(December 5th, click on the link for your local time)
Just wanted to beat Ken :)
You won, thanks, CB.
Ken
Let me guess their answer ... "How long is a piece of string" ;)
I am surprised by the reluctance to have a second Tormek, especially when the second machine could be a more specialized model. I believe two factors influence this heavily.
1) the perceived cost
2) the belief (often encouraged by Tormek) that a Tormek can sharpen every edge in the house
Granted, the investment in a Tormek can be considerable. However, let's look at this in context. The cost of cutlery in a well equipped kitchen can easily exceed the cost of a Tormek. In the workshop, consider the cost of Starrett tools, Lie-Nielsen or Veritas planes or chisels, and power tools. Top quality bench stones can be quite expensive, as can a set of several diamond or CBN wheels.
A T8 and a T2 combine the top of the Tormek line with a very efficient knife sharpening machine. Not every Tormek owner could justify the expense of a second Tormek. Some could, especially those who are heavily into sharpening knives.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on December 05, 2023, 01:46:55 PMI am surprised by the reluctance to have a second Tormek
By the number of professional setups that do have multiple Tormek machines it seems to me quite common. If you are gaining income by your sharpening, directly or indirectly then multiple machines may very well be a worthwhile investment.
For an armature like me there is not a lot of point.
Having said that I would love a T1 for the kitchen. The little woman her disability support loves cooking and spends a lot of her spare time in the kitchen and we have discussed the T1. It would keep her knives really sharp. Of course we have to wait until it is released in Australia.
John,
Why don't you email info@tormek.se (attn: Sebastien). He is now Tormek's worldwide Director of Sales. Previously he was a country Sales Manager. As I recall, his area included Australia. Ask him which dealers can ship to Australia. The T1 is part of Tormek Culinary, so this may prove a dead end; however, it would be worth an email.
Ken
I feel this Class is a major and long overdue breakthrough in Tormek's acceptance of its smaller diameter machines.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on December 05, 2023, 01:46:55 PMA T8 and a T2 combine the top of the Tormek line with a very efficient knife sharpening machine. Not every Tormek owner could justify the expense of a second Tormek. Some could, especially those who are heavily into sharpening knives.
I don't really agree here. I don't see the point in adding a T-2 to a T-8 : they won't grind the blade the same way, which will have a substantial impact in the tip area. The intended audience is quite different : sharpeners on one side, cooks who don't care much for looks on the other. I'm not sure I can see the added value of having the T-2 over, say, a T-8 custom if you're "heavily into knives". If real estate is an issue, then no T-2 at all.
I watched the broadcast live. I loved the personas they walked through in the beginning and the simple, decisive answers for each. Especially in this holiday season, it was perfect a perfect summary for people looking for an excellent gift for a loved one.
According to my notes:
T-4: gardener, camping/hunting/fishing, knife collector, spoon carver, DIY/new homeowner
T-8: professionals, and those who can't make up their mind between the T-8 and the T-4 ;D
T-8 Custom: woodturners, or people buying a second machine
T-2: pro kitchen folks
T-1: to make the other dads jealous (easily my favorite persona!)
My father is a retired chef but he still does private parties from time to time. I'm considering buying him a T-1 for Christmas. Last time he visited he asked where I got my leather strop, so he must be keeping his knives sharp still. And like most dads he loves gadgets!
I really appreciated the second half as well. I was able to ask my specific question about carving tools vs turning tools. I think my question was answered, though I might have asked another follow up. Overall this video did help me make my final decision.
Carly,
Your dad seems the ideal match for a T1. Tormek is finally realizing that not everyone fits the mold of needing/wanting the heavy duty, do everything, flagshop T8. Freed from that design constraint, Tormek has designed more specialized model to more closely fit individual needs.
If, by chance, you have not seen the online classes with Stig and Samuel presenting the T1, I highly recommend them to you. Both Stig and Samual primarily use the composite wheel of the T1. Unlike sharpening services which routinely have to deal with abused and neglected knives, the knives they maintain are almost always just off sharp. An experienced chef like your dad would appreciate having his knives in tip top condition. This cook/chef with high expectations is the T1 persona.
I think a T1 would make an outstanding Christmas gift for him.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on December 05, 2023, 01:46:55 PMA T8 and a T2 combine the top of the Tormek line with a very efficient knife sharpening machine. Not every Tormek owner could justify the expense of a second Tormek. Some could, especially those who are heavily into sharpening knives.
Ken
I could totally see this. I would buy a T-2 plus the coarse wheel for a mobile knife sharpening business. No water, no honing paste, no extra jigs, and it's a lot lighter. I'd keep it packed in my car ready to sharpen someone's knives at a moment's notice. Honestly, it would be more convenient than packing my traditional stones to my sister's house to sharpen her knives.
Quote from: Ken S on December 08, 2023, 10:34:19 AMCarly,
Your dad seems the ideal match for a T1. Tormek is finally realizing that not everyone fits the mold of needing/wanting the heavy duty, do everything, flagshop T8. Freed from that design constraint, Tormek has designed more specialized model to more closely fit individual needs.
If, by chance, you have not seen the online classes with Stig and Samuel presenting the T1, I highly recommend them to you. Both Stig and Samual primarily use the composite wheel of the T1. Unlike sharpening services which routinely have to deal with abused and neglected knives, the knives they maintain are almost always just off sharp. An experienced chef like your dad would appreciate having his knives in tip top condition. This cook/chef with high expectations is the T1 persona.
I think a T1 would make an outstanding Christmas gift for him.
Ken
I think I did see that one. I imagine that if you have a T-1 your knives would never get really dull. I recommended it to a friend of mine as a Christmas gift for her husband as well.
Quote from: Carly on December 08, 2023, 08:20:03 PMI could totally see this. I would buy a T-2 plus the coarse wheel for a mobile knife sharpening business. No water, no honing paste, no extra jigs, and it's a lot lighter. I'd keep it packed in my car ready to sharpen someone's knives at a moment's notice. Honestly, it would be more convenient than packing my traditional stones to my sister's house to sharpen her knives.
That's not what Tormek recommends, plus you'll have to turn down any request for anything other than a standard knife. Probably with a notice that the result will be sharp but might not be that good looking... The ability to mix pivoting with lifting is what allows to choose the width of the bevel along the length of the edge. A busy cook won't care, but people who care to take their knives to a sharpener rather than give them a quick trizor XV treatment will most likely care.
Quote from: tgbto on December 11, 2023, 08:51:35 AMQuote from: Carly on December 08, 2023, 08:20:03 PMI could totally see this. I would buy a T-2 plus the coarse wheel for a mobile knife sharpening business. No water, no honing paste, no extra jigs, and it's a lot lighter. I'd keep it packed in my car ready to sharpen someone's knives at a moment's notice. Honestly, it would be more convenient than packing my traditional stones to my sister's house to sharpen her knives.
That's not what Tormek recommends, plus you'll have to turn down any request for anything other than a standard knife. Probably with a notice that the result will be sharp but might not be that good looking... The ability to mix pivoting with lifting is what allows to choose the width of the bevel along the length of the edge. A busy cook won't care, but people who care to take their knives to a sharpener rather than give them a quick trizor XV treatment will most likely care.
Sure. But most people just want their kitchen knife to no longer be dull. No need to make it more complicated than that.
"That's not what Tormek recommends, plus you'll have to turn down any request for anything other than a standard knife. Probably with a notice that the result will be sharp but might not be that good looking... The ability to mix pivoting with lifting is what allows to choose the width of the bevel along the length of the edge. A busy cook won't care, but people who care to take their knives to a sharpener rather than give them a quick trizor XV treatment will most likely care."
I must disagree. Although I see where you are coming from, I feel some of your information is outdated or not really applicable. Both the T2and T1 are designed to sharpen the standard kitchen knives. These are the knives that most home cooks and restaurants use. All of my home kitchen knives, which I believe are typical, fall into this category. The T2 can also sharpen several kitchen accessories, as shown in the linked video. The T8 can not sharpen these.
By "the result will not be that good looking" do you mean an uneven bevel or will have scratches? Starting at 9:00 on the video, Johan demonstrates the knife he sharpened has an even bevel.Yes, it is a different technique, notusing tilt; however, it achieves the same even bevels.
Tormek solved the scratching issue in two ways. With the original angle guide, using the provided post it notes would eliminate scratches. The angle setter was later redesigned to eliminate scratching without having to use the post it notes.
The redesigned angle setter is also what is used with the T1.
Here is the link to the T2 online class:
https://www.youtube.com/live/dCe3bKc5Ym8?si=meyDYKfB14Lv9OWG
I believe the last online class shows a change in Tormek marketing away from almost exclusively T8 to the entire product line. I do not believe that, especially after extensive testing, Tormek would sell a product which would not meet its high quality standards.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on December 11, 2023, 11:36:41 PMAlthough I see where you are coming from, I feel some of your information is outdated or not really applicable.
Read today, on Tormek's Website :
QuoteTormek has developed a sharpening machine specifically designed for sharpening chef's knives – on site in the restaurant kitchen.
So it seems that the recommended use case for the T-2, as @Carly mentioned in their initial post is indeed chefs who want a quick, sharp result on site. It doesn't sound *that* outdated.
Quote from: Ken S on December 11, 2023, 11:36:41 PMThe T2 can also sharpen several kitchen accessories, as shown in the linked video. The T8 can not sharpen these.
Yes, mostly because there is no Tormek-made "platform jig" suitable for knives for the T-8, but as proven on this very forum, it would solve the S-knife issue. And also no rotary cutter jig for the T-8, but again more of a marketing choice than an actual technical issue.
Quote from: Ken S on December 11, 2023, 11:36:41 PMBy "the result will not be that good looking" do you mean an uneven bevel or will have scratches? Starting at 9:00 on the video, Johan demonstrates the knife he sharpened has an even bevel.Yes, it is a different technique, notusing tilt; however, it achieves the same even bevels.
I mean uneven bevels. The T-2 is a constant angle sharpener. We know full well that keeping a constant angle will usually (ie on most kitchen knives) result in a bevel that widens at the tip. Granted, there is no sharpness issue (it might even improve it a bit), it is just about looks. But it is the very reason why Tormek recommends to lift, not pivot. You can't have it both ways, geometry is kinda stubborn.
To be crystal clear, if you take a chef knife with an even-looking bevel and sharpen it on the T-2 using the sharpie trick in the middle of the blade, you will most likely witness that in the tip area you only remove sharpie on the shoulders, not all the way to the apex.
Some knives, geometry allowing, will be fine that way, some might even get a narrower bevel, if the spine is curving down insted of the edge curving up, while the tip area of the blade gets quite thin. But you don't control
that with the T-2, the "Advanced sharpening technique" video intro with all the edge geometries is precisely about all this.
Quote from: Ken S on December 11, 2023, 11:36:41 PMI do not believe that, especially after extensive testing, Tormek would sell a product which would not meet its high quality standards.
I don't think I ever implied otherwise, I just find it odd that several topics tend to promote the T-2 as a good complement to a T-8 for a sharpening business, and try to counter geometrical arguments with "Tormek sells good products". As examplified here (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php/topic,5395.0.html).
Nick,
Tormek must fulfill the expectations of many users. The needs of the particular high end user which you represent are most certainly a vital part of the Tormek market. This group requires a machine not only capable of producing very sharp edges, but also very versatile and capable of producing very highly esthetic edges. I believe this forum has demonstrated the importance of this group in raising the level of sharpening for all Tormek users.
However, this group is not the only group of Tormek users. Another equally important group, perhaps best exemplified by the Swedish Culinary Team, is equally demanding of sharpness, but requires that sharpness in the demanding constraints of a fast paced restaurant environment . While these dedicated professionals would certainly not abuse their knives, knife sharpness is only a necessary part of very high end cooking. They do not have time to worry about high end sharpening concerns beyond sharpness and caring for their expensive knives. They certainly do not care about sharpening chisels or drill bits.
Most home users fall near this category. While they want sharp edges and do not want to abuse their knives, most would prefer not to make the investment of learning time, space, or money in professional level equipment like a T8, especially if their knives are solid, but economical. For those in this group who also want to sharpen other tools, a T4 or T8 is the logical choice, or the T8 if they aspire to start a side business. For those who desire only knives, I think either a T2 or T1 is a logical option.
For a long term investment like a Tormek, I have never believed that saving a relatively few dollars should be a deciding factor. I do believe that matching the machine to the owner's needs and expectations should be the deciding factor.
Ken
Ken,
I am not sure what you are replying to. The sentence that prompted my initial comment which you disagreed with was :
QuoteI would buy a T-2 plus the coarse wheel for a mobile knife sharpening business.
If a professional sharpener is not willing to invest time and money in professional equipment I am not sure this is going to end well. The members of the culinary teams are cooks, not professional sharpeners.
Never did I say the T-8 fitted everyone's budget or needs, nor that Tormek released low quality equipment ???
Nick,
I never intended to imply that you were making negative comments about Tormek. If you felt that way, I apologize.
In hindsight, some of my comments do seem a little short sighted. A busy professional sharpener should have a T8, even if his work was primarily knives. However, I do not believe that the T2 should be confined to being used solely by restaurant staff. The T2 online class mentioned steak knives. The T2 seems very logical for sharpening these. These should not require much time per knife, nor would esthetics be a high priority. The customer could be offered a volume discount. This could provide an additional source of revenue for the sharpener.
Some sharpeners offer a knife rental service. (Knife Grinders did.) A T2 could provide a very cost effective way of doing this.
I hope that anyone contemplating investing in a Tormek would not make that decision based on a single online recommendation. We have more sources available, including Tormek's online classes.
Ken
Hi,
I am new to this forum. I keep reading/watching YouTube posts about the Tormek T-8, and I am seriously thinking about buying it.
Can you please advise what wheels and accessories I should get?
I will be primarily using it for the following:
- woodworking tools for timber frame construction: framing chisels, slicks, draw knives
- axes: tree-cutting axes, carpenter axes, etc.
- woodworking tools: chisels of various widths and hand plane blades
- knives: kitchen knives, etc.
Quote from: BaltoT on December 15, 2023, 04:01:07 AMCan you please advise what wheels and accessories I should get?
The machine comes with se-77 which doe3s your slicks, chisels and plane irons. The Most cost effective way of getting the knife sharpening jigs, the axe jig and other misc jigs is to get the hand tool kit HTK-806. The Hand Tool kit may have jigs rarely used but you have them. The only one I don't use that much is the KJ-140.
As for your draw knife, depending on the style you *may* be able to use the knife jig but mine has a wide back and probably will not fit. If that is the case then the SVD-110 may work. I had sharpened my draw knife last time I used it and it has not been used since I got my Tormek so not sure whether I would hand sharpen still or use the SVD-110
From the HTK-806 kit spekks
The HTK-806 inludes:
- KJ-45 Centering Knife Jig (new model) <- essential
- KJ-140 Long Centering Knife Jig (new model) <- for longish flexible knives
- SVM-00 Small Knife Holder <- Pocket knives, paring jknives
- SVX-150 Scissors Jig
- SVA-170 Axe Jig
- SVS-38 Short Tool Jig
Thanks a lot!
I see there are some 'bundles' on sharpeningsupplies.com. Should I maybe get a 'bundle'? Is sharpeningsupplies.com a good site to buy?
How about wheels?
Welcome to the forum, BaltoT. I spent the last week of August visiting Tormek in Sweden with a small group of six from the US. Throughout the week, I enjoyed several informal opportunities to chat with members of our group. Our group included John, the founder of Sharpening supplies, and Darren, the senior employee (15 years). I immediately liked and grew to trust both of them.
I have long recommended choosing a dealer based on expectations of outstanding service. I have full faith in Sharpening Supplies.
Ken