12:35:29 AMQuote from: Clickngofar on June 07, 2025, 02:24:56 AMAm I the first one in the history of the world to discover this?
Sorry to burst your bubble but not really. I could not find any reference to deburring knives with ultra sonics so this may be new, but there are people deburring parts post machining using ultrasonics so the technique is not new. From what I can find it is extremely effective and your results are consistent which what I see on machined part deburring.
Working with ultrasonic plus plates or needles may scratch the blade and eventually round the spine.
There are diffenent liquids. Ask a dental technican or an optician for liquids working well with carbon knifes.