Just saw this on the Tormek Innovation YouTube channel.
https://youtu.be/SlmK7cdyKf8?si=Gmep9glb91snjpdq
Should make setting the angle so much w.
John, much talked about here on this thread
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php/topic,5250.0.html
Danny
I had the pleasure of testing the new angle setter KS-123. It is based on ideas from Perra and meets all expectations.
Quote from my conclusion:
It's a wonderful tool, well designed and beautifully realized. I will definitely start using it. So no more 'Dutchman's tables', kenjigs, spreadsheets or apps on smart phones or tablets. End of an era that began on April 14, 2014 with my publication of "Simple adjustment of the grinding angle". It took 10 years, but now it can be even simpler and more accurate.
Attached is my test report in PDF file.
Dutchman,
If there would ever be a Tormek Forum Hall of Fame, you certainly deserve to be a key member. Your tables made all that followed possible. I am pleased that Håkan chose you to test the prototype jig. No one understands knife angle setting better than you.
For the record, I do not believe Håkan lost interest in the project. When Håkan announced his desire for early retirement, Samuel, the new CEO, very wisely offered him a part time position as a technical consutant focusing on new roduct deveopment. Håkan has a wealth of knowledge and experience.
One of the high points of my visit to Tormek was being included in a meeting of the Design Committee. The committee included three Tormek employees: Tim, who I had not known before; Håkan, with whom I had shared emails; and Mats, the head of support. I suspect Mats can do any job in the shop. He has helped me innumerable times.
I was one of two guests at the meeting. The other guest was Per Ericson (Perra on the forum), a retired Swedish Industrial Engineer, who had independently designed a jig similar to the KS-123. Per is very personable, experienced, and smart. He fit right in with the group. I felt very honored to be included, like having the chance to discuss the early church with the apostles.
Ken
Wow, this is very exciting. Can't wait to get my hands on it. Hopefully the wait isn't too long in the U.S.
Any idea of price point?
Quote from: darita on May 20, 2024, 04:08:33 PMAny idea of price point?
$50 in US (per Tormek Inc)
Ken
$50? I'm amazed. I was expecting it to be a lot more. This is the same company that charges $80 for a rubber mat after all.
I can't wait to order one.
Available for sale at Sharpening Supplies already: https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/collections/accessories/products/tormek-ks-123-knife-angle-setter
Quote from: CopperFish on May 20, 2024, 07:37:54 PMAvailable for sale at Sharpening Supplies already: https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/collections/accessories/products/tormek-ks-123-knife-angle-setter
Quote from: CopperFish on May 20, 2024, 07:37:54 PMAvailable for sale at Sharpening Supplies already: https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/collections/accessories/products/tormek-ks-123-knife-angle-setter
Thanks! My order is in.
We will also have them available in Canada at AXEMAN.ca tomorrow. Happy sharpening!
Yes, I recall all of the discussion and Indeed I read the review from Dutchman. Just looking at the short was enough to convince me. Checking Australian suppliers does not show it yet.
I have also tested and evaluated the new KS-123 for some time and agree with Dutchman in his views. It is a simple and easy-to-use setting tool that we both had the privilege of influencing the execution of. Think it will become a "must have" tool for anyone working on knife sharpening with a Tormek. Håkan is extremely active in the development of new products and listens more than we think to ideas that we users bring to the forum. I had the privilege of meeting Ken on site at Tormek and can confirm that he has a great deal of experience and a burning interest in the art of sharpening tools in all different ways, and he is also a very nice man to be around. Continue to lead us in the jungle of knowledge.
I think all of you who wanted to buy my tool will be glad I didn't sell you one now that you can buy a similar "better" Tormek original tool instead.
Quote from: Perra on May 21, 2024, 01:11:29 AMI have also tested and evaluated the new KS-123 for some time and agree with Dutchman in his views. It is a simple and easy-to-use setting tool that we both had the privilege of influencing the execution of. Think it will become a "must have" tool for anyone working on knife sharpening with a Tormek. Håkan is extremely active in the development of new products and listens more than we think to ideas that we users bring to the forum. I had the privilege of meeting Ken on site at Tormek and can confirm that he has a great deal of experience and a burning interest in the art of sharpening tools in all different ways, and he is also a very nice man to be around. Continue to lead us in the jungle of knowledge.
I think all of you who wanted to buy my tool will be glad I didn't sell you one now that you can buy a similar "better" Tormek original tool instead.
I'm glad you got to provide input on their original design.
Placed my order with Sharpening Supplies for the KS-123 about five minutes after I got the email from TORMEK. The cost was $50, I thought they were going to cost more, so pleased with the price.
Will I be able to use this to set the angle on the honing wheel also?
Quote from: TireguyfromMA on May 21, 2024, 05:37:17 AMPlaced my order with Sharpening Supplies for the KS-123 about five minutes after I got the email from TORMEK. The cost was $50, I thought they were going to cost more, so pleased with the price.
Will I be able to use this to set the angle on the honing wheel also?
Yes, it has a self-adjustment function for different grinding an honing wheel sizes.
The new KS-123 jig is impressive. I predict that it will soon become the preferred method of knife setting. However, like most of the improved Tormek jigs and accessories, there are some cases where the present tools and techniques may be better suited. I will not be discarding my modified SVM-45s and kenjigs. Nor will I be deleting Calcapp. They are still as useful as they always were, even if in many cases the KS-123 is more useful.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on May 21, 2024, 04:37:36 PMThe new KS-123 jig is impressive. I predict that it will soon become the preferred method of knife setting. However, like most of the improved Tormek jigs and accessories, there are some cases where the present tools and techniques may be better suited. I will not be discarding my modified SVM-45s and kenjigs. Nor will I be deleting Calcapp. They are still as useful as they always were, even if in many cases the KS-123 is more useful.
Ken
High praise for sure. Can't wait to try it!
Hmmmm ... first Australian listing - AU$95 That is quite a mark up
https://www.woodtamer.com.au/collections/frontpage/products/ks-123-knife-angle-setter
Quote from: John Hancock Sr on May 22, 2024, 04:26:43 AMHmmmm ... first Australian listing - AU$95 That is quite a mark up
https://www.woodtamer.com.au/collections/frontpage/products/ks-123-knife-angle-setter
$20,- more is 3 schooners of beer. I can live with that :D
https://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/convert/?Amount=50&From=USD&To=AUD
I live in the US and know very little about marketing in Australia. However, I have seen numerous examples of excessive pricing in the US by Internet "dealers". The ads often claimed to offer a "discount" from inflated "list" prices. The ads often claim "free shipping"
When I want an accurate price in the US, I always check Hartville Hardware and Sharpening Supplies. I know and trust both of these establishments. I suggest you look around and compare. Check the Tormek website for Australian resellers. You will want to establish a long term customer relationship based on trust and good service. We have numerous Australian members on this forum. Use their experience and wisdom.
Ken
I like that you can also use it on the leather wheel. I have been honing at 1.5° more than sharpening angle and this tool will make setup easy. Keeping a constant projection distance between knives means multiple knives with no support bar adjustments.
Quote from: Ken S on May 22, 2024, 03:45:51 PMI live in the US and know very little about marketing in Australia.
We are often rorted by importers. Many a time I have bought much cheaper from overseas, including shipping and taxes. Some product lines more than others. Sony for instance is more than three times the $$ price here than in the US for not reason than it is. Take into account exchange rate and the reset that is about 50% over the odds. It is not as bad now that the Australian government clarified the law on parallel imports.
Speaking only about this jig, As per the current exchange rates a US$50 unit is AU75 add import taxes and that is $81.63 not $95. Someone is making an additional 15% profit.
As Charlie Brown used to say, you can't fight city hall ;)
Now all we need is one for the SE-77
Quote from: John Hancock Sr on May 23, 2024, 02:05:01 AMNow all we need is one for the SE-77
Rich Colvin has a jig he made for using with the SE-77 that you might find helpful...
Projection Jig for the TTS-100 (https://www.sharpeninghandbook.info/indexJigs.html#ProjJigTTS100)
My KS-123 arrived today. I first set up to sharpen a kitchen knife using the KJ-45 jig with the KS-123. After getting it all adjusted, I then measured the projection and entered the values into Calcapp which said the USB height should be 88.6mm. Measuring this after the angle setter was used yielded 88.7mm. I'd say this is well within specs of my inexpensive digital caliper used to take the measurement.
Even the first setup was quick after having watched the Tormek video.
I then used the angle setter to set the honing angle to 1 degree greater. Simple, with great results.
Quote from: cbwx34 on May 23, 2024, 02:26:07 AMRich Colvin has a jig he made for using with the SE-77 that you might find helpful...
I do have that but I tend to use the marker method for a one off. I have a set of chisels to do then I'll use the marker method for the first one, set the projection with a small double square then use that for the projection on the rest.
dang its sold out and no stock until July and no option to get reminder when in stock :(
Quote from: v6turbo on May 26, 2024, 03:31:18 AMdang its sold out and no stock until July and no option to get reminder when in stock :(
I ordered a second one from Sharpening Supplies yesterday and it noted restocking in two weeks.
Quote from: tcsharpen on May 24, 2024, 03:29:56 AMMy KS-123 arrived today. I first set up to sharpen a kitchen knife using the KJ-45 jig with the KS-123. After getting it all adjusted, I then measured the projection and entered the values into Calcapp which said the USB height should be 88.6mm. Measuring this after the angle setter was used yielded 88.7mm. I'd say this is well within specs of my inexpensive digital caliper used to take the measurement.
Even the first setup was quick after having watched the Tormek video.
Great to hear. I have 2 support bars so for knives I will be setting one for honing and one for sharpening. I will use my jig for setting the projection distance on each knife. Going this the new KS-123 won't be used too much unless someone wants a different angle.
I then used the angle setter to set the honing angle to 1 degree greater. Simple, with great results.
Quote from: John_B on May 27, 2024, 08:23:49 PMGreat to hear. I have 2 support bars so for knives I will be setting one for honing and one for sharpening. I will use my jig for setting the projection distance on each knife. Going this the new KS-123 won't be used too much unless someone wants a different angle.
I also have two USB, the one on the honing side in a MB-102. When switching knives, I set the projection, then I've just been setting up both sides with the KS-123 since it is so quick, then on to sharpening. So far with the knives I've been doing I've not been able to maintain the same projection between knives with the KJ-45.
Quote from: darita on May 26, 2024, 03:49:31 PMQuote from: v6turbo on May 26, 2024, 03:31:18 AMdang its sold out and no stock until July and no option to get reminder when in stock :(
I ordered a second one from Sharpening Supplies yesterday and it noted restocking in two weeks.
yesterday ? i have been check the site for 3-4 day never saw it in stock :(
I've just watched the video where Tormek demonstrate the use of the KS-123.
I don't know yet if I'm going to buy one, because I feel the calculator method serves me so well. Still it is quite appealing to dispense with measurements, especially the wheel diameter one. All in all, if I didn't have my vernier calipers already, the KS-123 would be the obvious choice. It is not very expensive.
A few comments on the video :
- I would have loved to have a vernier on the jig itself. Not necessarily to chase one tenth of a degree, but rather to improve the overall precision. Maybe they could just add a few markings on the composite needle plate that would help with centering on degrees or half degrees marks.
- It's quite funny to see them still struggling with their explanation that earlier methods (AngleMaster, uncontrolled honing, ...) were "not complex, but more complex" but really you should buy the KS-123 (and the MB-102).
- Couldn't the KS-123 also be used in combination with the sharpie trick to measure the edge angle of an unknown knife ?
- The fact that the KS-123 can be used with the SVM-00 assumes that it is easy to center the blade with respect to the plane of symmetry of the SVM-00. Spoiler alert: it is not. so using it the way it is demonstrated with a sloyd knife is a recipe for disaster: one will most certainly alter the edge angle of the knife and make it assymetrical. If you want to use the KS-123 with the SVM-00, you should take the time to center the blade first, with careful and repeated use of the sharpie trick. If it were easy, it would be demonstrated by Wolfgang in his video about the SVM-00. On the contrary, Wolfgang explains how to not center it.
Based on the film, you can have all kinds of suspicions of problems that may occur, but believe me, using the KS-123 is very convincing in its simplicity, precision and speed of use.
I even ordered the MB-102 now to be able to use the KS-123 with the honing wheel as well. But it's a pity that I also have to pay for that side piece for use with the side of diamond wheels. I will only use the MB-102 as a vertical base, replacing the construction I have now.
Dutchman, what side piece are you referring to ?
Quote from: tgbto on May 29, 2024, 11:04:33 AMI've just watched the video where Tormek demonstrate the use of the KS-123.
I don't know yet if I'm going to buy one, because I feel the calculator method serves me so well. Still it is quite appealing to dispense with measurements, especially the wheel diameter one. All in all, if I didn't have my vernier calipers already, the KS-123 would be the obvious choice. It is not very expensive.
I don't find it's necessary to measure the wheel diameter as accurately as once claimed. A simple ruler will suffice, and only needs to be updated periodically. I mark the measurement on the wheel with a Sharpie, and don't bother checking it again until the marking is worn off.
A few comments on the video :
- I would have loved to have a vernier on the jig itself. Not necessarily to chase one tenth of a degree, but rather to improve the overall precision. Maybe they could just add a few markings on the composite needle plate that would help with centering on degrees or half degrees marks.
I think the markings are adequate... it's pretty easy to judge "half degrees" if wanted. But really not necessary for its intended purpose.
- It's quite funny to see them still struggling with their explanation that earlier methods (AngleMaster, uncontrolled honing, ...) were "not complex, but more complex" but really you should buy the KS-123 (and the MB-102).
Tormek has always "struggled" denied that the AngleMaster didn't work properly on knives with a taper... so probably the reason they struggle now?
- Couldn't the KS-123 also be used in combination with the sharpie trick to measure the edge angle of an unknown knife ?
Yes, once you do the "sharpie trick" just set the Projection Distance (or "protrusion" as Tormek calls it) on the KS-123, "snap" it on the USB, set it on the wheel per instructions, and it will tell you the angle.
- The fact that the KS-123 can be used with the SVM-00 assumes that it is easy to center the blade with respect to the plane of symmetry of the SVM-00. Spoiler alert: it is not. so using it the way it is demonstrated with a sloyd knife is a recipe for disaster: one will most certainly alter the edge angle of the knife and make it assymetrical. If you want to use the KS-123 with the SVM-00, you should take the time to center the blade first, with careful and repeated use of the sharpie trick. If it were easy, it would be demonstrated by Wolfgang in his video about the SVM-00. On the contrary, Wolfgang explains how to not center it.
Obviously depends on the knife, but I've used the SVM-00 a bit (more when I used a Wicked Edge sharpener for some reason), and didn't think it was that difficult to set up a knife... does take a bit of practice though.
Of course, some of the above depends on your methodology... if "decimal point" accuracy is important, I think a calculator will still be the preferred way to set things up, as well as more accurate measurements.
Quote from: tgbto on May 29, 2024, 02:04:02 PMDutchman, what side piece are you referring to ?
I'm guessing the MB-100 portion where you sharpen on the side of the wheel.
Quote from: darita on May 26, 2024, 03:49:31 PMQuote from: v6turbo on May 26, 2024, 03:31:18 AMdang its sold out and no stock until July and no option to get reminder when in stock :(
I ordered a second one from Sharpening Supplies yesterday and it noted restocking in two weeks.
I ordered one the day they were released and it said shipping in about two weeks. Now it says they'll be getting more stock in July.
Quote from: tgbto on May 29, 2024, 02:04:02 PMDutchman, what side piece are you referring to ?
Quote from: 3D Anvil on May 30, 2024, 05:51:42 AMQuote from: darita on May 26, 2024, 03:49:31 PMQuote from: v6turbo on May 26, 2024, 03:31:18 AMdang its sold out and no stock until July and no option to get reminder when in stock :(
I ordered a second one from Sharpening Supplies yesterday and it noted restocking in two weeks.
I ordered one the day they were released and it said shipping in about two weeks. Now it says they'll be getting more stock in July.
Where did you order from? I ordered from Sharpening Supplies on what i believed to be the day of release. I received mine days ago. A day after the first order, I ordered a second one and it was indicated shipping in two weeks. We'll see if it does ship.
Quote from: darita on May 30, 2024, 02:42:28 PMQuote from: 3D Anvil on May 30, 2024, 05:51:42 AMQuote from: darita on May 26, 2024, 03:49:31 PMQuote from: v6turbo on May 26, 2024, 03:31:18 AMdang its sold out and no stock until July and no option to get reminder when in stock :(
I ordered a second one from Sharpening Supplies yesterday and it noted restocking in two weeks.
I ordered one the day they were released and it said shipping in about two weeks. Now it says they'll be getting more stock in July.
Where did you order from? I ordered from Sharpening Supplies on what i believed to be the day of release. I received mine days ago. A day after the first order, I ordered a second one and it was indicated shipping in two weeks. We'll see if it does ship.
I also ordered from sharpeningsupplies.com. I guess I must have missed the first batch by a matter of hours or minutes. Mine hasn't shipped yet, either.
This was a disappointment. After biting the bullet and getting MB-102, a second USB and the KS-123, which was out of stock in almost every shop here in Sweden, only to find out that the angle meter was delivered without the "retractable part".
Does this render the meter useless, or can I use it somehow?
Quote from: Swemek on May 30, 2024, 09:08:50 PMThis was a disappointment. After biting the bullet and getting MB-102, a second USB and the KS-123, which was out of stock in almost every shop here in Sweden, only to find out that the angle meter was delivered without the "retractable part".
Does this render the meter useless, or can I use it somehow?
Is the "retractable part" the spring? (Can't tell for sure on the diagram.) Anyway, I'd let Tormek support know right away... to get a replacement, and also let them know if it's a production issue. (Might check the box closely and see if it's in there.)
If it is the spring, I'd say yes, in the interim you can still use it, just slide it forward with with your thumb/finger. Once you set the "protrusion" it's not needed anyway. (In fact, I'm not sure the spring is needed all that much.)
Quote from: cbwx34 on May 30, 2024, 10:16:06 PM(In fact, I'm not sure the spring is needed all that much.)
It may not be entirely needed, but I like that it is there. It pulls the angled section into the blade.
Quote from: tcsharpen on May 31, 2024, 03:46:47 AMQuote from: cbwx34 on May 30, 2024, 10:16:06 PM(In fact, I'm not sure the spring is needed all that much.)
It may not be entirely needed, but I like that it is there. It pulls the angled section into the blade.
I don't disagree.
What I did prior to answering earlier was tighten the "Knob for locking Protrusion" enough so that the spring didn't have any affect, and found that I could manipulate the jig quite well without the spring's influence. But it is a convenient feature.
Quote from: cbwx34 on May 31, 2024, 03:58:28 AMQuote from: tcsharpen on May 31, 2024, 03:46:47 AMQuote from: cbwx34 on May 30, 2024, 10:16:06 PM(In fact, I'm not sure the spring is needed all that much.)
It may not be entirely needed, but I like that it is there. It pulls the angled section into the blade.
I don't disagree.
What I did prior to answering earlier was tighten the "Knob for locking Protrusion" enough so that the spring didn't have any affect, and found that I could manipulate the jig quite well without the spring's influence. But it is a convenient feature.
Oh yes, totally agree with this. Once locked in place the spring has zero impact.
Quote from: tcsharpen on May 31, 2024, 04:04:35 AMQuote from: cbwx34 on May 31, 2024, 03:58:28 AMQuote from: tcsharpen on May 31, 2024, 03:46:47 AMQuote from: cbwx34 on May 30, 2024, 10:16:06 PM(In fact, I'm not sure the spring is needed all that much.)
It may not be entirely needed, but I like that it is there. It pulls the angled section into the blade.
I don't disagree.
What I did prior to answering earlier was tighten the "Knob for locking Protrusion" enough so that the spring didn't have any affect, and found that I could manipulate the jig quite well without the spring's influence. But it is a convenient feature.
Oh yes, totally agree with this. Once locked in place the spring has zero impact.
Not quite what I meant... I just tightened it enough to negate the spring, I could still slide protrusion piece back and forth to set the distance, without the spring doing anything... then tightened it down.
Regarding accuracy of the KS-123, my first post in this thread addressed my simple test and observed results. The Calcapp calculated USB height was just .1mm different than was set with the KS-123 and measured with an inexpensive digital caliper. I think that is within measurement error and accuracy of my caliper.
Quote from: cbwx34 on May 31, 2024, 04:11:42 AMQuote from: tcsharpen on May 31, 2024, 04:04:35 AMQuote from: cbwx34 on May 31, 2024, 03:58:28 AMQuote from: tcsharpen on May 31, 2024, 03:46:47 AMQuote from: cbwx34 on May 30, 2024, 10:16:06 PM(In fact, I'm not sure the spring is needed all that much.)
It may not be entirely needed, but I like that it is there. It pulls the angled section into the blade.
I don't disagree.
What I did prior to answering earlier was tighten the "Knob for locking Protrusion" enough so that the spring didn't have any affect, and found that I could manipulate the jig quite well without the spring's influence. But it is a convenient feature.
Oh yes, totally agree with this. Once locked in place the spring has zero impact.
Not quite what I meant... I just tightened it enough to negate the spring, I could still slide protrusion piece back and forth to set the distance, without the spring doing anything... then tightened it down.
Sure, the key point being you negated the spring, whether locked tight or providing just the right amount of friction.
Quote from: cbwx34 on May 30, 2024, 10:16:06 PMQuote from: Swemek on May 30, 2024, 09:08:50 PMThis was a disappointment. After biting the bullet and getting MB-102, a second USB and the KS-123, which was out of stock in almost every shop here in Sweden, only to find out that the angle meter was delivered without the "retractable part".
Does this render the meter useless, or can I use it somehow?
Is the "retractable part" the spring? (Can't tell for sure on the diagram.) Anyway, I'd let Tormek support know right away... to get a replacement, and also let them know if it's a production issue. (Might check the box closely and see if it's in there.)
If it is the spring, I'd say yes, in the interim you can still use it, just slide it forward with with your thumb/finger. Once you set the "protrusion" it's not needed anyway. (In fact, I'm not sure the spring is needed all that much.)
No actually the whole sliding plastic thing with a knob and the spring.
I was so frustrated yesterday so i did some reverse engineering and build the part myself. It works, the only thing missing is the spring.
Of course i have no way to check how reliable it is but i get perfect fit when checking with the old angle meter.
Some pics:
Barbord (https://flic.kr/p/2pUyskw)
Styrbord (https://flic.kr/p/2pUrFZX)
I called Tormek and they will send me a new one today. That is what i call (great) SUPPORT.
Quote from: Swemek on May 31, 2024, 11:14:23 AMNo actually the whole sliding plastic thing with a knob and the spring.
I was so frustrated yesterday so i did some reverse engineering and build the part myself. It works, the only thing missing is the spring.
Of course i have no way to check how reliable it is but i get perfect fit when checking with the old angle meter.
Some pics:
Barbord (https://flic.kr/p/2pUyskw)
Styrbord (https://flic.kr/p/2pUrFZX)
Yikes. Yeah I guess that wasn't accidentally left in the box. ;)
Looks like you came up with a good temporary solution. Congrats on the temporary solve! :)
Quote from: cbwx34 on May 31, 2024, 02:15:35 PMQuote from: Swemek on May 31, 2024, 11:14:23 AMNo actually the whole sliding plastic thing with a knob and the spring.
I was so frustrated yesterday so i did some reverse engineering and build the part myself. It works, the only thing missing is the spring.
Of course i have no way to check how reliable it is but i get perfect fit when checking with the old angle meter.
Some pics:
Barbord (https://flic.kr/p/2pUyskw)
Styrbord (https://flic.kr/p/2pUrFZX)
Yikes. Yeah I guess that wasn't accidentally left in the box. ;)
Looks like you came up with a good temporary solution. Congrats on the temporary solve! :)
Thanks, my frustration was channeled that way. And it does offer repeatability, but 15.5 degrees per side might be 15 degrees.
Quote from: Swemek on May 31, 2024, 04:19:26 PMThanks, my frustration was channeled that way. And it does offer repeatability, but 15.5 degrees per side might be 15 degrees.
You could always check it against a calculator app, but if you're within 1/2 a degree making that from, I'm guessing pictures? Hats off. I wouldn't worry about it.
(That level of accuracy is a bit overhyped anyway.)
For anyone in the Portland, Oregon area, Woodcrafters, in NE Portland, have a couple more of these jigs in stock. I picked one up and cancelled my order with Sharpening Supplies (They said they were going to ship sometime next week.)
The suppliers in Australia who are showing it are al either Out Of Stock, or Pre-Order. So clearly the Australian stock is still on its way.
Quote from: cbwx34 on May 31, 2024, 04:34:03 PMQuote from: Swemek on May 31, 2024, 04:19:26 PMThanks, my frustration was channeled that way. And it does offer repeatability, but 15.5 degrees per side might be 15 degrees.
You could always check it against a calculator app, but if you're within 1/2 a degree making that from, I'm guessing pictures? Hats off. I wouldn't worry about it.
(That level of accuracy is a bit overhyped anyway.)
To be honest, I was totally wrong about repeatability. It turned out to be far off on smaller pocket knifes. Anyhow I'm expecting a new one today.
Boy, has this jig simplified my setup process. I'm thrilled with the elimination of formulas and measurements. This thing is genius.
For those who have experience with this jig : how easy is it to replicate a protrusion distance with it along with a SVM jig ? Simple enough or is it easier to take a separate measurement using the wood-block method ?
Thanks !
Quote from: tgbto on June 03, 2024, 02:48:47 PMFor those who have experience with this jig : how easy is it to replicate a protrusion distance with it along with a SVM jig ? Simple enough or is it easier to take a separate measurement using the wood-block method ?
Thanks !
There's no difference in using the KJ vs the SVM jig to set up the KS-123.
BTW, for a bit of trivia, the KS handles a Projection Distance of 122-158 mm.
Quote from: cbwx34 on June 03, 2024, 03:18:52 PMThere's no difference in using the KJ vs the SVM jig to set up the KS-123.
BTW, for a bit of trivia, the KS handles a Projection Distance of 122-158 mm.
I understand that ^^
I might not have been clear enough : I was thinking of how when you set the whole thingamajig up with a given protrusion distance, and you want to use the adjustability of the SVM to setup another knife for the same sharpening angle. Ie not adjust the jig to the second knife then adjust USB, but rather use the SVM handle to adjust the protrusion distance to match that of the first knife without touching the USB. Does it make sense ?
Quote from: tgbto on June 03, 2024, 03:30:19 PMI understand that ^^
I might not have been clear enough : I was thinking of how when you set the whole thingamajig up with a given protrusion distance, and you want to use the adjustability of the SVM to setup another knife for the same sharpening angle. Ie not adjust the jig to the second knife then adjust USB, but rather use the SVM handle to adjust the protrusion distance to match that of the first knife without touching the USB. Does it make sense ?
Ah, it does now.
You could just leave the KS jig set at the desired Protrusion, then for the second knife snap on the KS jig and hold the SVM stop against the USB and move it in or out until it matches. I don't think one would be easier than the other?... other than you'd have to attach the KS jig each time, vs having the wood block sitting there might be a bit easier.
Quote from: cbwx34 on June 03, 2024, 03:18:52 PMQuote from: tgbto on June 03, 2024, 02:48:47 PMFor those who have experience with this jig : how easy is it to replicate a protrusion distance with it along with a SVM jig ? Simple enough or is it easier to take a separate measurement using the wood-block method ?
Thanks !
There's no difference in using the KJ vs the SVM jig to set up the KS-123.
BTW, for a bit of trivia, the KS handles a Projection Distance of 122-158 mm.
These are questions I'm going to be interested in exploring, soon. I picked up the new angle setting tool at a retail store recently, but I'm not at home, so haven't been able to try it out. I have a KJ jig but have not been a fan of it yet due to the inability to adjust the protrusion (using the moveable stop as on the SVM jigs). I'm glad to see the projection range values for the KS-123, I've been wondering about that. I read folks saying the KS is "fast and easy" to use, but unless the knife projection is exactly the same from one knife to another, one has to change the USB height for each different projection. I realize it may be possible to set projections the same using the KJ jigs, within a limited range, but it is just not the same as the SVM where the range is much wider.
I have 6 SVMs (4 45s and 2 140s) so can set up, up to six knives with exactly the same projection and run through all six, and can run all six across four grinding wheels (180 CBN, DC, DF and DE) without changing the USB height. That is fast and easy and will be what I compare with when trying out the combination of the KJ and KS.
Just out of curiousity, has anyone determined the range of blade widths that can be set to the same projection using the KJ jigs? It would be a matter of how deeply the spine of each blade is gripped in the KJ jaws, correct? Can't be very much and still have a good grip on the narrower blades.
Quote from: Swemek on June 03, 2024, 02:25:56 PMQuote from: cbwx34 on May 31, 2024, 04:34:03 PMQuote from: Swemek on May 31, 2024, 04:19:26 PMThanks, my frustration was channeled that way. And it does offer repeatability, but 15.5 degrees per side might be 15 degrees.
You could always check it against a calculator app, but if you're within 1/2 a degree making that from, I'm guessing pictures? Hats off. I wouldn't worry about it.
(That level of accuracy is a bit overhyped anyway.)
To be honest, I was totally wrong about repeatability. It turned out to be far off on smaller pocket knifes. Anyhow I'm expecting a new one today.
Interesting. Well, at least it kept you distracted waiting for the replacement. ;)
Quote from: RickKrung on June 03, 2024, 03:52:24 PM...
Just out of curiousity, has anyone determined the range of blade widths that can be set to the same projection using the KJ jigs? It would be a matter of how deeply the spine of each blade is gripped in the KJ jaws, correct? Can't be very much and still have a good grip on the narrower blades.
Ken posted this a while back... (I haven't verified it).
Quote from: Ken S on December 14, 2022, 02:10:29 AM3D,
You have posted a well done, balanced comparison. I do have some thoughts on comment: " * Handle/stop is fixed, so you can't adjust projection distance".
I agree somewhat; the end stop is not threaded and cannot be adjusted. However,
the amount of insertion in the clamp jaws can can be varied from 2 to almost 13 mm. That is a range of almost 12mm. Most kitchen knives fall in the range of 12 mm to 50 mm. This translates to four or five kenjig style Projection settings. Admittedly, one pre 2002 SVM-45 jig can handle this entire range.
I do not intend to imply that the KJ-45 is as convenient to adjust as the
SVM-45. I only want to state that the KJ-45 is not entirely "fixed" in Projection.
Ken
I use 5 and 6-inch Victorinox boning knives and 8 and 10-inch breaking knives which are quite a bit wider than the boning knives.
I have a setup with a block and a measuring ruler and Most knives can handle the 125 mm protrusion.
I just put the knife in the kj 45 jig and before I tighten it up I push it against the block to get a consistent 125 mm protrusion and push down on the jaws so it can't move and tighten up the screw.
I usually do anywhere from 10 to 30 knives at a time this way and its fast and repeatable.
The only issue I've had is on the thicker victory knives but it can also work on them
Just ordered mine from one of my favourite Australian Tormek dealers from eBay. Just appeared as a new listing today so their stocks must have just arrived. Funny twist, the listing is AU$95 which appears to be the RRP with $10 shipping. But the listing has a $10 discount voucher. So in effect free shipping!
Can't wait to try it out. Our kitchen knives need re-sharpening so it will do overtime when it arrives.
Quote from: John Hancock Sr on June 04, 2024, 12:45:25 AMJust ordered mine from one of my favourite Australian Tormek dealers from eBay. Just appeared as a new listing today so their stocks must have just arrived. Funny twist, the listing is AU$95 which appears to be the RRP with $10 shipping. But the listing has a $10 discount voucher. So in effect free shipping!
Can't wait to try it out. Our kitchen knives need re-sharpening so it will do overtime when it arrives.
Got mine a few days ago.
You will love it. Absolute child's play to set up.
Like others said, add 1/2 to 1 degree for the honing and you have a close to perfect result in double quick time.
Despite that I have my T8 just a month at most and just sharpened less then a dozen knifes, the ease of use for the combo KS-123 & MB102 gives very precise results, spatially for guys like me that are new to the Tormek/Grinder experience.
Quote from: AlInAussieLand on June 05, 2024, 02:28:39 AMGot mine a few days ago.
Where did you get yours from? All of the listings I saw were OOS or pre-order.
Quote from: John Hancock Sr on June 06, 2024, 12:32:02 AMQuote from: AlInAussieLand on June 05, 2024, 02:28:39 AMGot mine a few days ago.
Where did you get yours from? All of the listings I saw were OOS or pre-order.
Got mine from "Wood Tamer" https://www.woodtamer.com.au/collections/tormek-tool-sharpening-system-and-accessories/products/ks-123-knife-angle-setter (https://www.woodtamer.com.au/collections/tormek-tool-sharpening-system-and-accessories/products/ks-123-knife-angle-setter)
It was a little bit more expensive due to their postage costs, but I would say that I got mine as one of the very first here in OZ>
Quote from: AlInAussieLand on June 06, 2024, 01:01:32 AMGot mine from "Wood Tamer"
I never saw it come off pre-order. They must have pre-sold the first shipment. I am a little more mercenary so I waited until I could get one RRP!
Mine should be here tomorrow. Going straight to my parcel locker.
Mine arrived today, also from Wood Tamer.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RCD3vfvz/IMG-5012.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MX1ZDncs)
Just got this from Sharpening Supplies, where I have an order for a second that was placed the day after release...
"Thank you for your order of the KS-123. We wanted to reach out to you to keep you up to date on the status of your order.
Months of planning and preparation were put into place anticipating the release of the new KS-123. Demand far exceeded the factory's (and our) expectations. Due to the overwhelming popularity of this item, the factory is diligently in production and they are planning to air ship more jigs to us. We're looking forward to receiving our shipment in approx. 1-2 weeks.
Please rest assured that we do have one on reserve for you, and as soon as we receive our shipment, we will ship your order out to you immediately. We will alert you by sending you a shipping confirmation at that time.
I apologize for the extremely long wait. Thank you for your patience."
I got the same email, and I ordered the morning of release. >:(
Very new Tormek user from years of WE.
Just received mine, haven't worked with it yet. Try this link at Rockler
https://www.rockler.com/tormek-ks-123-knife-angle-setter?sid=V91023&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw1K-zBhBIEiwAWeCOFyV2ib4j-oEg3DIWPedCpxcc-877bgcRp7BBN3bq2AonCQItKWaYgxoC4a4QAvD_BwE
FYI
sharpening supplies show it in stock and i just ordered one !!
Mine shipped today and should be delivered on Monday.
Ken
Mine as well should arrive on Monday. I ordered this second one the day after release from Sharpening Supplies.
When you get yours guys, can you do a check for me with a practise knife?
Try setting it up trailing...
So, using the MB-102 Multibase and setting it up for trailing type grinding on the stone, try setting the angle to lets say 15 degree and put a grind on it.
Mine without a doubt creates a far more shallow grind then 15 degrees.
Grinding it the traditional way, so with the stone turning towards the edge while grinding, the angle is spot on.
Quote from: AlInAussieLand on June 15, 2024, 02:51:01 PMWhen you get yours guys, can you do a check for me with a practise knife?
Try setting it up trailing...
So, using the MB-102 Multibase and setting it up for trailing type grinding on the stone, try setting the angle to lets say 15 degree and put a grind on it.
Mine without a doubt creates a far more shallow grind then 15 degrees.
Grinding it the traditional way, so with the stone turning towards the edge while grinding, the angle is spot on.
While I knew without a doubt it would be the same, I tested it anyway. Regardless of the setup (edge leading, edge trailing, MB-102, etc.), it's the same result when setup with the KS jig. So, I'm not sure why you're seeing a noticeably different result. One thought I had is your not readjusting the height of the USB when switching? Or maybe the "Protrusion" setting slipped?
One thing you could check is the distance from the top of the USB to the wheel (following an imaginary line to the center), that distance should be the same between your two setups (edge leading vs. MB-102). (Basically what a calculator that measures directly to the wheel does.) You could try setting the height this way, then check with the KS jig... maybe that'll help spot why there's a difference.
I had my MB-102 a fair way out horizontal, which lowers the vertical guide bar. But that shouldn't make any difference as the stone is round.
Just to clarify.
On both tests, the KS-123 was adjusted for the knife/holder setup and then the vertical bar was adjusted to 15 degrees.
I am going to re-test it tomorrow.
Quote from: AlInAussieLand on June 15, 2024, 04:18:27 PMI had my MB-102 a fair way out horizontal, which lowers the vertical guide bar. But that shouldn't make any difference as the stone is round.
Just to clarify.
...
You're right, the MB-102 distance out won't matter either.
Finally got my KS-123 today! So far I'm impressed! Pretty easy to use out of the box, and accurate? Set this to 15 dps:
(https://i.postimg.cc/YCK6g9Np/KS-123-15dps.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xc5NV9F7)
Having said that, there appears to be a significant limitation to this jig....
(https://i.postimg.cc/3RPnfH07/IMG-3684.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hz1Lh603)
It looks like you have to have at least 1.5 - 2" of blade on the left side of the knife jig in order to reach the stone and thus set the correct projection distance. Unless I'm missing something obvious?
Quote from: 3D Anvil on June 18, 2024, 11:10:38 PMHaving said that, there appears to be a significant limitation to this jig....
IMG-3684.jpg
It looks like you have to have at least 1.5 - 2" of blade on the left side of the knife jig in order to reach the stone and thus set the correct projection distance. Unless I'm missing something obvious?
The knife doesn't have to reach the stone to set the distance, just needs to fit in the 'V' shaped plastic piece. (The instructions even say to make sure the knife doesn't slide against the wheel while setting it.) In fact, the jig itself doesn't even have to touch the wheel.
Quote from: cbwx34 on June 18, 2024, 11:33:12 PMQuote from: 3D Anvil on June 18, 2024, 11:10:38 PMHaving said that, there appears to be a significant limitation to this jig....
IMG-3684.jpg
It looks like you have to have at least 1.5 - 2" of blade on the left side of the knife jig in order to reach the stone and thus set the correct projection distance. Unless I'm missing something obvious?
The knife doesn't have to reach the stone to set the distance, just needs to fit in the 'V' shaped plastic piece. (The instructions even say to make sure the knife doesn't slide against the wheel while setting it.) In fact, the jig itself doesn't even have to touch the wheel.
Oh, we're supposed to read the MANUAL now?! ;D
I was able to set it correctly after 2-3 tries, but it's definitely trickier with shorter blades, IMO.
Quote from: 3D Anvil on June 19, 2024, 12:04:44 AMOh, we're supposed to read the MANUAL now?! ;D
Screenshot 2024-06-18.png
;D ;D ;D
If it's worrying you , you can always flip the knife over to set in the vee on the straighter portion of the blade?
Sorry that wasn't very clear.
I noticed from the instructional video that the the protrusion was being set in the vee of the jig at the belly of the knife and thought it may be problematic as the correct protrusion should be set before the curve of the belly ( ie on the straight portion of the blade) to allow for pivoting and or raising to follow the curvature of the blade.
If you flip the knife ( handle on the left) you'll hit the vee at a straighter portion of the blade for most kitchen knives.
Can't be said of shorter blades I suppose...
Or, like Pers prototype, could one set the projection before going near the stone?
It occurred to me that they could put a projection scale on the jig, so you could set it manually that way.
Quote from: 3D Anvil on June 19, 2024, 02:03:58 AMIt occurred to me that they could put a projection scale on the jig, so you could set it manually that way.
If you have a combo square, caliper, etc. you could use that to set the Projection...
IMG_1302a.jpg
... a scale would be convenient though.
Quote from: Sir Amwell on June 19, 2024, 12:54:36 AM...
Or, like Pers prototype, could one set the projection before going near the stone?
You can set it away from the stone, but for ease of use, should be snapped on the USB.
Depending on the knife blade/handle length, and perhaps whether you have the longer US-430 USB, you could even put the KS-123 onto the USB out past the stone, or even hanging down from the USB, and set the projection. Then the weight of the knife/jig helps ensure it is against the USB and the spring brings the v up to the knife edge. Then slide it over to set the angle on the stone. It is really quite flexible how you do it.
Quote from: cbwx34 on June 19, 2024, 02:33:24 AMQuote from: 3D Anvil on June 19, 2024, 02:03:58 AMIt occurred to me that they could put a projection scale on the jig, so you could set it manually that way.
If you have a combo square, caliper, etc. you could use that to set the Projection...
IMG_1302a.jpg
... a scale would be convenient though.
Great idea!
This thing was a game changer for me. It's so much quicker and more fun to sharpen knives since I got it. KS-123 made me sell my diamond stone, invest in a second machine. It is very nice not having to remove either the stone or the honing wheel.
Wow huge difference for me too, I have t4, and I just use it for my knives.
Tried it on a pocket knife, got 78 BESS score
Using it for the other honing side is so much better and easy to do 1/2 degrees higher too
Love this !
Quote from: AlInAussieLand on June 15, 2024, 02:51:01 PMWhen you get yours guys, can you do a check for me with a practise knife?
Try setting it up trailing...
So, using the MB-102 Multibase and setting it up for trailing type grinding on the stone, try setting the angle to lets say 15 degree and put a grind on it.
Mine without a doubt creates a far more shallow grind then 15 degrees.
Grinding it the traditional way, so with the stone turning towards the edge while grinding, the angle is spot on.
I have T4 and the honing wheel is very small, I have to be careful and adjust the in/out of the mb-102 to get angle under 15
I just did a 12 angel and it had to fuss with it to clear everything for the 123 jig.
however once its all clear it works - for 10 angel i think i need bigger honing wheel
I just used this in my 2inch ZDP-189 on 12 degree and got 57-62-52 BESS test on the clips :)
massive game change for people like me that sharpen house knives and are not able to build up the muscle memory for honing
the MB-200 was confusing and inconsistent
for example going from my find diamond stone to SJ 4000 i checked the angel really fast and it was maybe 1/4 degree off and i was able to quickly correct this, impossible with the other methods
I wonder if digital angle gauge can be used some how to ensure exact angels ?
Quote from: v6turbo on June 22, 2024, 10:42:22 PM...
I wonder if digital angle gauge can be used some how to ensure exact angels ?
I'm not sure there is with the KS jig, but Perra has made a couple of forum threads that might interest you...
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=4885.0
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php/topic=5510.0
Quote from: v6turbo on June 22, 2024, 10:42:22 PM...
I wonder if digital angle gauge can be used some how to ensure exact angels ?
What do you mean by "exact"? By using the KS-123, the angle "exactly" becomes the value you choose on the scale. You have to trust that scale, but that also applies to the values given by the digital angle gauge.
All measuring tools have inheritent limitations. Perhaps we should say "within tolerance" instead of "exact".
Ken
Quote from: Dutchman on June 24, 2024, 10:21:48 AMQuote from: v6turbo on June 22, 2024, 10:42:22 PM...
I wonder if digital angle gauge can be used some how to ensure exact angels ?
What do you mean by "exact"? By using the KS-123, the angle "exactly" becomes the value you choose on the scale. You have to trust that scale, but that also applies to the values given by the digital angle gauge.
with my other sharpener i set the angle exactly to within 0.1 degree
i'm wondering if i can set the angle gauge on the top of the 123 and verify the angle, the gauge on the 123 is nice but its still just "eyeballing" it - especially since this can be very much affect by viewing angle of the 123
i'll have to find another knife and try this out later...... all my knives are suddenly sharp now lol
In my limited experience, the 123 let's you get to within about 0.5° accuracy, with about half of that variation coming from the slop in the USB threads.
Is it really so important that the angle is very precise? I think it is important to get the same angle from grinding to grinding to avoid unnecessary material waist. For the use of the knife it makes no difference if the angle is 14, 15 or 16 degrees.
Quick way to match the existing angle using the marker method & the KS-123?
Quote from: KnifeChef on June 24, 2024, 09:54:57 PMQuick way to match the existing angle using the marker method & the KS-123?
Setting/matching the angle using the marker method, is done independent of the KS-123 (or any other method for setting the angle on the Tormek, other than something that measures the angle on the knife itself). You can use the KS-123 to check what the angle is, after matching the current angle on the knife.
I'm curious, not being critical. If I was able to set a knife bevel angle to within 0.1°, why would I waste all that effort by actually using and dulling the knife? I would certainly not waste all of that effort on anything but a very expensive knife.
Proper viewing angle (straight on) is essential to minimize "eyeballing" with any measuring tool with a scale, not just the KS-123.
Beyond a certain level of precision in angle setting, we switch from good workmanship to satisfying our egos. I agree with Drillon. My vegetables on the cutting board do not care if the bevel angles are 14, 15, or 16°, as long as the knife is sharp.
In my opinion, the KJ-123 is a giant step ahead of the Anglemaster for setting knife bevel angles. It is designed to be a working tool, something it does very well. I do not expect any $50 tool to be laboratory quality.
Ken
Quote from: v6turbo on June 24, 2024, 05:06:31 PM...
with my other sharpener i set the angle exactly to within 0.1 degree
...
I've said it before, but I doubt anyone is setting the angle to within 0.1 degree on any device... nor is it necessary. There's just too many factors involved, starting with the angle gauge itself... most aren't even rated to that level. You can also get greater changes by how much pressure you use, how much metal is removed, "slop" in the machine, etc. If one is that concerned to that level, the KS-123 probably isn't the route I'd take to do it.
The work done that said that 0.X degrees was needed, for example, to debur a knife, was, for lack of a better term, a work of fiction.
Quote from: Ken S on June 24, 2024, 11:01:25 PM...
the KJ-123 is a giant step ahead of the Anglemaster for setting knife bevel angles.
...
Exactly.
I do like to be able to set the angle to within about half a degree. Why? Because then I know exactly how to set my WS with blade grinder attachment to deburr the blade after sharpening, and at least as importantly, how to set it to strop the knife in between sharpenings.
I'll also amend my earlier statement about the accuracy of the KS-123. I think that, if you're *really* careful about setting it up, you can get accuracy better than +/- 0.5°. Being really careful in this case means getting down to the level of the gauge to check the angle, and then rechecking it after tightening down the USB, and then adjusting as necessary. I'm finding that the angle shifts half a degree or so after tightening, even when I try to apply pressure to the USB when measuring.
Quote from: 3D Anvil on June 25, 2024, 12:13:47 AMI'm finding that the angle shifts half a degree or so after tightening, even when I try to apply pressure to the USB when measuring.
I noticed the same thing, due to the USB slop as mentioned. +-0.3 deg accuracy is probably a realistic expectation in my opinion. This is perfectly acceptable for my purposes, for honing ever so slightly steeper than the bevel at a fixed angle.
The KS-123 is accurate enough to detect the need to re-adjust the USB when moving between the composite and leather honing wheels. They only differ a few mm's in diameter. Not that I necessarily use that progression, but I noticed it while playing around earlier this week.
Quote from: cbwx34 on June 24, 2024, 11:22:18 PMQuote from: Ken S on June 24, 2024, 11:01:25 PM...
the KJ-123 is a giant step ahead of the Anglemaster for setting knife bevel angles.
...
Exactly.
Yup, and at a very good price point, I must say. Seeing how much they bill for a rubber mat, I was a bit worried to KS-123 would be in the USD 100+ range. Far from it
Quote from: 3D Anvil on June 25, 2024, 12:13:47 AMI do like to be able to set the angle to within about half a degree. Why? Because then I know exactly how to set my WS with blade grinder attachment to deburr the blade after sharpening, and at least as importantly, how to set it to strop the knife in between sharpenings.
Given the precision of the WSKTS blade grinding attachement angle setting, I'm not sure one can get the .5° precision you mention. The slackness of the belt even on the tightest position is enough to change the angle by more than this. So if you set it to the same angle as the WS, you're probably at a higher angle where the belt meets the APEX. Which is fine for deburring and stropping.