Hi everyone.
I've sharpening my knives last year, and I can't understand how people achieve 50-60 bess?
My knives has around 150 bess - this is my best result. Usually 160-170 bess.
I using a standard SG stone and a leather wheel - standard set. May be for this set 150 bess is maximum what I can get?
Totally, for usual use, this sharpness is completely sufficient, but how do people manage to achieve less than 100 bess?
Welcome to the forum, Jimon.
This video demonstrates how to get low BESS readings using standard Tormek equipment.
https://youtu.be/UckPmizllk0?si=jb6f3UwgOOq8JTFC
Please note at just after 1:15 the targeted bevel angle setting used on the applet, 10 degrees. (10 degrees per side). What bevel angle are you using when you sharpen?
The demonstrator in this video, our late member,"wootz" (Vadim Kriachuk of Knifegrinders of Australia) was a very dedicated sharpener and researcher. He developed a very refined technique as shown in his numerous you tube videos
Personally, I would not feel comfortable using a 10° bevel.
Ken
Thank you Ken,
I saw this video, and my results still around 150 bess. I guess the reason of this my angle on bevel - it is depends from knive, and usually is 13-15 degrees on bevel.
May by I will try to do 10 degrees for the experiment, and it will takes low pressure on BESS, but also want to achieve a higher sharpness without lowering the sharpening angle.
I'm not a BESS fan... but according to this post (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php/topic,4064.msg28221.html#msg28221), a 13-15 dps edge should be able to achieve a lower score.
Personally, I think BESS use is subjective, and it could just as easily be something in your testing technique, as it is in the sharpening. I'd look at other factors... like, for example, what you wrote earlier, in how it performs in actual use.
If it is in the sharpening, one thing you might try, instead of changing the sharpening angle, adjust the honing angle a bit higher, and see if makes a difference.
Quote from: Ken S on May 09, 2024, 02:43:46 PM...snip..
This video demonstrates how to get low BESS readings using standard Tormek equipment.
https://youtu.be/UckPmizllk0?si=jb6f3UwgOOq8JTFC
Please note at just after 1:15 the targeted bevel angle setting used on the applet, 10 degrees. (10 degrees per side). What bevel angle are you using when you sharpen?
...snip...
Ken
Quote from: cbwx34 on May 09, 2024, 05:19:25 PM...snip..
If it is in the sharpening, one thing you might try, instead of changing the sharpening angle, adjust the honing angle a bit higher, and see if makes a difference.
Couple things.
1) Honing angle that I saw in that video was 12º DPS rather than 10º. However, I do not think that what the angle is, is as relevant as the differential between grinding and honing angles, per what follows.
KG Video 12 DPS.JPG
2) I definitely agree with raising the honing angle for typical home use knives (which is all that I have), based on Vadim's other work regarding techniques for deburring steels of different hardness. While Vadim's video was intended to show what is possible with standard Tormek equipment, it appears to also reflect what I assume is the Tormek method of using the same ange for honing. The reference video appears to have been posted in 2019, which is AFTER the fourth edition of Vadim's deburring book where he discusses the benefits of using varying honing angles for different types of steels.
KG Deburring Angles 10-2018.JPG
It was demonstrative that he was able to achieve 75 BESS by using the same angle. I am curious what he could have demonstrated if he had used an angle more specific to the type of steel being sharpened Maybe he did without saying anything about it, so maybe it wasn't relevant, but it would have been informative for him to have mentioned it (unless he did at some point that I didn't see, as I didn't watch the video from start to finish).
Rick
Quote from: cbwx34 on May 09, 2024, 05:19:25 PMI'm not a BESS fan... but according to this post (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php/topic,4064.msg28221.html#msg28221), a 13-15 dps edge should be able to achieve a lower score.
I'm with you. There are a lot of factors that affect BESS score, including your testing technique.
Tests have shown that after a few minutes of use you typically end up at about 160 BESS so anything below this is probably acceptable. The SG-250 and leather wheel with the Tormek compound will never give you scores below 100. You need to go to the SJ-250, DE-250 and manually stropping or other diamond infused strop to get really good scores. Not to mention lower sharpening angles also lowers the BESS scores, but obviously the trade of with lower angles is more fragility.
Interestingly Bazz from Findon Sharpening has made a few videos showing him experimenting various techniques getting low scores where he uses the SJ and a manual strop charged with compound.
I agree. I guess it will be difficult to get lower BESS on this set (SG+honing weel)
I tried to play with the honing angles (probably on hands, not at fixed angle), but be honest, I didn't see a difference.
I think that the SG stone + leather wheel with Tormek paste giving just like my results.
And for lower BESS rates need to use felts, wool, diamond sprays, etc.
Thank you all for your comments - if anything in my process will change - I will let you know.
FYI
I have checked the factorys sharpening Spyderco Military 2 (CPM S110V) - 166, 175, 156 BESS in different parts of the blade.
Angle 16/18 dps.
Total angle is 34 degrees.
This factory's result looks as mine on Tormek standart kit))))
I am a longtime eliever in BESS. However, I also do the chopping for our home meals. I recommend you do the same. Working regularly at your cutting board will give you invaluable "from the trenches" feedback about your knives.
Ken
PS For some reason, Wootz changed the bevel angle setting in the middle of the video.
Just to add my pennies worth. I think Bess scores in the range of 150 (130/140/150/160/170) indicate that the burr has not been completely removed.
Whilst I gave up chasing sub 50 Bess a long time ago I still use the tester to indicate to me that the burr has been properly dealt with. I'm happy with anything under 120 and more than happy under 100.
So I think maybe you need to pay a little more attention not just to bevel angle but honing technique. The Tormek compound on leather wheel is good for most steels but harder steels really need diamonds and a very precise honing angle to completely remove the burr.
One important thing I took from studying Wootz book on sharpening is that the secret is not just achieving a true apex on a knife edge but how to remove the burr.
That is why his book is titled as it is.
Sir Amwell,
You raise some good points. Thepursuit of 50 and sub 50 BESS numbers strikes me as pursuing the Holy Grail. Lots of bragging rights with little added practical value. I am much more interested in an edge with staying power to cut the tomato.
I do believe BESS testing is useful in testing for residual burr, more for identifying the presence of remaining burr than for the numbers themselves.
I believe the best BESS technique is focused on accuracy rather than low numbers.
Ken
To me there is a world between 150 BESS and 100 BESS, and another one (maybe two) between 100 BESS and 50 BESS. I have never gotten to 50 BESS, but the standard SG/PA-70-on-leather setup gives me consistently 90-110 BESS with 15 dps, and 85-100 BESS with 12.5 dps.
150 BESS happens in a few situations that I can think of :
- Knives made out of junk (soft) steel. They can't be sharpened at an acute angle and an obtuse angle yields poor results anyway.
- Partially honed knives. There is a burr or some plastified metal left, so they have to be honed some more.
- Medium quality steel finished with chromium oxide or diamond spray on felt wheel. I could never figure for the life of me why it would degrade BESS readings, but it does, probably because of poor technique. The readings get back to 100ish if I hone them again on the leather wheel. This phenomenon doesn't happen on 63+ HRC steel.
So I wouldn't loose courage if I were you, I would try to hone a bit more than you usually do, and remember Vadim's results that low initial BESS is not a significant factor in edge retention. Steel quality and edge angle are, though. I also find that SG edges tend to retain their cutting ability longer than SJ edges.
Nick,
You make some good points. Like you, I believe one of the most useful functions of BESS testing in detecting minute residual burr which needs to be removed. I've known Mike Brubacher, the "B" in BESS, for many years through email. Mike is a really nice, helpful guy.
I have thought about purchasing a PT50A because of its 1 gram accuracy. So far, I have tabled that decision. My early version of the PT50B with 5 gram accuracy is more than enough for me. In fact, the 25 gram accuracy of the PT50C will detect residual burr problems. (For a shapener thinking of buying a BESS tester, I recommend at least the B model.)
Ken
I think it's quite possible to get a 15 dps edge to 100 BESS or lower using the SG wheel and leather wheel with PA-70.
Best to keep it simple. We know there are two components to sharpening:
1) Apex the edge. Can you feel a burr all long the edge after your final pass on one side, and then on the other side? If so, the SG wheel has done its job.
2) Remove the burr. This is the hard part when it comes to getting very low BESS scores. You can get sub-optimal results if you:
a. Don't remove all of the burr, which can happen if you are honing at too low an angle, or if you don't hone enough.
b. Round the apex by honing at too high of an angle, or apply too much pressure when honing.
Freehand honing on the leather wheel is definitely something that takes some practice and muscle memory to perfect. You can work around that by using a front vertical base to hone with a jig, or keep practicing!
I would suggest marking the edge before you start honing so you have a better idea where the bevel is hitting. It's also helpful to use some kind of magnification to give you a better idea what's happening.
Lastly, I think it helps to minimize the burr as much as possible before you go to the leather wheel. One way to do that is to do a couple very quick, very light alternating passes on the sharpening stone.
Wootz's method generally involved honing at higher angles before finishing at the sharpening angle, depending on the steel involved.
Here's how I do it and my thoughts.
First, the knife must be high quality. No point trying to achieve a 100 BESS with a Wiltshire knife. You'll need VG-10 or better. Global knives will get you there. My best BESS was a 52 on this (https://www.ikea.com/au/en/p/briljera-cooks-knife-30257579/) brand new IKEA (of all things) VG-10 knife. I did have a video on the event before my original channel was taken down.
I can achieve a near 100 (or better) BESS on the standard SG wheel but I grade it using diamond plates. It's important to start rough to achieve a fresh apex so I start by dressing the SG with an 80 grit diamond plate. Then once I achieve a strong and definite burr I re-dress the wheel with a 32 grit diamond plate making sure to settle all the grain. I check with my thumb to make sure I don't feel any raised grains. Then I grind away as usual making sure I do my best work. A super acute angle isn't necessary. I achieved the 52 at 15 degrees per side as set with a (probably worn out) WM-200 so it was probably even a bit higher. I'm guessing 32 degrees total. I grind until I'm happy the entire bevel has been smoothes so probably at least 4-10 passes per side. No less than 4.
I don't use the Tormek paste though (and haven't for years). I do all my honing with green Chrome Oxide these days. I was frustrated for a long time until I realised I was pressing too hard and honing too much. I use a light touch at an increased angle than the bevel. I do all honing by hand. I first lay the knife down until it grips the wheel (signifying that I'm on the bevel) then raise it slightly so I'm only honing the apex.
I hone and check for burr by running the blade against my fingernail. I check early so I can still feel a bit of catching and only stop after all catching is gone but NO MORE! I used to continue on the strop which is made of super thin Kangaroo body leather on a wooden block but these days I hardly use the hard strop. If I can achieve a nice glide on my fingernail I stop and test on a Tally-Ho cigarette paper. If I can achieve "glidage" through the paper I know I'm at or close to 100-125.
Using this method, a super thin japanese (or chinese) knife made from good steel (VG-10 or equivalent) such as a global will achieve a very low BESS score. I think the biggest factor is not to over hone.
Hope that helps.
Note: I haven't achieved a better score or result using the SJ wheel than I've been able to achieve on a standard SG wheel graded to 960 using the Dr Vadim diamond plate method (which has been a real game changer for me). I'm a fan of the foam backed chinese 320 grit diamond plates.
Quote from: iSharpen on June 06, 2024, 09:37:30 PMI did have a video on the event before my original channel was taken down.
That has to be annoying. Why was it taken down. I thought you had gone dark and only just recently found you again.
Really interesting. I have to admit that when I started I was more than a little influenced by your techniques.
Quote from: iSharpen on June 06, 2024, 09:37:30 PMHere's how I do it and my thoughts.
Thanks for the detailed explanation. 👍
I am curious, in your case as someone who sharpens at scale, what are you thoughts on diamond or CBN wheels? Do you get better or more consistent results on those? Do you prefer to use the SG instead?
You should also be aware that the BESS score can be influenced by testing technique. I never bothered to get one of the machines but instead used Vadim's equivalency testing methods to see where my edge is.
We also need to be aware that chasing extremely sharp edges is only part of the battle. At some point you need to actually use the knife in real world situations. What I found is that maintaining a useable edge is key to long term satisfaction. I keep thermal receipts handy to test my knives to see if they need some work. This is equivalent to about 300 BESS which is where many knives are new out of the box. The people I sharpen for are happy. I do have a spare leather wheel that has only been used with 1µ diamond spray. This yields an exceptionally sharp edge.
This is the way I get below 100 BESS and I do it consistently. I have the T4. I only use the stock wheel. Only graded to 250 grit using a diamond plate after leveling the wheel. I set the angle to 15°.
I sharpen one side until I detect a burr. Then sharpen the other side until I detect a burr.
Then alternate until I cannot feel a burr. Then I hone by hand five passes on each side. Then test. If I'm not below 100, I repeat the honing. I usually settle for around 85 BESS.
I buy cheap knives to sharpen and give away. I buy a set of 4 knives off Amazon for less than $9. My favorite knife is Craftkitchen from Walmart for less than $6.
I alternate the honing passes too.
Quote from: DT on June 18, 2024, 03:44:01 AMThis is the way I get below 100 BESS and I do it consistently. I have the T4. I only use the stock wheel. Only graded to 250 grit using a diamond plate after leveling the wheel. I set the angle to 15°.
I sharpen one side until I detect a burr. Then sharpen the other side until I detect a burr.
Then alternate until I cannot feel a burr. Then I hone by hand five passes on each side. Then test. If I'm not below 100, I repeat the honing. I usually settle for around 85 BESS.
...
Quote from: DT on June 18, 2024, 04:02:15 AMI alternate the honing passes too.
I think you're spot on... it's often overlooked that it's not what a person uses, it's how you use it.
You are probably being facetious. My method defiled logic, but I was serious.
Here are the BESS scores for the last three CraftKitchen knives I have sharpened. It takes about 3 passes on the first side to raise a burr. I use very light pressure.
New 220
Sharpened 160
Honed 1st 105
Honed 2nd 115
Honed 3rd 85
New 160
Sharpened 120
Honed 85
New 310
Sharpened 145
Honed 75
3D your method seems similar to mine. Go to Walmart. Buy a CraftKitchen knife for $6. Only use the rough grit. Only use very light pressure sharpening and honing. Use 15 degrees per side. Please let me know what your BESS scores were New, Sharpened and Honed.
Thanks.
Honing by hand is a crap shoot for me so I bought the 123. Keep in mind that I have the T4. The 123 works good with the sharpening wheel but not the honing wheel. The threaded rod gets in the way when using regular size paring knives. The 123 worked on the honing wheel when I tried a 2 inch wide chef knife.
The bigger machines are wider and the threaded rod doesn't present this problem for them.
Quote from: DT on June 19, 2024, 06:19:47 PM...snip... The threaded rod gets in the way when using regular size paring knives. ...snip...
Was that with or without the MB-102 or an FVB? I've heard of that without these, but I thought using either solved that conflict.
I was using the MB-102.
I've thought about buying an 8 leather wheel and using it on the grinding side. The problem is ... I can't find one with a 12mm hole. A 1/2 inch hole is not much difference. That would probably work. Or a few wraps of tape might work if needed.
I cut up some 1/2 pvc to use when the wheel is removed and it's not much different from the 12mm piece that came with the machine.
If I had it to do over with I would buy the T8.
Pay me now or pay me later.
Quote from: DT on June 19, 2024, 05:55:57 PMYou are probably being facetious. My method defiled logic, but I was serious.
...
If you're referring to my post... not at all. I think your process is great (why I said "spot on"). Too often I read posts where users go thru numerous steps trying to get a knife sharp or reach a certain BESS score. How you sharpen is similar to what I do.
Quote from: DT on June 19, 2024, 06:19:47 PM...
The 123 works good with the sharpening wheel but not the honing wheel. The threaded rod gets in the way when using regular size paring knives. The 123 worked on the honing wheel when I tried a 2 inch wide chef knife.
...
Can you post a pic? The only interference I see is with a very short "Protrusion" distance (which I'm guessing what a paring knife emulates) and low angle (around 9 deg.), the KS-123 can hit one of the locking knobs. I'm not seeing where it would hit one of the rods.
I have pictures that I can post if someone can tell me how to post using an iPad.
The problem occurs when the 123 is mounted on the bar and is close enough to the honing wheel for the 3 legs to be able to touch the top of the wheel. In this position, the threaded rod will not let the 3 legs touch the top of the wheel as you adjust the angle. However, this is not a problem if the knife is wide enough and its not a problem when using the grinding wheel.
Buy a CraftKitchen knife. Grade your wheel to course and dont change the grit. Post your new, sharpened and honed results. I'm curious how my method works for others.
Quote from: DT on June 20, 2024, 12:59:45 AMI have pictures that I can post if someone can tell me how to post using an iPad.
The problem occurs when the 123 is mounted on the bar and is close enough to the honing wheel for the 3 legs to be able to touch the top of the wheel. In this position, the threaded rod will not let the 3 legs touch the top of the wheel as you adjust the angle. However, this is not a problem if the knife is wide enough and its not a problem when using the grinding wheel.
Buy a CraftKitchen knife. Grade your wheel to course and dont change the grit. Post your new, sharpened and honed results. I'm curious how my method works for others.
Never mind, I figured out what you were seeing. (I was using a different FVB before not the MB-102). You're right, with the MB-102 it does hit the threaded rod. I can squeeze it in (barely), but I didn't check to see if that would affect the accuracy. I'm thinking a 2nd washer might move the honing wheel out enough to provide the clearance needed? Might give that a try... doesn't look like it would take much.
Moving the wheel is a great idea. I will take a quick look now and if it looks feasible, I will try it tomorrow. I think I have everything I need.
When I moved the honing wheel enough for everything to work, the end of the shaft was flush.
I can remove the grinding wheel and move the shaft enough to get the nut on the honing wheel end but I think doing that is going to create another problem. I'll get back on it tomorrow and let you know how I goes.
Quote from: DT on June 19, 2024, 07:32:49 PMI've thought about buying an 8 leather wheel and using it on the grinding side. The problem is ... I can't find one with a 12mm hole.
https://schleifjunkies.de/en/product/leather-wheel-t4-200x35mm-smooth-side-out-side/
I ordered the leather wheel. $108. I received a fraud alert within minutes of placing the order. So far the only confirmation has been from PayPal.
Quote from: DT on June 20, 2024, 04:39:36 AMWhen I moved the honing wheel enough for everything to work, the end of the shaft was flush.
I can remove the grinding wheel and move the shaft enough to get the nut on the honing wheel end but I think doing that is going to create another problem. I'll get back on it tomorrow and let you know how I goes.
Yeah, I tried this morning. The only place I could put a washer was between the drive wheel and honing wheel. The design isn't very conducive to my idea. :-[
It did help a little, and while it's still a "snug" fit for the KS jig, I checked it against a calculator and it didn't appear to affect the accuracy.
Quote from: DT on June 20, 2024, 12:25:35 PMI ordered the leather wheel. $108. I received a fraud alert within minutes of placing the order. So far the only confirmation has been from PayPal.
Hanns (the Schleifjunkies owner) is pretty responsive on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/HannsPlag/), you might try him there if you don't get a response to your order.
The bank called me later. I'm going to the in a few minutes.
My past experiences with both Slipakniven and Schleifjunkies have been positive. I would be very surprised if there is any actual fraud.
Please keep us updated.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on June 20, 2024, 05:54:51 PMMy past experiences with both Slipakniven and Schleifjunkies have been positive. I would be very surprised if there is any actual fraud.
Please keep us updated.
Ken
Same here. I've ordered from Schleifjunkies several times and never had a problem. I think these bank fraud alerts are now done using some kind of AI algorithm. If the algorithm thinks you've made a purchase that seems unusual for you, it will throw up a flag. That's happened to me several times with the Apple card. I just have to confirm that I did in fact make that [weird] purchase.
You are right. The bank was clueless. They told me that my PayPal payment went through.
I'm anxious to try this honing wheel. As you can see from my BESS scores, honing is a very important step in the sharpening process.
Quote from: DT on June 20, 2024, 06:52:25 PM...honing is a very important step in the sharpening process.
Tormek has a class on it...
... to quote them "Honing is where the magic happens". :)
I watched that video a while back. I don't get much out of videos since I have a serious hearing disorder.
I always have the sound muted. I cannot understand what they say.
I sharpened another new CraftKitchen knife today. I will post the numbers tomorrow.
Tomorrow, I plan on using the TT-50 then sharpening another knife.
The sharpener that I was using before I bought the T4 was the Work Sharp Profesional Precision Adjust. It had 6 plates plus a leather plate. I tried going by the book and using all of them. Sharpening a knife on that machine took a lot of time and work. I never got good with that sharpener.
After I bought the T4 I tried grading the stone and sharpening with two grits. I never liked grading the grinding wheel. I thought about buying more wheels but never did.
Over time I developed my method of using just the course grit.
Quote from: DT on June 21, 2024, 05:25:12 AM...
I don't get much out of videos since I have a serious hearing disorder.
...
You may already be aware of this, but you can turn on the subtitles in the settings (gear symbol) and reduce the speed.
Thanks Dutchman, I didn't know that. Captions are usually too fast and the font too small. I was able to change both to my liking.
I'm 78 and not and not nearly as quick as I once was.
Thanks again. This is going to be a tremendous help.
I received a delivery date, just now, of June 27 for the 8 inch leather wheel. I'll let everyone know how well it works.
Hi DT,
I ordered a 200mm leather wheel from Shleifjunkies and have been using it for knives ever since. I am very happy with it.
I mounted it on another machine so that I dont have to remove any wheels and it works perfectly.
Details with photos on this thread here if you are interested:
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?msg=38933
Danny
Dan, thanks for the pictures. The link went straight to them.
I plan on swapping the leather wheel out with the grinding wheel. I don't think it will too much trouble.
I sharpened two more CraftKitchen knives today. I will share the numbers:
CraftKitchen (1st knife)
New 205
Sharpened 110
Honed 1st set 100
Honed 2nd set 70
It took 4 passes to get the first burr.
It took 5 passed to get the second burr.
CraftKitchen (2nd knife)
I sharpened this knife after using the TT-50 to level the wheel.
New 235
Sharpened 140
Honed 1st set 110
Honed 2nd set 100
I added compound before the 3rd set.
Honed 3rd set 95
Honed 4th set 85
Honed 5th set 75
It took 1 pass to get the first burr.
It took 2 passes to get the second burr.
After I get a burr on both sides, I remove as much of the burr as I can by making very light and quick additional passes on the grinding wheel.
I made 8 of these passes on each side. Alternating of course.
On the 5th pass the BESS score was 195.
On the 6th pass the BESS score was 255.
On the 8th pass the BESS score was 140.
Quote from: DT on June 21, 2024, 03:20:35 PM...
I'm 78 and not and not nearly as quick as I once was.
...
Yes, I know that, I'm 84 and experience it every day ;)
Quote from: DT on June 21, 2024, 03:20:35 PM... and not and not nearly as...
... and repeating yourself... ;)
I'm forgetful too. 🤭
Quote from: Dutchman on June 22, 2024, 11:29:47 AMQuote from: DT on June 21, 2024, 03:20:35 PM...
I'm 78 and not and not nearly as quick as I once was.
...
Yes, I know that, I'm 84 and experience it every day ;)
As one of my favorite Star Wars characters once put it : "I may not be as young as I once was, but I'm older."
I often read about the unreliability of the BESS method. I want to write something about that.
In my previous work, I had to make or interpret many meteorological temperature measurements for the construction industry.
Comparing these temperatures is only possible if everyone uses the same measurement protocol. The most important ones for outdoor temperatures were:
- Measuring on a 10 x 10 meter lawn.
- The (calibrated) thermometer should be in a white ventilated hut, 1.5 m above the lawn and the door of the hut should face north.
Only then can you compare measurements with directly each other.
What meteorologists have done is to apply this measurement method worldwide as much as possible.
What I see with grinders in YT videos is to show that the BESS method is flawed because the results are always different. That is meaningless. So can meteorologists with their temperature measurements.
If you use the BESS method only for yourself, then how only to apply and interpret your own measurement protocol properly.
If you want to compare with others, you do need to know if "the others" are measuring in the same way. In fact, you have to indicate that in the presentation of your measurement results.
I agree, the BESS tester results can be as good or as bad as a person wants to make it. The best technique, for me, is honestly.
The leather wheel that I ordered from Germany came yesterday. I'll let you know how I like it.
I use the BESS tester and I also cut paper. I cut thin paper.
I lay the knife in my open palm and cut horizontally not vertical.
I've cut paper like this enough that I can pretty much tell when a knife is sub 100 BESS.
Cutting paper is less hassle than using the BESS tester and if the blade has a nick, cutting thin paper will catch on the nick where the BESS tester could miss the nick.
I have been an occasional BESS user for many years. In fact, my oldest BESS tester, the model KN-100, predates the current models where the knife is lowered by using the hands. With the KN-100, the knife is held by the tester and pressure is applied by adding BBs to a container attached to the shaft above the knife. Anyone who finds using a current BESS tester to be "a hassle" would certainly find this older model to be a major hassle. However, it is also extremely accurate and eliminates human error.
I had not studied the edgeonup.com videos in quite a while. Studying them again made me realize that those who criticize BESS testing are probably basing that criticism on outdated information.
A BESS tester is not inexpensive. Anyone willing to invest in one would, in my opinion, be well advised to study the instructional videos on edgeonup.com. in order to get full benefit from their machine. The edgeonup team, like Tormek, are continually innovating.
Ken
Quote from: WimSpi on June 27, 2024, 10:18:07 AMIf you use the BESS method only for yourself, then how only to apply and interpret your own measurement protocol properly.
If you look at standard tests then they are repeatable objective and remove any possibility of human error. The BESS tester is advertised as an "industrial" tester, which is false advertising. It is not repeatable, objective and certainly does not comply with the ISO standard ISO 8442-5:2004.
Having said that, the BESS testers are a useful indicator of approximate sharpness for your own satisfaction.
IMO the BESS tester is incredibly useful for judging your own results and not necessarily anyone else's.
I would like to see 5 BESS owners test the same knife without knowing the others results until the test was over.
Concerning the leather wheel that I ordered from Germany: I loaded it down with olive oil. That is all I have put on it. I have only used the jig with it and have had good results. After I am confident honing with a jig, I want to compare honing with a jig to freehand honing. I prefer freehand honing and I get good results. The problem I have with freehand honing is I don't know what angle I hold the knife. I read where people post that they hone at the same angle they sharpen or one or two degrees different. I get good results hand honing but would I get better results with control over the angle? Maybe, now that I can control the angle by using a jig, I will find out.
I think honing with a jig gives you a consistent angle over the entire blade. It also allows you to do 1.5° over the sharpening angle with regular steels. I think well practiced users can achieve good results handheld but I do not think it is consistently possible to get the angles needed for exceptional results.
In my opinion the BESS tester is repeatable and objective ... if you follow the instructions. That makes it a very useful tool for improving one's sharpening. As far as comparing results with others goes, it's only useful if person doing the testing knows how to use the machine properly, and if you trust the other person to do so.
3D, I agree with you 100%.
I'm also a big fan of cutting thin paper. When the blade will slice thin paper with the knife lying in the palm of my hand, I know that I can expect a good BESS score.
Cutting thin paper slowly can also detect any nicks in the blade.
I'm a fan of cutting meat and vegetables with my knifes, cutting cardboard or whittling wood and many other things.
The sharpness after some time of usage is more important to me than the initial sharpness.
I understood that many sharpeners are convinced that a good initial bess reading is a prerequisite for a good edge retention.
I'm not convinced, however, I cannot proof the opposite. Nothing is impossible.
I agree, edge retention is very important.
It's not often you see BESS results from 24 hours after initial sharpening. Rarely will your sub-100 BESS knife remain that way the next day, even without use.
Quote from: Crabnbass on July 10, 2024, 04:39:37 AMI agree, edge retention is very important.
It's not often you see BESS results from 24 hours after initial sharpening. Rarely will your sub-100 BESS knife remain that way the next day, even without use.
Absolutely true! Even the slightest amount of oxidation, even on very stainless steels, will raise BESS scores over 100. That said, however, it's very easy to bring the scores back down with light stropping, or even cutting stuff that isn't super abrasive. I think that's why Wootz found improvement in his BESS scores when testing cutting boards, after the first couple of cuts.
So ... how sharp is sharp enough?
Quote from: DT on July 10, 2024, 04:49:50 PMSo ... how sharp is sharp enough?
The answer is obviously ... depends. ;)
My opinion has changed over time. Used to be, I wasn't happy unless I could get a knife to 75 BESS or lower. Nowadays I'm satisfied if it's under 100 after sharpening. I almost always do a 15 dps edge, and I can maintain edges in the 100-120 range with stropping for quite a long time before I need to resharpen. If I can't get it back to 120ish, then it's time for a fresh edge.
But I think most of us have standards that are wildly different from the general public.
"Under 100 BESS" what does that mean? I think we must determine whether the significance is the number itself or what it signifies. One of my three BESS testers is an older model of the PB-50C. With its accuracy of 25g, it is the bottom of the BESS totem pole. Most of us would probably turn up our noses at it. However, if we are not concerned with an actual number, it can serve as a "go-no go" indicator of the existance of remaining burr. (Full disclosure; my older PB-50B is my go to tester and the tester Edge on Up recommends for most users.)
I believe Wootz of Knifegrinders had his priorities straight in his video where he discussed how many would be content with a BESS in the 130 range, whereas he knew that that test indicated residual burr which would shorten the duration of sharpness.
I do not doubt that many of you are aware of this. My point is, for the benefit of our users newer to BESS, I believe it is important to state the goal is complete burr removal. The actual BESS number is a byproduct of this, not the objective itself.
Ken
Well put Ken. Couldn't agree more.
Thanks, Sir A.
Ken
And for those who can't/won't spend that much on BESS hardware, a simpler approach with a cheap microscope and nylon wire (fishing line) can be a good burr detector : mark a point along the edge with a sharpie, set the wire down on a board, align the wire and the sharpie mark, cut the wire using a downward-only (not rocking) movement, ideally not all the way through the wire, and check the spot under the microscope. A dent in the blade will be an excellent indicator of a burr remaining along the apex.
All for under 20 bucks. Easily made even better with a support that will hold the wire taunt an inch above the board while cutting.
Quote from: tgbto on July 12, 2024, 08:40:20 AMAnd for those who can't/won't spend that much on BESS hardware, a simpler approach with a cheap microscope and nylon wire (fishing line) can be a good burr detector : mark a point along the edge with a sharpie, set the wire down on a board, align the wire and the sharpie mark, cut the wire using a downward-only (not rocking) movement, ideally not all the way through the wire, and check the spot under the microscope. A dent in the blade will be an excellent indicator of a burr remaining along the apex.
All for under 20 bucks. Easily made even better with a support that will hold the wire taunt an inch above the board while cutting, done in like 5 minutes with a chisel and a 2x2x2 wood block.
Quote from: tgbto on July 12, 2024, 08:40:20 AMAnd for those who can't/won't spend that much on BESS hardware, a simpler approach with a cheap microscope and nylon wire (fishing line) can be a good burr detector : mark a point along the edge with a sharpie, set the wire down on a board, align the wire and the sharpie mark, cut the wire using a downward-only (not rocking) movement, ideally not all the way through the wire, and check the spot under the microscope. A dent in the blade will be an excellent indicator of a burr remaining along the apex.
All for under 20 bucks. Easily made even better with a support that will hold the wire taunt an inch above the board while cutting.
Like the BESS tester this only gives you a sense of a burr for one spot. I find that slowly cutting a thermal receipt along the entire blade you can feel if there is a burr. I hold the handle with thumb and a finger for sensitivity. I have not had one customer that has not commented later on how sharp their knives were.
I couldn't agree more. I'm a big fan of cutting paper. I restored a fixed blade hunting knife for a friend yesterday. The final BESS score was 135. I try for 75-95.
As I hone a knife, I slice thermal paper to check sharpness before I ever check it with the BESS tester. I just lay the knife in the palm of my hand.
I thought the blade was slicing paper a little better than usual. When I checked it, the BESS score was 135. I was disappointed that the score wasn't sub 100 but I left it at that. I believe the thin paper over the BESS tester. The tester is checking only one tiny place and it is so easy for me to mess up the test.
When slowly cutting thin paper with the blade lying on my palm, the blade will stop on every nick and will not slice paper to my satisfaction until it is crazy sharp.
I can usually tell from slicing paper (I use the Uline catalogue) what the BESS score is going to be, give or take 10-15 grams. Whittling hair is another good analogue for the BESS tester. If you can't whittle a hair (or cause it to split on contact), you've probably got a BESS reading over 135. If you can whittle a hair, but you have to mess around with it for a while to get it, you're likely in the 110-135 range. If you can do it on the first attempt, and pretty much anywhere on the edge, you're below 100.
As far as the BESS tester only reading a tiny fraction of the edge goes, I don't find that to be a problem. My edges are generally consistent from tip to heel after sharpening. If I get a reading of 100g in one spot, I'm going to get the same reading +/- 5g anywhere else on the blade.