Hi folks, I did a little searching and ive found loads of posts that include the word microscope but I havent found any recommendations. Obviously the ones that say 1000x for £17 are probably junk but can anyone recommend a model?
Many thanks
Alan
I would have a look at the WEX site and talk to them. They carry a comprehensive range of good quality products. They also have stores in a few major cities where you can view the products. I get the majority of my photographic equipment from them including second hand, both online and from their branches. And you can phone them up and talk to them for advice. The celestron handheld digital claims x220 but i think that is partly dependent on display. But certainly worth a look.
https://www.wexphotovideo.com/search/?q=Microscope&search_type=All
The conventional binocular microscopes tend to go up to x60 in that price range and reflective microscopes are considerably more so i think digital or secondhand is probably the way to go.
I couldnt find anything at LCE on line but they also have a range of optical stuff so would be worth a call as they have lots of branches throughout the uk.
What are your looking to do, use it for? Hard to make a recommendation without some knowledge about the "objective".
Quote from: Ukfraser on December 13, 2020, 10:05:45 AM
I would have a look at the WEX site and talk to them. They carry a comprehensive range of good quality products. They also have stores in a few major cities where you can view the products. I get the majority of my photographic equipment from them including second hand, both online and from their branches. And you can phone them up and talk to them for advice. The celestron handheld digital claims x220 but i think that is partly dependent on display. But certainly worth a look.
https://www.wexphotovideo.com/search/?q=Microscope&search_type=All
The conventional binocular microscopes tend to go up to x60 in that price range and reflective microscopes are considerably more so i think digital or secondhand is probably the way to go.
I couldnt find anything at LCE on line but they also have a range of optical stuff so would be worth a call as they have lots of branches throughout the uk.
Many thanks, i dont know anything about microscopes so I was looking for a model that maybe has been recommended here before, I will check wex out though.
Quote from: RickKrung on December 13, 2020, 02:20:42 PM
What are your looking to do, use it for? Hard to make a recommendation without some knowledge about the "objective".
Sorry I thought that posting on a sharpening forum the objective would of been clear. I would like to use it to look at the knife edge, I intend to buy the BESS at some point too. I read a post here that said to buy a 200x optical zoom but they are expensive so I wondered if anyone has purchased anything cheaper that they use to look at the burr.
I had guessed you were looking at the edge ;)
I used to work in a materials lab testing all kinds of products, biology labs and hospitals and all the optical equipment i have used was expensive and i also have expensive tastes when it comes to optics. In the lab i had a fantastic zeiss binocular with schott fibre optic light source but you would need to add a few naughts to your budget!
I havent invested in a microscope for looking at edges but your post got me thinking and i just went to my current suppliers to see what they have in your price range and celestron do have a good reputation for their optics to i thought it might meet you need though id go for the newer one which is slightly over your budget if digital ones would meet you need.
Yes, looking at the edge seems like an obvious objective. But "how" you look at it matters. Do you want to look at it real time, as you sharpen, to evaluate progress and examine the burr? Or do you want to take photos of it during or after, either just as information, to share online or whatever.
Actively examining the edge during the process of sharpening, I have found the Kingmas 60X hand microscope (https://www.amazon.com/KINGMAS-Microscope-Magnifying-Jewelry-Magnifier/dp/B00AQAANDS) to be the best. I've tried a variety of other mangifucations, the 40X that came with the Vetako goniometer (https://sharpeningtool.eu/en/catalog/accessories), but it does not appear to be included in their current offerings.
I looked into USB microscopes back when I wanted to get really good high magnification photos of the edge and burr, but was frustrated by their profound lack of clarity. There has been some discussion of microscopes for this purpose on the BESS Exchange (http://bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=343&highlight=microscope), which was the beginning basis of my search.
I had previously tried a dissecting microscope, but also found it lacking. I now just about exclusively rely on the Kingmas 60X. At around $7 US, it is hard to beat.
Rick
Quote from: Ukfraser on December 14, 2020, 09:53:05 AM
I had guessed you were looking at the edge ;)
I used to work in a materials lab testing all kinds of products, biology labs and hospitals and all the optical equipment i have used was expensive and i also have expensive tastes when it comes to optics. In the lab i had a fantastic zeiss binocular with schott fibre optic light source but you would need to add a few naughts to your budget!
I havent invested in a microscope for looking at edges but your post got me thinking and i just went to my current suppliers to see what they have in your price range and celestron do have a good reputation for their optics to i thought it might meet you need though id go for the newer one which is slightly over your budget if digital ones would meet you need.
Ah I just checked out the name, found a cheap ish one for £55 but no mention if its digital or optical zoom, for the price it must be digital which begs the question how good is it realy.... https://www.harrisontelescopes.co.uk/acatalog/celestron-deluxe-handheld-digital-microscope.html?gclid=CjwKCAiAt9z-BRBCEiwA_bWv-DaRyYQtKtn3ABtUjSA9Ir5PDs8NyFXolLetRr70T9XW3EagSWDaIxoCerEQAvD_BwE
Quote from: RickKrung on December 14, 2020, 05:03:16 PM
Yes, looking at the edge seems like an obvious objective. But "how" you look at it matters. Do you want to look at it real time, as you sharpen, to evaluate progress and examine the burr? Or do you want to take photos of it during or after, either just as information, to share online or whatever.
Actively examining the edge during the process of sharpening, I have found the Kingmas 60X hand microscope (https://www.amazon.com/KINGMAS-Microscope-Magnifying-Jewelry-Magnifier/dp/B00AQAANDS) to be the best. I've tried a variety of other mangifucations, the 40X that came with the Vetako goniometer (https://sharpeningtool.eu/en/catalog/accessories), but it does not appear to be included in their current offerings.
I looked into USB microscopes back when I wanted to get really good high magnification photos of the edge and burr, but was frustrated by their profound lack of clarity. There has been some discussion of microscopes for this purpose on the BESS Exchange (http://bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=343&highlight=microscope), which was the beginning basis of my search.
I had previously tried a dissecting microscope, but also found it lacking. I now just about exclusively rely on the Kingmas 60X. At around $7 US, it is hard to beat.
Rick
Thanks Rick, 7 dollars!!!!! Well if it's anywhere near that price in the uk it's worth a try, I want to look at the edge in real time as I'm sharpening, some of my knives need re shaping slightly due to uneven wear from a global waterstone sharpener, never noticed till I started looking to sharpen them on the T8. I havnt been brave enough to do my globals yet....
Doesn't look the the kingmas is available over here, loads of knock off on ebay by the looks, why copy a £3 product! I could order from China but we have a shit ton of stuff stuck in our docks right now .. hate waiting...
Ah I just checked out the name, found a cheap ish one for £55 but no mention if its digital or optical zoom, for the price it must be digital which begs the question how good is it realy....
[/quote]
Checking the specification, it has a very low res sensor.
You got that from the spec, you obviously know your scopes thanks, I won't be spending half a hundred on that then! ;D
Alan.
Just a techie nerd!
The £99 one from wex is
5МР ѕеnѕоr сарturеѕ hіgh-rеѕоlutіоn іmаgеѕ аnd vіdеоѕ
5-Еlеmеnt ІR сut hіgh-quаlіtу glаѕѕ lеnѕ еnѕurеѕ ѕhаrр іmаgеѕ
3D оbѕеrvаtіоnѕ оf уоur ѕресіmеnѕ frоm 20х tо 200х
The £139 one from wex has a lower res but it has some slightly better features
3.5MP high-speed sensor
10x to 220x power magnification
The £55 one
built-in 2MP for Snapshot Images and Videos
* Power - 10x to 40x and 150x
Bear in mind that most digital cameras are now about 12 mp, the sensor is still using camera technology of about 10 years ago which is ok but you would want a reasonable monitor.
If you are checking while sharpening, this may be inconvenient so you may just want to get a good loupe or something more robust with a lower magnification, this is times 60 and would be very comfortable to use and the sort of instrument i used through school to the materials lab and only stopped using when i stopped working in a lab environment though rick wasnt impressed with the one he used.
https://www.wexphotovideo.com/celestron-labs-s10-60-stereo-microscope-1744904/
Have fun! Make sure anything you get can be returned easily.
Ps, thanks for the post, ive been reliving memories of the sem and mtf equipment i used to get paid for playing with! Not to mention fuji's first digital camera with 900 pixels back in the 80's. Those were the days!
Quote from: Ukfraser on December 14, 2020, 10:06:25 PM
Just a techie nerd!
The £99 one from wex is
5МР ѕеnѕоr сарturеѕ hіgh-rеѕоlutіоn іmаgеѕ аnd vіdеоѕ
5-Еlеmеnt ІR сut hіgh-quаlіtу glаѕѕ lеnѕ еnѕurеѕ ѕhаrр іmаgеѕ
3D оbѕеrvаtіоnѕ оf уоur ѕресіmеnѕ frоm 20х tо 200х
The £139 one from wex has a lower res but it has some slightly better features
3.5MP high-speed sensor
10x to 220x power magnification
The £55 one
built-in 2MP for Snapshot Images and Videos
* Power - 10x to 40x and 150x
Bear in mind that most digital cameras are now about 12 mp, the sensor is still using camera technology of about 10 years ago which is ok but you would want a reasonable monitor.
If you are checking while sharpening, this may be inconvenient so you may just want to get a good loupe or something more robust with a lower magnification, this is times 60 and would be very comfortable to use and the sort of instrument i used through school to the materials lab and only stopped using when i stopped working in a lab environment though rick wasnt impressed with the one he used.
https://www.wexphotovideo.com/celestron-labs-s10-60-stereo-microscope-1744904/
Have fun! Make sure anything you get can be returned easily.
Ps, thanks for the post, ive been reliving memories of the sem and mtf equipment i used to get paid for playing with! Not to mention fuji's first digital camera with 900 pixels back in the 80's. Those were the days!
Fantastic info thank you for the input. I think I will do as you say and get a loupe for now, didnt even know what that was before I posted this. I may then stretch to something more expensivebif it helps me sharpen.
ATB.
Alan.
Quote from: ABall on December 14, 2020, 10:42:07 PM
Fantastic info thank you for the input. I think I will do as you say and get a loupe for now, didnt even know what that was before I posted this. I may then stretch to something more expensivebif it helps me sharpen.
ATB.
Alan.
I think you are best to start there and gain experience, both with sharpening and examining your work. I've settled on the 60X hand microscope. A couple of years ago, I bought and tried out this model of Dino-Lite (https://www.dino-lite.com/products_detail.php?index_m1_id=0&index_m2_id=0&index_id=139), primarily for the purpose of capturing higher magnification images of apexes and burrs.
(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4555.0;attach=5189)
Very hefty price tag and extremely disappointing result, particularly given that. I ended up trying three different units and models. Sent them all back.
Rick
Quote from: RickKrung on December 14, 2020, 11:44:43 PM
Quote from: ABall on December 14, 2020, 10:42:07 PM
Fantastic info thank you for the input. I think I will do as you say and get a loupe for now, didnt even know what that was before I posted this. I may then stretch to something more expensivebif it helps me sharpen.
ATB.
Alan.
I think you are best to start there and gain experience, both with sharpening and examining your work. I've settled on the 60X hand microscope. A couple of years ago, I bought and tried out this model of Dino-Lite (https://www.dino-lite.com/products_detail.php?index_m1_id=0&index_m2_id=0&index_id=139), primarily for the purpose of capturing higher magnification images of apexes and burrs.
(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4555.0;attach=5189)
Very hefty price tag and extremely disappointing result, particularly given that. I ended up trying three different units and models. Sent them all back.
Rick
Cheers Rick, I've been looking at all the loupe choices on amazon, very small lenses on the 60x versions, I might get one of the kingmas clones.
Quote from: RickKrung on December 14, 2020, 11:44:43 PM
...
I've settled on the 60X hand microscope
....
Me too. :)
Just to update, I've ordered the kingmass from HK, no idea when it will arrive with all our dock problems so I also purchased the Carson clip on model and that arrived toot sweet, I can say it's an amazing product for the price but an absolute PITA to use.....
Keep us posted, ABell.
Ken
Quote from: ABall on December 26, 2020, 10:05:16 PM
Just to update, I've ordered the kingmass from HK, no idea when it will arrive with all our dock problems so I also purchased the Carson clip on model and that arrived toot sweet, I can say it's an amazing product for the price but an absolute PITA to use.....
ABall,
I'm curious what you mean by the "Carson clip on model".
Along the way, I found and bought a clip on version of the Kingmas 60X (https://www.amazon.com/KINGMAS-Microscope-Magnifier-Universal-Smartphones/dp/B00PQ9XV2E/ref=sr_1_1?crid=ZYH4WH8W3HYE&dchild=1&keywords=kingmas+clip+on+microscope&qid=1609047736&sprefix=kingmas+clip+on%2Celectronics%2C249&sr=8-1), but do not use it as a clip on. I tried it that way and found it did a remarkable job, but just wasn't practical. The graduation marks in the one photo are 1mm. My curiousity is whether you found one similar.
I'm also interested in what you are finding to be the PITA about using it. I know it is awkward, to get close enough with good light and the depth of field is so shallow that it is difficult to get the image in focus and keep it there long enough to figure anything out. It is a Kingmas 60X that you are having the PITA with? Or the "Carson clip on"?
Two tricks I've figured out about the Kingmas. 1) hold the knife up toward a good light source and orient so you have good light reflection from the bevel. 2) focus the Kingmas slightly closer than at the contact point of the clear ring and then touch the clear ring to the blade and then tilt the Kingmas away on one side until the apex or bevel comes in to focus. Touching and tilting this way, I can achieve the focus I want and it allows me to maintain that focus.
Rick
Quote from: RickKrung on December 27, 2020, 07:05:43 AM
Quote from: ABall on December 26, 2020, 10:05:16 PM
Just to update, I've ordered the kingmass from HK, no idea when it will arrive with all our dock problems so I also purchased the Carson clip on model and that arrived toot sweet, I can say it's an amazing product for the price but an absolute PITA to use.....
ABall,
I'm curious what you mean by the "Carson clip on model".
Along the way, I found and bought a clip on version of the Kingmas 60X (https://www.amazon.com/KINGMAS-Microscope-Magnifier-Universal-Smartphones/dp/B00PQ9XV2E/ref=sr_1_1?crid=ZYH4WH8W3HYE&dchild=1&keywords=kingmas+clip+on+microscope&qid=1609047736&sprefix=kingmas+clip+on%2Celectronics%2C249&sr=8-1), but do not use it as a clip on. I tried it that way and found it did a remarkable job, but just wasn't practical. The graduation marks in the one photo are 1mm. My curiousity is whether you found one similar.
I'm also interested in what you are finding to be the PITA about using it. I know it is awkward, to get close enough with good light and the depth of field is so shallow that it is difficult to get the image in focus and keep it there long enough to figure anything out. It is a Kingmas 60X that you are having the PITA with? Or the "Carson clip on"?
Two tricks I've figured out about the Kingmas. 1) hold the knife up toward a good light source and orient so you have good light reflection from the bevel. 2) focus the Kingmas slightly closer than at the contact point of the clear ring and then touch the clear ring to the blade and then tilt the Kingmas away on one side until the apex or bevel comes in to focus. Touching and tilting this way, I can achieve the focus I want and it allows me to maintain that focus.
Rick
The clip on model doesnt have the same viewer for your eye as its designed to fit on the clip, there were comments on reviews that this made it harder to look through it but I wanted to take pics. heres the model. Its a PITA because Im not used to it I guess, shaky hands from all the beer the night before, A galaxy S9plus = difficult to hold and take snaps in focus, as soon as you touch the phone to take a shot it moves, go figure. lol
(https://i.imgur.com/ZvbbOBRb.jpg)
Heres a couple of pics of the SJ grind.
(https://i.imgur.com/KaupoQkb.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/noBEruRb.jpg)
and one from my Global Minosharp that I use daily on all my knives.
(https://i.imgur.com/T3YJAiKb.jpg)
Alan
Heres a link to the carson, I do think its good value. https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B015MS8O48/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I have tried to use portable microscopes, but they have difficulty keeping the various blades in focus. Lately I have been using a microscope, for me, very valid at a cheap price that can be purchased on Chinese sites. It could be a good solution.
https://www.banggood.com/MUSTOOL-G1200-Digital-Microscope-12MP-7-Inch-Large-Color-Screen-Large-Base-LCD-Display-1-1200X-Continuous-p-1553823.html?rmmds=myorder&cur_warehouse=CN
Quote from: van on December 27, 2020, 03:14:23 PM
I have tried to use portable microscopes, but they have difficulty keeping the various blades in focus. Lately I have been using a microscope, for me, very valid at a cheap price that can be purchased on Chinese sites. It could be a good solution.
Definitely tricky with the Carson, thanks for the link...
Alan
Quote from: van on December 27, 2020, 03:23:37 PM
https://www.banggood.com/MUSTOOL-G1200-Digital-Microscope-12MP-7-Inch-Large-Color-Screen-Large-Base-LCD-Display-1-1200X-Continuous-p-1553823.html?rmmds=myorder&cur_warehouse=CN
Does it have this problem?
(https://i.imgur.com/wOxq4Hxb.jpg)
Sorry, but from the photo I don't understand what problem you want to point out,
Unfortunately I am unable to post a photo of myself.
Quote from: van on December 27, 2020, 05:23:23 PM
Sorry, but from the photo I don't understand what problem you want to point out,
Unfortunately I am unable to post a photo of myself.
No worries, a few people have commented that the stand isnt bolted square so the microscope isnt square to the object, the picture is the knuckle joint where the microscope connects to the base, its clearly drilled badly.
Alan
Quote from: ABall on December 27, 2020, 01:52:27 PM
...snip...
The clip on model doesnt have the same viewer for your eye as its designed to fit on the clip, there were comments on reviews that this made it harder to look through it but I wanted to take pics. heres the model. Its a PITA because Im not used to it I guess, shaky hands from all the beer the night before, A galaxy S9plus = difficult to hold and take snaps in focus, as soon as you touch the phone to take a shot it moves, go figure. lol
(https://i.imgur.com/ZvbbOBRb.jpg)
...snip...
Alan
Ah, yes, the Carson. I have one, but forgot that I have it. That says a lot... Still prefer the Kingmas 60x.
The Carson I have is about 40x-120x but the lower end is not specified. I think 100x as a lower end is too much for a handheld, which may be part of the problem. I don't care for the light source. Too bright, there are too many too bright reflections such that I cannot see the actual details along the bevel/apex. Plus, I find it very difficult to move it along the bevel, even at 40x. The image is reversed so that could be part of the problem. The one I have is not a clip on, one either to objective or viewing end, so I cannot comment on those features.
Looks like your Global Minosharp works much better.
(https://i.imgur.com/T3YJAiKb.jpg)
Why are you looking for an alternative? Just want something faster and more convenient that a stand mounted one? Also, one that doesn't require benchspace? All three are some of my reasons.
Rick
Quote from: ABall on December 27, 2020, 05:45:02 PM
Quote from: van on December 27, 2020, 05:23:23 PM
Sorry, but from the photo I don't understand what problem you want to point out,
Unfortunately I am unable to post a photo of myself.
No worries, a few people have commented that the stand isnt bolted square so the microscope isnt square to the object, the picture is the knuckle joint where the microscope connects to the base, its clearly drilled badly.
Alan
I have not encountered any "relevant" problems,
I just added a circular light to improve the brightness.
Of course it still remains a cheap microscope, but it does its job.
Quote from: van on December 27, 2020, 06:15:22 PM
Quote from: ABall on December 27, 2020, 05:45:02 PM
Quote from: van on December 27, 2020, 05:23:23 PM
Sorry, but from the photo I don't understand what problem you want to point out,
Unfortunately I am unable to post a photo of myself.
No worries, a few people have commented that the stand isnt bolted square so the microscope isnt square to the object, the picture is the knuckle joint where the microscope connects to the base, its clearly drilled badly.
Alan
I have not encountered any "relevant" problems,
I just added a circular light to improve the brightness.
Of course it still remains a cheap microscope, but it does its job.
Absolutely.
Looks like your Global Minosharp works much better.
Eek, dont say that lol.
Why are you looking for an alternative? Just want something faster and more convenient that a stand mounted one? Also, one that doesn't require benchspace? All three are some of my reasons.
I wasn't looking for an alternate to be fair, before a couple of days ago I didn't own one so I'm on a voyage. Knowing what people are already using helps, I've got the kingmass coming in maybe a month from HK and I didnt think the cost of the Carson bad so thought I would give it a try. The one with the screen doesn't seem bad for £50, probably easier to use but I would like to see some results before I buy another.
Quote from: van on December 27, 2020, 03:14:23 PM
I have tried to use portable microscopes, but they have difficulty keeping the various blades in focus. Lately I have been using a microscope, for me, very valid at a cheap price that can be purchased on Chinese sites. It could be a good solution.
Looks interesting. I'd be interested in some photos posted that you have taken with it. Plus a "review" of it if possible, to include your ability to discern micro details of the burr at different stages of deburring.
I ask because looking at the reviews at the link you provided, I find a lot of negative comments but it is curious that the lowest review of "4" given the comments that abound in the reviews. Doesn't magnify anywhere near 1200x, more like 100x-400x. Focus jumpy, poorly finished, difficulty getting the USB connect connected, some arrive without a battery, "more of a macroscope than a microscope", "Nice gadget for children". The lack of magnification was stated MANY times and was the most common comment. Very curious about all the 4 and above ratings, given some were complaining of never receiving the unit but still had a "5" rating.
Rick
It being understood that it is always an economic microscope.
I can assure you that his "dirty" job does.
Maybe I was lucky but I have not encountered major problems, there are two models, one with a rechargeable battery and one without a battery.
If I can, soon, I'll post exhaustive photos of the various degrees of resolution of the images.
There are many videos about it on YouTube used for other application methodologies but they give valuable help.
Quote from: van on December 27, 2020, 06:52:52 PM
It being understood that it is always an economic microscope.
I can assure you that his "dirty" job does.
Maybe I was lucky but I have not encountered major problems, there are two models, one with a rechargeable battery and one without a battery.
If I can, soon, I'll post exhaustive photos of the various degrees of resolution of the images.
There are many videos about it on YouTube used for other application methodologies but they give valuable help.
That would be excellent Van, look forward to the pics, looking at irrelevant objects doesn't tell us what it's like from a knife edge view unless there are others that have shown its capability in this aera....
Alan
Here are some shots from my microscope.
I hope they are satisfactory for the purpose. (RESIZE)
Thanks van. What are we looking at, I mean what stone grades etc.
Also how did you snap the pics?
Quote from: ABall on December 27, 2020, 09:59:17 PM
Thanks van. What are we looking at, I mean what stone grades etc.
Also how did you snap the pics?
These are photos of the bevel of a knife yet to be sharpened.
The inexpensive microscope I use has an SD card for capturing both photos and videos. By connecting the microscope to the computer via a usb cable you can transfer the whole thing or use the computer monitor for a larger view
Thanks for uploading the pics van, I guess the important question is how easy is it to focus and is it stable, seems to be from your pics.
Quote from: van on December 27, 2020, 10:10:19 PM
...snip...
These are photos of the bevel of a knife yet to be sharpened.
...snip...
Van,
Following.
Some comments/questions regarding the bevel/apex in the above images.
1) What is the magnification of these images?
2) I'm not seeing anything that appears to be in sharp focus.
3) Question first. What surface (if any) is parallel to the camera lens? Comment: Given the very shallow depth of field within microscopes (getting worse [shallower] with greater magnification) whatever surface you are interested in should be positioned so as to be presented "flat" to the face of the camera lens. Stated another way, the surface of interest should be perpendicular to the long axis of the camera. Doing so will increase the amount of the surface of interest that is within the focus range at the magnification in use.
A way of addressing this shallow depth of field is with image stacking - taking multiple images at different focal locations, stacking them together and using software to select only the sharply focused regions to combine into a final image. Some cameras will do this internally but this function is also available in some image processing software packages. Examples are shown below, taken by Cyrano over on the BESSEX, first one non-stacked of jus the tip, second one stacked over a range of the tip. These also provide good examples of images in sharp focus. Note that magnification is around 245X. Thread on the BESSEX started by Cyrano (http://bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=343&highlight=cyrano); didn't find the photos I posted, but did find another great example in post #9 (http://bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=343&pid=3461#pid3461).
A couple years ago, when I was in search of a good USB scope for these same purposes, I was using these images as reference points. As mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, my efforts were in vain, even though I was using the same or similar USB camera as Cyrano. Never did figure out why, except that in deep conversations with the manufacturer's tech team, I learned they were having difficulties with the sensors used in their current scopes, which is why I ended up returning all.
Rick
There are two ways of focusing:
Either raise and lower the whole group or for more accurate focus you can use the central knob below the display. To have a decent brightness, I installed circular LEDs such as those used for high-end microscopes. The stability is optimal certainly superior to portable ones. The whole block is very stable for my use. A modification that I have implemented is to paint the chrome base with matte black to avoid annoying reflections for me.
Surely it is as You assert. These are photos taken on the fly without any software, which I don't have. With more time I will surely be able to post better photos. This is what I have and use, surely there are better miroscopes ...
Quote from: van on December 27, 2020, 10:55:00 PM
There are two ways of focusing:
Either raise and lower the whole group or for more accurate focus you can use the central knob below the display. To have a decent brightness, I installed circular LEDs such as those used for high-end microscopes. The stability is optimal certainly superior to portable ones. The whole block is very stable for my use. A modification that I have implemented is to paint the chrome base with matte black to avoid annoying reflections for me.
Surely it is as You assert. These are photos taken on the fly without any software, which I don't have. With more time I will surely be able to post better photos. This is what I have and use, surely there are better miroscopes ...
There are always something better bit it's good to get results on a budget!
Are you guys blowing off my questions/comments because the device you are using is not a higher end unit?
indeed!!! with these types of inexpensive microscopes you cannot expect "depth of field" for that purpose there are high quality, high priced dedicated microscopes. It all depends on the purpose of use and if the "game is worth the candle"
Quote from: RickKrung on December 27, 2020, 11:23:59 PM
Are you guys blowing off my questions/comments because the device you are using is not a higher end unit?
Steady on Rick, you've only asked one "guy" questions and it's pretty clear he's using a cheap ass microscope, I would love it to be a panacea for all our ills but it's just a cheap Chinese product, I would also like it to be the scope we are looking for but I dont think van has any preconceptions of it been a high end device, he has said as such.... I dont think van is going to answer all your questions even though I would like to know those answers too...
Quote from: ABall on December 27, 2020, 11:55:32 PM
...snip...
Steady on Rick, you've only asked one "guy" questions and it's pretty clear he's using a cheap ass microscope, I would love it to be a panacea for all our ills but it's just a cheap Chinese product, I would also like it to be the scope we are looking for but I dont think van has any preconceptions of it been a high end device, he has said as such.... I dont think van is going to answer all your questions even though I would like to know those answers too...
No worries man. Hard to get worked up about someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_of_field (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_of_field)
In all of what is described, it can be confusing to figure out what they are talking about, but it has very little to do with the quality of the scope. Sure, whatever depth of the subject that is in the depth of field is blurry due to poor quality, that cannot be altered and simply must be accepted as part of the choices made in selected/using such a device. That is not what I was speaking to. Higher quality optics will yield finer levels of focus/sharpness, but will not change the depth of field.
I definitely get that the scope under discussion is cheap, as in low quality. And I definitely get that there never will be a device/scope that satisfies all our desires. Those are not the question, so please do not try to pass it of as such.
Rick
Here is a link to a much earlier discussion of digital microscopes:
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2648.0
Back then, I purchased a Celestron digital like Grepper recommended in this topic. The cost was around $100US, which would be at the top of your budgeted range of 100 pounds. I chose that model because it seemed like a quality product which would do what I wanted at a reasonable price. It works very well with a laptop and makes digital photos. I have not used it much, but would buy it again if I needed another one.
One caveat I would add, I purchased it several years ago. I would use it as a starting reference and compare it with present models.
I know little about microscopes; however, as a dedicated amateur photographer since 1963, I have been fortunate enough to have had some excellent training over the years. This included some in depth training about depth of field at the Leica School. There are a lot of misconceptions about depth of field. The two determining factors in depth of field are the Ratio of Reproduction and the aperture. Ratio of Reproduction is the difference in image size between what is being photographed and the size of that image on the film or screen. A 25mm long knife edge photographed on 25mm of film or screen would have a Ratio of Reproduction of 1:1, commonly called "life size". A 250mm knife edge photographed on the same 25mm film would have a R of R of 1:10. Assuming the same aperture is used, the depth of field for the same R of R is the same, regardless of the focal length or optical quality of the lens. A high quality lens will have better resolution (sharpness); however the depth of field will be equal.
My favorite working tools are chisels. A chisel bevel is so much easier to see than a knife bevel. If you place the chisel with the bevel parallel to the film (or digital sensor) plane, it is easy to get the entire bevel in sharp focus.
The Celestron holds the microscope in place. You can use the microscope for before and after images or to check progress during sharpening.
Good lighting is essential.
Our forum expert was Grepper. Unfortunately, he has moved on to other interests; however a member search of his posts will bring up a lot of good information. Start with his earlier posts, 2015 and earlier. Another excellent source is bessex.com, the bess exchange.
I hope this helps.
Ken
Fantastic info Ken, I will check that thread out too. I had a quick look at those scopes on Amaozon and it appears you get what you pay for even over £100.
Having read the threads and looked at what Grepper was using there is now a newer model which is £50 off atm, under £100 then and the specs look good, could be a good choice... https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07MQB1HP9/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fabc_1BG6Fb6Q1ZT12?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
Check and understand the specs and capabilities carefully and make sure they suit your needs.
Scrolling down to the model comparison table, last line, each one shows 10x OR 1/2/300X which suggests to me they are not "zoom-able", which would severely limit their usefulness, to me at least. Hopefully, it isn't what is seems.
Rick
Ah thanks Rick, I may pop the question on amazon then, they deffo need to be zoomable!
I am old enough to regard 100 dollars or 100 pounds as a lot of money. As someone with a minuscule knowledge of microscopes, I would suggest careful study.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on December 28, 2020, 11:21:04 PM
I am old enough to regard 100 dollars or 100 pounds as a lot of money. As someone with a minuscule knowledge of microscopes, I would suggest careful study.
Ken
Me too, I'm also running out of time as the wife wants to start saving for a house, soon I will have to stop buying hobby shit.....
Reality check, I'm 54 and she is 37 so she probably wants to save some money for when I pop my clogs, no way we can get a house at this stage in life, but at least I've purchased some nice tools that she can hopefully sell on when I'm gone.... watch this space....
Quote from: RickKrung on December 14, 2020, 05:03:16 PM
Yes, looking at the edge seems like an obvious objective. But "how" you look at it matters. Do you want to look at it real time, as you sharpen, to evaluate progress and examine the burr? Or do you want to take photos of it during or after, either just as information, to share online or whatever.
Actively examining the edge during the process of sharpening, I have found the Kingmas 60X hand microscope (https://www.amazon.com/KINGMAS-Microscope-Magnifying-Jewelry-Magnifier/dp/B00AQAANDS) to be the best. I've tried a variety of other mangifucations, the 40X that came with the Vetako goniometer (https://sharpeningtool.eu/en/catalog/accessories), but it does not appear to be included in their current offerings.
I looked into USB microscopes back when I wanted to get really good high magnification photos of the edge and burr, but was frustrated by their profound lack of clarity. There has been some discussion of microscopes for this purpose on the BESS Exchange (http://bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=343&highlight=microscope), which was the beginning basis of my search.
I had previously tried a dissecting microscope, but also found it lacking. I now just about exclusively rely on the Kingmas 60X. At around $7 US, it is hard to beat.
Rick
The Kingmass arrived today to my surprise, go Amazon US. You were right its amazing for the money, mine doesnt say Kingmass on the pouch and the plastic ring that holds the barrel needs gluing in place but its so easy to focus and I can see the burr but more importantly I can move it along the blade with no loss of focus.
Thanks.
Quote from: ABall on December 30, 2020, 01:45:45 PM
...snip...
The Kingmass arrived today to my surprise, go Amazon US. You were right its amazing for the money, mine doesnt say Kingmass on the pouch and the plastic ring that holds the barrel needs gluing in place but its so easy to focus and I can see the burr but more importantly I can move it along the blade with no loss of focus.
Thanks.
Great. Sorry you had to do the gluing. Hopefully that fixes it. No matter what name is on it, I've seen them listed under all sorts of brands. Best hand scope I've found. I have four at various locations around my shop, metal machining and bamboo fly rod making plus two in my sharpening tools. I've given a few away and even put one in the silent auction at a bamboo fly rod makers gathering. Retail price was listed ($7) but it went for about five times that because the guys had seen what they could see on their rods with it.
The late Mark Reich, a BESS Exchange member, is the one I learned of it from in Post #4 (http://bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=232&pid=1843#pid1843) of this excellent thread on microscopes for knife edge examination (http://bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=232), started by Vadim of Knife Grinders.
Rick
Quote from: RickKrung on December 30, 2020, 03:18:15 PM
Quote from: ABall on December 30, 2020, 01:45:45 PM
...snip...
The Kingmass arrived today to my surprise, go Amazon US. You were right its amazing for the money, mine doesnt say Kingmass on the pouch and the plastic ring that holds the barrel needs gluing in place but its so easy to focus and I can see the burr but more importantly I can move it along the blade with no loss of focus.
Thanks.
Great. Sorry you had to do the gluing. Hopefully that fixes it. No matter what name is on it, I've seen them listed under all sorts of brands. Best hand scope I've found. I have four at various locations around my shop, metal machining and bamboo fly rod making plus two in my sharpening tools. I've given a few away and even put one in the silent auction at a bamboo fly rod makers gathering. Retail price was listed ($7) but it went for about five times that because the guys had seen what they could see on their rods with it.
The late Mark Reich, a BESS Exchange member, is the one I learned of it from in Post #4 (http://bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=232&pid=1843#pid1843) of this excellent thread on microscopes for knife edge examination (http://bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=232), started by Vadim of Knife Grinders.
Rick
Thanks Rick, reading those threads now, Mark was spot on, and who would of thought you could get this so cheap, the Carson is now classed as garbage by comparison.
ATB.
Alan.
Rick,
Thanks for posting the link to that bessex topic. It has most of the bessex "murderer's row" heavy hitters. Any serious knife sharpener should be part of the BESS exchange (bessex.com)
Sadly, Mark Reich passed away, a great loss to the knifemaking and sharpening communities. Mark was generous in sharing his extensive expertise. I have a platen that he made me for my Kalamazoo belt grinder. I treasure it as a gift from a friend. His machining was impeccable. I miss him.
Ken
Alan,
As a lifelong photographer, over the years I have purchased and used a formidable arsenal of Nikon close up/copy gear. For knife edge work, a digital microscope is hands down more practical.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on December 30, 2020, 04:08:21 PM
Alan,
As a lifelong photographer, over the years I have purchased and used a formidable arsenal of Nikon close up/copy gear. For knife edge work, a digital microscope is hands down more practical.
Ken
But which one? lol. I get the feeling its probably twice the cost of a BESS? In which case it will move down my priority list now I have the Kingmass.
Quote from: Ken S on December 30, 2020, 04:04:14 PM
Rick,
Thanks for posting the link to that bessex topic. It has most of the bessex "murderer's row" heavy hitters. Any serious knife sharpener should be part of the BESS exchange (bessex.com)
Sadly, Mark Reich passed away, a great loss to the knifemaking and sharpening communities. Mark was generous in sharing his extensive expertise. I have a platen that he made me for my Kalamazoo belt grinder. I treasure it as a gift from a friend. His machining was impeccable. I miss him.
Ken
Indeed, I agree on all your points. Mark was a great guy and as you say, very generous. We came from very different backgrounds but found some strong commonalities and talked quite a bit off-line. I miss him also.
Rick
Things to look for when buying usb microscope:
1. Magnification. 200x is about perfect.
What you want to look for is "optical" magnification, NOT "effective" magnification or "magnification dependent on monitor size".
Optical magnification is the magnification output of the scope's lens system where it focuses on the scope's image sensor.
Effective magnification is basically just like zooming in on an image displayed on your computer. The more the image is zoomed in on, the grainer it gets. You are just looking at a smaller area of the image and stretching it out to fill the monitor screen. Very different from optical magnification.
2. Image sensor resolution.
Higher resolution is better. If a 20mp image from a modern digital camera is displayed on your computer screen, you can zoom in a lot before the image gets grainy. But with a low resolution image, like a picture on newsprint, you can see the dots that comprise the image with a simple magnifying glass.
Higher resolution scope image sensors produce images with more actual image detail. A 5mp image sensor produces images with more than twice the image data of a 2mp image sensor in the scope.
3. Other considerations.
With a highly magnified field, ANY movement of the scope or subject is really problematic. The slightest bump will move the area observed and throw it out of focus. Without a super stable stand focusing can be a frustrating, hair pulling freak show. None of the "affordable" USB scopes have a good enough stand. I made one from a tapping jig.
Depth of Field: DoF is the area of the image that is in focus. We have all seen pictures where the subject is in focus but area in front and back of the subject is fuzzy. This is the Depth of Field focus area.
When magnification goes much over 200X, DoF becomes EXTREMELY shallow. At 1000x, you may need to refocus from top to bottom of a single cell. Even with the tiny aperture of USB scope, much above 200x the DoF is very shallow. When looking at a rolled edge for example, only the top surface of the roll will be in focus.
With super high magnification, in order to get a complete image of a rolled edge, it is necessary to focus on the top of the roll, take a picture, focus a little lower and take an image... Then combine all the images in a process called focus stacking. The are many software applications that can perform that task.
DO NOT get a biological scope. They are designed for light to pass through the subject, like a blood sample on a glass slide. All you will get with a knife blade is a silhouette.
The best images will come from a true metallurgical scope and good focus stacking software. Let's start at about $700.00.
Most "affordable" USB scopes have a 2mp image sensor. Not much. 5mp is better.
About the best bang for the buck scope I've found is this one. 200x optical magnification. 5mp image sensor:
https://www.amazon.com/Celestron-Handheld-Digital-Microscope-Pro/dp/B00CMJ1I08/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=celestron+pro+usb&qid=1609376758&sr=8-1
All that said, even a $30.00 scope is way better than no scope and is very informative.
Hope that is helpful!
Incredibly helpful, thank you for such an imformative contribution.
I hope there will be others like me who will find all of this very useful and I think there will be a few people happy to see you pop your head in, I'm sure someone said you no longer post here, apologies if I've got you mixed up.
All the best.
Alan.
Grepper,
Very well said, succinct and clear. Great to have you back, if even for this little bit. Do you know if there have been any developments with the Dino-Lite, and similar scopes, that address the issues we had previously?
Rick
Mr. ABall-
If it helps, all the microscope images in the following post were taken with the scope I mentioned. Lighting is everything, and I spent a lot of time getting it right. Used diffused side lighting and it took a bit of messing around. Shiny steel is difficult to photograph with just top lighting due to reflection.
http://bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=68&pid=510#pid510
Rick-
Good to hear from you! Nope. I really have not been keeping up any latest Dino changes. While beautiful microscopy is always tempting, I pretty much can get what I need from the Celestron and for as often as I use a scope I really can't justify a more expensive unit.
For everyone interested:
Any USB scope is better than none for understanding edges and sharpening. A stable stand is extremely important even if you have to make one. Lighting is everything. Experiment with side lighting. Maybe turn off the scope top light. Put tissue paper over a flashlight, hold it off to the side and move it around until you get the perfect image. It takes some messing around but even the cheapest scopes can produce informative images.
I'm more than happy to answer any questions I can. Not that I'm always right, but I'll try. :)
Welcome back, Grepper!
For our newer members who might not remember Grepper, if we ever gave a Most Valuable Member award, Grepper would be a prime candidate, and certainly on my short list. Over the years, he has been my computer, digital photography, microscope and battery guru, as well as having a strong influence on me with Tormeks and belt grinders and a friend.
I must confess that my email to him today may have had an influence on his replying. Alan, I was pleased to read the Celestron 5mp digital microscope he recommended for you is the same one he recommended for me. It works very well. Coming from my background of Nikon close up and copy equipment and specialized lenses, I have been amazed with the performance of the Celestron. Ditto Grepper's comment about "the best bang for your buck"!
Thanks, Grepper.
Ken
Aw, shucks Mr. Ken. Your praise is appreciated but truly not deserved.
I'm sure a lot of folks here don't know the history, but if anyone deserves recognition it is you for doing such a dedicated and time consuming job of taking over the Tormek Forum moderation after Jeff's departure. 6,800+ posts supporting the Tormek community. Amazing! I'm sure everyone here joins me in saying, thanks!
Aw, shucks, Mr. Grepper......
Ken
To Grepper:
It is a real pleasure to read your thoughts, which enrich our knowledge and dispel doubts and uncertainties. Learning is our duty, knowing how to express one's thoughts is a privilege of a few.
Thanks
BEST WISHES TO ALL :-*
Mr. ABall-
If it helps, all the microscope images in the following post were taken with the scope I mentioned. Lighting is everything, and I spent a lot of time getting it right. Used diffused side lighting and it took a bit of messing around. Shiny steel is difficult to photograph with just top lighting due to reflection.
http://bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=68&pid=510#pid510
Many thanks Grepper, I read the thread this morning, it was very enlightening.
Alan