Hello, everyone. Well, after a couple years of sharpening with a couple different systems, I went ahead and pulled the trigger on a new Tormek T8. I got the hand tool bundle sale through Sharpening Supplies, the new knife angle setter, and the black silicon wheel. I want to solicit some opinions from the experts here. I'm trying to decide if I should use the Tormek compound on the leather wheel, or the 2 micron Venev diamond compound I have. It's the waxy stuff that comes in a lipstick-type tube. I intend to steer away from supersteels for a while until I get a handle on the T8 and get the diamond or CBN wheels. My intent is to use the black silicon wheel graded at 200-ish, and the SG-250 graded fine. I bought diamond plates to grade with after watching the Knife Grinders Australia videos. Any and all opinions will be greatly appreciated. I can't wait to get my hands on it. Now if only UPS would do their job and deliver the packages! (Long story).
Honestly, any honing compound will do the job. The Tormek compound is deliberately oily in order to maintain the suppleness of the leather. The Tormek compound I suspect to be Aluminium Oxide but it is probably a medium grit as honing compounds go. There is nothing stopping you hand stropping after the fact. It would not take much to refine the edge further.
If you are not doing super steels yet I personally do not see a need to use the SB-250 unless a knife has damage that needs to be fixed. For the knives I have sharpened or my own knives I use the SG-250 ungraded which is I think towards the finer side of middle of the grades possible. For the final passes before honing I will quickly grade it fine. Graded coarse the SB-250 works well to fix minor damage and eliminates the need for a wheel change
For honing I use the Tormek paste for customer knives. For my own I have a second leather wheel and I use 1µ diamond. It would be my recommendation not mix your diamond and the Tormek paste on the same wheel.
If you are serious about consistently getting the best edge I would suggest guided honing using the Tormek setup shown in their angle setter video or a Front Vertical Base (FVB). There are numerous threads on this subject. I found that learning how to consistently hone freehand was the most difficult aspect of my overall learning. When the merits of guided honing werre discussed I adopted it in my process and have not looked back.
Quote from: John_B on January 09, 2025, 10:11:28 PMIf you are not doing super steels yet I personally do not see a need to use the SB-250 unless a knife has damage that needs to be fixed. For the knives I have sharpened or my own knives I use the SG-250 ungraded which is I think towards the finer side of middle of the grades possible. For the final passes before honing I will quickly grade it fine. Graded coarse the SB-250 works well to fix minor damage and eliminates the need for a wheel change
For honing I use the Tormek paste for customer knives. For my own I have a second leather wheel and I use 1µ diamond. It would be my recommendation not mix your diamond and the Tormek paste on the same wheel.
If you are serious about consistently getting the best edge I would suggest guided honing using the Tormek setup shown in their angle setter video or a Front Vertical Base (FVB). There are numerous threads on this subject. I found that learning how to consistently hone freehand was the most difficult aspect of my overall learning. When the merits of guided honing werre discussed I adopted it in my process and have not looked back.
I'm in the same boat as you regarding freehand honing. I'm having a bear of a time and haven't gotten a handle on it yet. I ordered a front vertical base, should be in tomorrow, and I'm going to use the KS-123 knife angle setter to hone at the same angle I grind at.
You know, grinding gets all the attention, but I'm finding that honing will make or break an edge. I bought Dr. Kraichuk's Knife Deburring book. Hopefully, my thick head will gain something from all the hard work and research he did.
I sharpened a couple straight chisels and didn't have a problem honing them. That big chisel bevel helps, and I needed a success, lol. But this is just the beginning of my journey, so discouragement isn't an option.
Welcome to the forum, Joe.
Since you are wisely holding off with your supersteel knives and a tube of PA-70 honing compound came with your T8, I suggest you stRt with PA-70 and set the diamond compound aside. Your time learning your SG-250 and PA-70 will be well spent. This is the combination the Tormek instructors use in the online classes, and they have access to the complete Tormek lineup.
Keep us posted.
Ken
I'm in the same boat as you regarding freehand honing. I'm having a bear of a time and haven't gotten a handle on it yet. I ordered a front vertical base, should be in tomorrow, and I'm going to use the KS-123 knife angle setter to hone at the same angle I grind at.
You know, grinding gets all the attention, but I'm finding that honing will make or break an edge. I bought Dr. Kraichuk's Knife Deburring book. Hopefully, my thick head will gain something from all the hard work and research he did.
I sharpened a couple straight chisels and didn't have a problem honing them. That big chisel bevel helps, and I needed a success, lol. But this is just the beginning of my journey, so discouragement isn't an option.
While honing at the same angle as you sharpened definitely works I have been using Dr. Kraichuk's Knife Deburring book's recommendation for honing angle going up to 1.50° over the sharpening angle depending on the steel.
Quote from: Ken S on January 14, 2025, 06:33:10 PMWelcome to the forum, Joe.
Since you are wisely holding off with your supersteel knives and a tube of PA-70 honing compound came with your T8, I suggest you stRt with PA-70 and set the diamond compound aside. Your time learning your SG-250 and PA-70 will be well spent. This is the combination the Tormek instructors use in the online classes, and they have access to the complete Tormek lineup.
Keep us posted.
Ken,
I agree 110% that I need to stick with the SG-250 and PA-70 compound to learn what this machine is capable of and build a solid foundation. I need to learn this machine and be able to produce consistent, quality results before moving to different wheels, compounds, sprays, or emulsions. Besides, I'm enjoying the ride.
However, I am frustrated right now. Try as I might, I can't get better than a 180 BESS score with knives, either with controlled angle or freehand honing. I know the SG-250 and the compound is capable of much better, but I'm hitting a brick wall. I can consistently get 103-110 BESS with some cheap Walmart Hyper Tough wood chisels, but the small bevel on knives is killing me right now.
Now 180 is still very sharp, and I'm not obsessing over BESS scores, but I know the equipment can do much better. I'm just not good enough yet.
On another note, I followed Dr. Kraichuck's guidance and bought some 80, 400, and 1000 grit diamond plates to grade the wheels with. Man, after grading the SG-250 with the 400, then the 1000 plates, this wheel is silky smooth! Bevels are noticeably more polished. I'm really liking the SG-250.
"While honing at the same angle as you sharpened definitely works I have been using Dr. Kraichuk's Knife Deburring book's recommendation for honing angle going up to 1.50° over the sharpening angle depending on the steel."
John_B,
I'm definitely going to try this. Thanks for the tip!
Well, after John_B reminded me that Dr Kraichuk had already done all the legwork in his book, I followed his guidance. Since I'm using a cheap mainstream knife, I did controlled angle honing at 2° higher than my grinding angle, followed up with leather then cotton strops, and suddenly my BESS dropped to around 120.
Now I'm going to break out the other mainstream knives and see if I can get similar results.
When I do a knife for the first time I always inspect the entire edge on both sides to make sure every bit is sharpened. I found older knives can have dips as well as small chips that need to be sharpened out. If you lightly hold the knife and cut thin paper like a receipt or newsprint you can feel any remaining burr or imperfection.
Quote from: John_B on January 20, 2025, 08:53:50 PMWhen I do a knife for the first time I always inspect the entire edge on both sides to make sure every bit is sharpened. ...snip...
I inspect the entire length several times during sharpening on each knife and most other edges, using the KINGMAS Mini 60x Microscope. Allows me to see the burr as well as feeling for it. I can also see where tiny areas of black marker has not been removed. One of the most valuable aids to sharpening.
120 BESS is still the best I've been able to pull off, and that isn't often. I've tried freehand honing, controlled angle honing, and higher angle honing using Vladim's book for reference. I have a Cuisinart knife from a kitchen set that I can't get past 150 BESS no matter how hard I try. I don't get it, I would have never dreamed it would be THIS hard with all the info and support from the sharpening community. I have a Victorinox knife that I got to 120 BESS, but can't get any lower. I'm honing with the Tormek compound on the leather wheel. I have a hanging leather strop that helps a little sometimes, sometimes not. I don't remember the last time I was this frustrated.
I don't have a BESS tester, however using Vadim's chart I can (with effort) achieve 100-110 using the SG-250, leather wheel with Tormek compound followed by another leather wheel with 1µ diamond then stropping on barber strop. I don't go for this sharp all that often mainly on my better personal knives. It is sometimes frustrating as I have found a little too much pressure while honing on one side or the other can undo what you have achieved. I think the last bit of sharpness requires a light steady touch and in Vadim's case muscle memory from hundreds of knives. With my small group of customers and my daughter I think they value edge retention over extreme sharpness. The mainstream point of reference for sharpness I think is out of the box sharp. If you can easily slice a sales receipt or newsprint most people will rave about your work.
Quote from: joe103 on January 27, 2025, 07:59:08 PM120 BESS is still the best I've been able to pull off, and that isn't often. I've tried freehand honing, controlled angle honing, and higher angle honing using Vladim's book for reference. I have a Cuisinart knife from a kitchen set that I can't get past 150 BESS no matter how hard I try. I don't get it, I would have never dreamed it would be THIS hard with all the info and support from the sharpening community. I have a Victorinox knife that I got to 120 BESS, but can't get any lower. I'm honing with the Tormek compound on the leather wheel. I have a hanging leather strop that helps a little sometimes, sometimes not. I don't remember the last time I was this frustrated.
Apologies if I missed it: are you honing on the side opposite the burr first?
Update:
Regarding my BESS scores, I went back to Vadim's book and realized that I'd missed something. At the beginning of the Deburring chapter, he states that positive burr steels need to be honed higher than the edge angle. Specifically 2 degrees higher for mainstream steels. Then later in the chapter where he discusses his "differential honing", he states that his FIRST pass is at exactly the edge angle, THEN he goes to the higher angle. When I did that I suddenly started getting 70 to 90 BESS scores.
But hey, sharpness is only part of it. I've had a lot of fun working on my technique and getting the feel of this machine. Things like getting straight, even, and uniform bevels I've really focused on. How much pressure to use, both grinding and honing. Truing and grading the wheels, when to apply compound to the leather wheel, etc. I bought the SB-250 black wheel when I bought the Tormek. I've kept it graded coarse, and I switch to the SG-250 which I keep graded fine (most of the time). My intent is to minimize wear on the wheels by not grading back and forth. I bought diamond plates for grading the wheels, and they work great. Since both wheels are new, there isn't a significant difference in size (yet). I can go from the SB-250 to the SG-250 with no issues.
At the height of my frustration with my BESS scores, I ordered another leather wheel and the chromium oxide kit from Slipakniven. I thought going from the Tormek 3 micron abrasive to the .5 micron chromium oxide with .25 micron diamond abrasive would help with my sharpness scores, but it was my technique all along. Ah well, another honing wheel isn't a bad thing.
I have no intention of buying any other wheels, like CBN or diamond, yet. There's still a LOT of capability to squeeze out of the SG-250 and SB-250, I have a lot to learn yet, and I'm having a lot of fun along the way. Now if I can get my hands on more knives to sharpen...
"Apologies if I missed it: are you honing on the side opposite the burr first?"
Yes. Both Tormek and Vadim stress that, so that's how I do it.
It is easy to lose sight of the total picture of a product by focusing only on one aspect of it.
For example, Tormek PA-70. Over the years, I have heard it described with several grit ratings, including "we don't know". I have concluded that it defies grit measurement, which is not necessarily bad. As the compound is used, like garnet sandpaper, the grains break down and become finer. In a sense, this makes PA-70 a multigrit compound, unlike single grit diamond compounds. While the harder diamond grains may be superior for supersteels, PA-70 may have advantages for carbon steel. Unlike RAM in Apple computers, adding diamond compound at a later date is simply a matter of purchasing an additional leather wheel and diamond compound. This covers the "what if I eventually get a supersteel knife?" possibility.
What about using an SB coarse and an SG graded fine? While this method has some pros, it comes with an additional $200 cost and changing wheels. I have not used my SB enough to have a good sense of how effective a developed opinion of how effective the stone grader is with it. Based on Wootz' studies, I believe using inexpensive diamond plates is an effective grading option. No extra wheel cost; no changing wheels or need to reset for different wheel diameters.
Ken
Quote from: joe103 on February 11, 2025, 03:26:54 AMUpdate:
Regarding my BESS scores, I went back to Vadim's book and realized that I'd missed something. At the beginning of the Deburring chapter, he states that positive burr steels need to be honed higher than the edge angle. Specifically 2 degrees higher for mainstream steels. Then later in the chapter where he discusses his "differential honing", he states that his FIRST pass is at exactly the edge angle, THEN he goes to the higher angle. When I did that I suddenly started getting 70 to 90 BESS scores.
But hey, sharpness is only part of it. I've had a lot of fun working on my technique and getting the feel of this machine. Things like getting straight, even, and uniform bevels I've really focused on. How much pressure to use, both grinding and honing. Truing and grading the wheels, when to apply compound to the leather wheel, etc. I bought the SB-250 black wheel when I bought the Tormek. I've kept it graded coarse, and I switch to the SG-250 which I keep graded fine (most of the time). My intent is to minimize wear on the wheels by not grading back and forth. I bought diamond plates for grading the wheels, and they work great. Since both wheels are new, there isn't a significant difference in size (yet). I can go from the SB-250 to the SG-250 with no issues.
At the height of my frustration with my BESS scores, I ordered another leather wheel and the chromium oxide kit from Slipakniven. I thought going from the Tormek 3 micron abrasive to the .5 micron chromium oxide with .25 micron diamond abrasive would help with my sharpness scores, but it was my technique all along. Ah well, another honing wheel isn't a bad thing.
I have no intention of buying any other wheels, like CBN or diamond, yet. There's still a LOT of capability to squeeze out of the SG-250 and SB-250, I have a lot to learn yet, and I'm having a lot of fun along the way. Now if I can get my hands on more knives to sharpen...
Joe,
Well Joe, Looks like you're headed down the super sharp path. I started this journey a few years ago. For the record, I read Vadim stated that the Tormek grit was 3 to 6 microns and as Ken stated the grit breaks into smaller pieces as you use it. I have tried a small truck load of other diamond grits but none perform as Tormek's for the first pass on the hone except maybe Zam or Autosol. Diamond refine and polish well, but to start Tormek paste gets the nod IMHO.
As far as honing... you are correct, the slightest variation on technique will create a sub 100 score or hair whittling edge. I use a slow speed grinder with leather belts and various honing compounds. Recently I found that after running the blade on the Tormek wheel at the exact edge angle followed by the 1x30 to knock off the rest of the burr, will quickly give me 100 or below. The angle is critical of course.
I just got my frontal vertical base made for my buffer with slotted paper wheels. I have 6 micron diamond paste on one, chromium oxide and .25 diamonds on the other. As of yet I cannot obtain Wootz's results as of yet. I suspect you cannot shortcut Wootz's process of honing with progressively smaller particles and hope to achieve his results. The other factor which I think is even more critical than grit is the angles set during these process. If your measurements are off the tiniest bit I don't think you will see the results you hope to achieve.
Soooo, occasionally stropping with the belt following the wheel or just the belt I usually can get decent steel to 100 or below or very close to 100. Sometimes I will hit 70 to 50 but I think that is as much luck as technique as it is so challenging to achieve. The angle is so precise it's tough to duplicate while free handing the knife.
The last thing I will mention is that after honing and standing in front of the bench grinder, if my work area is well lit, when I am holding the knife edge next to the belt, I can see the shiny metal from the grind. If I rotate the edge closer to the belt I can see the shiny surface of the grind disappear, that's the angle you want to strop. I find a white towel under the belt on the grinder makes seeing that edge much easier.
Good luck on your journey... if you choose to continue down this rabbit hole you will need to sell a house and a couple cars. It can be far more expensive than it's worth. Even if you do achieve sub 100 it only stays there till someone uses the knife.
Al
Well, I got my leather honing wheel and chromium oxide kit. Quality of the leather wheel is excellent, but the chromium oxide kit was worthless. It consisted of a small amount of chromium oxide powder, a small bottle of linseed oil, and a small amount of. 25 micron diamond paste. I mixed per the instructions, applied it and let it sit overnight. Next day was a little tacky, but used it anyway. When I used it, the knife smoothed out the surface to a shiny finish. Next day it dried more and became a hard, glossy finish that was flaking off on the edges in a few places. After doing a couple knives, I noticed that there wasn't the slightest difference in polish on the bevel, and not one shred of swarf discoloration was on the wheel. I even grabbed one of the cheap kitchen knives I had and held the side of the knife against the wheel for two minutes while running it, and there wasn't the slightest detectable polish on the knife or swarf on the wheel. It's like a green plastic coating with no abrasive qualities whatsoever.
I'm going to sand off the wheel and get some more chromium oxide and diamond paste, only I'm going to mix it with paraffin this time and try again. I have some Venev 2 micron wax, but that's too close to the Tormek compound in abrasive size, and it seems redundant to me.
Has anyone else run into this issue with chromium oxide and linseed oil?
Quote from: joe103 on February 16, 2025, 04:48:31 PMHas anyone else run into this issue with chromium oxide and linseed oil?
Not entirely sure why linseed oil. Linseed oil is not recommended for leather and it hardens over time, especially if it is BLO which goes off in a week or so after exposure to air. You are better off using a non hardening oil such as a light machine oil, or - as you say - paraffin.
Joe, what angle are you using to sharpen the knives? You should know that it's much easier to achieve low BESS scores with lower edge angles. Most of Vadim's commercial sharpening was done at 12° per side. It's possible to achieve very low scores with higher edge angles, but the higher you go, the lower the margin for error. Also keep in mind that while Vadim recommended higher honing angles for lower-end steel, he always had at least a two-step honing process, with the final pass(es) at the exact sharpening angle.
Regarding compounds, for regular kitchen knives I think PA-70 is a better choice than 2 micron diamond, if you're only using one compound.