I have long believed that the next major innovations in Tormek sharpening will be in honing. The recently introduced
CW-220 may be a step in that direction; however, given the lack of information, it is hard to know. It is marketed for supposedly "clean environments". I presume that may mean in food preparation areas, where using honing compound might be undesirable. However, it does not seem the same as the rubber honing wheel for the T2.
It is an option for the stripped down T8. I happen to think the stripped down option is a very good idea as a second machine for experienced users. I think beginners would be better served with the traditional package.
I happen to like the way it cuts, especially when moistened with water. I just found an interesting short video on Nick Agar's channel where he demonstrates using it to impressively hone a gouge. Nick used it dry. It was very polished very quickly.
I have not seen any grit numbers published, wet or dry. Nor have I seen any head to head comparison tests comparing it with the leather honing wheel or comparing wet to dry.
I would like more details about the "clean environment".
I think the use of the word "tip" was unfortunate for native English speakers. An earlier forum reply stated that using water was only a tip. For me that meant a suggestion, as opposed to a technical recommendation. I believe this is only a difference in languages.
From my limited use with the CW-220, I believe it is a useful product and a versatile second honing wheel. My opinion is lvargely bvased on my high regard for Tormek, rather than published factual evidence. I welcome more information.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on October 12, 2020, 03:26:30 PM
...However, it does not seem the same as the rubber honing wheel for the T2.
...
...I just found an interesting short video on Nick Agar's channel where he demonstrates using it to impressively hone a gouge. Nick used it dry. It was very polished very quickly.
...
Link to the video? (Couldn't find it).
Also anything specific that makes you think it's different than the T-2 wheel?
Good catch, CB. I admit that I neglected to post the link. In a lazy moment, I thought it would be very easy. I was able to locate it again, but only after some searching. (Sorry) Here is the link:
https://youtu.be/4ZVqF-SqtKA
I need to do some more comparison work with the CW-220 and the T2's rubber wheel. I can feel the bumpy surface of the CW-220, especially when wet, both with my fingers and with a chisel. I don't feel that roughness with the T2 rubber wheel.
Quote from: Ken S on October 12, 2020, 03:26:30 PM
I think the use of the word "tip" was unfortunate for native English speakers. An earlier forum reply stated that using water was only a tip. For me that meant a suggestion, as opposed to a technical recommendation. I believe this is only a difference in languages.
The Swedish copy uses the same word, so I don't necessarily think that it's an unfortunate translation in this case. I don't want to claim authority on this, but given that I'm half American, half Swedish, I'm familiar with both cultures and I'd guess that it's probably more a question of Swedes not wishing to tell other people how to do what they intend to do directly. (For example, our Corona guidelines "recommend" various behavior and such, which is implicitly understood to be "mandated" behavior, but we would never say so, which makes it hard for foreigners and immigrants to understand how to act.). I would, however, say that the bold text and the exclamation mark certainly strongly suggests that it's a rather firm recommendation :-).
What I would like to know is what kind of abrasive is being used.
By the way, Knife Grinders has two videos discussing the wheel:
- https://youtu.be/ZSDybo0KrzQ (https://youtu.be/ZSDybo0KrzQ)
- https://youtu.be/tVTg0HVgoKo (https://youtu.be/tVTg0HVgoKo)
Apparently, the grit used is rather large, I'd say.
On the language point, the Oxford English Dictionary has an extensive entry headed by the words:
"A piece of useful private or special information communicated by an expert".
Gratuities are a much more difficult subject!
Well stated, and it gave me a good chuckle, two important characteristics of a good post!
Ken
Just sharpened and honed using KnifeGrinder's suggested protocol of SB-250 Blackstone /CW-220 composite wheel / LA-220 leather wheel with .25 micron chromium oxide.
Wow. The pictures show me replicating Vadim's BESS numbers.
I estimate it reduces sharpening time by about a third.
If you're a commercial sharpener, run, don't walk to your favourite Tormek dealer and order one. (I ordered mine from the US as the Canadian wholesaler, Big Bear Tools, doesn't have it in yet).
I paid $90 CAD for shipping and it was worth every penny.
I forgot to add, this is well suited for sharpening cleavers. Instead of having to re-set the universal support bar height on 5 machines, I now only have to calibrate two. MUCH faster.
SO what's the secret ingredient? I don't know, and really don't care. All I care is that IT WORKS. Maybe it contains dust from the corners of IKEA warehouses...
Having said that, it's interesting that some gray stuff comes out when you spray the composite wheel with water.
Good on Tormek on coming out with yet another (obviously) well-researched product!
Nice result BeSharp!
Did you run your SB-250 coarse or fine?
What dps set on these knife?
What sw did you use to calculate the distanse?
Even
I replicated Vadim's protocol as much as possible, so:
1) SB-220 on coarse (doesn't make sense starting on fine?)
2) 16 dps (I sharpen a lot of Shun, and don't want to have to re-calibrate support bar heights)
3) KnifeGrinders FVB software
4) PT-50B
Part 2 of Vadim's video on the CW-220 (see link at post #3 above) includes a summary of six different protocols and resulting BESS values:
Note that Protocol #2 is the fastest method with a BESS score of less than 100 (wired edge removed). That is the method I replicated above.
Tried "Protocol #2" at the farmer's market two days ago. It performed well. This is a superior, and all-Tormek, alternative to using two paper wheels with 180 grit and the white honing compound.
Vadim emailed me and asked if I had done any Shuns this way.. I just so happened to have a customer's Shun on hand. Results below: BESS = 80.
Being able to even hone Shun's VG-MAX steel shows Tormek has indeed produced a superior product!
.25u Chromium Oxide Paste in Canada
I had difficulty finding .25 micron chromium oxide in Canada. Finally found this small mom and pop business in Port Rowan, Ontario (population: 1,102):
https://classicedge.ca
Look under Strops > Strop Paste > Chromium Oxide Paste
It's 50,000 grit chromium oxide.
Useful posts. Thanks for posting.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on October 12, 2020, 03:26:30 PM
I have long believed that the next major innovations in Tormek sharpening will be in honing. The recently introduced
CW-220 may be a step in that direction; however, given the lack of information, it is hard to know. It is marketed for supposedly "clean environments". I presume that may mean in food preparation areas, where using honing compound might be undesirable. However, it does not seem the same as the rubber honing wheel for the T2.
...
I have not seen any grit numbers published, wet or dry. Nor have I seen any head to head comparison tests comparing it with the leather honing wheel or comparing wet to dry.
...
From my limited use with the CW-220, I believe it is a useful product and a versatile second honing wheel. My opinion is lvargely bvased on my high regard for Tormek, rather than published factual evidence. I welcome more information.
Ken
I finally got a CW-220 wheel, and agree that it doesn't seem to be the same as the T-2 honing wheel.
But, think it has diamond in it? It sure glitters in the sunlight. I shot a couple of quick video clips moving it around in sunlight...
https://imgur.com/a/WL5XPpQ
... hmmm... ???
I believe the technical term for the abrasive material is "the secret sauce".
I agree, it seems very different than the T2 rubber wheel. I wish Tormek would release more information about these two.
Ken
Quote from: BeSharp on October 19, 2020, 04:53:24 PM
Part 2 of Vadim's video on the CW-220 (see link at post #3 above) includes a summary of six different protocols and resulting BESS values:
Note that Protocol #2 is the fastest method with a BESS score of less than 100 (wired edge removed). That is the method I replicated above.
Impressive work BeSharp!
Is there a way to mount the composite wheel and the leather wheel on one machine? Just thinking for maximum efficiency it would be nice to not have to remove the SB-250... So Protocol 2 could be done with two Tormeks - one for grinding and one with the composite + leather wheels...
Quote from: BradGE on October 28, 2020, 08:38:14 AM
Quote from: BeSharp on October 19, 2020, 04:53:24 PM
Part 2 of Vadim's video on the CW-220 (see link at post #3 above) includes a summary of six different protocols and resulting BESS values:
Note that Protocol #2 is the fastest method with a BESS score of less than 100 (wired edge removed). That is the method I replicated above.
Impressive work BeSharp!
Is there a way to mount the composite wheel and the leather wheel on one machine? Just thinking for maximum efficiency it would be nice to not have to remove the SB-250... So Protocol 2 could be done with two Tormeks - one for grinding and one with the composite + leather wheels...
Vadim did all the research, not me. The credit goes to him. I merely replicated his research.
I don't know of a way to mount both the CW-220 and a LA-220 on one machine, since both have three pins that fit into the big drive wheel so it doesn't slip. Perhaps custom machining something on the other end? I'm fortunate that I now have six machines, so I'll be using two machines - just ordered another frontal vertical base.
BeSharp: Great, thank you! Just trying to picture the setup... Sounds like it would be:
1) Grind on machine 1.
2) Remove stone on machine 1 and hone on composite wheel with FVB, then:
3) Switch to machine 2 with leather wheel + chromium oxide
4) Hand back knife to smiling customer :)
I think your two Tormek set up sounds very efficient, especially for farmers market type situations.
Although presently I could do the two Tormek set up, part of me remembers the years when I had a growing family and all the accociated expenses, when I had more enthusiasm than money. So, I think in terms of how close can I come with a more limited budget, at least until a sharpening business brings in enough revenue to warrent the investment in a second Tormek.
I am familiar with Vadim's well done Knife Grinders videos. He makes a wise comment, "If all you have is the SG grinding wheel, use it". That makes sense to me, although I can see the logic in replacing it with an SB when it starts to wear down. I would replace the SG while there is still good use remaining to give the option of still having it for carbon tools.220mm seems a good compromise replacement point, still leaving a useful wheel.
I like the CW-220 for light knife sharpening. Dull knives would get the full treatment; slightly dull knives should need only the CW-220, a time saver. I think a second support bar is a good investment, especially the US-430.
Iwould also have the leather honing wheel.
I would start out with a hanging strop of flat strop at the finishing step. As finances permit, I like the second Tormek idea.
I have and like the FVB from Knife Grinders. On a tight budget, or for more occasional use, I think three socket set (grub) screws for around $5 US provide a workable alternative, again, for use until business volume justifies the cost of the FVB.
I believe we are just starting to see more innovations in Tormek honing.
Ken
CW220 is installed on T4. Installation used two standard T8 spare parts.
Clever idea, Arthur.
Would you please post the part names and numbers? Here is a link to the parts pages of Advanced Machinery. The parts should be available from any Tormek dealer. This is the best listing I have found.
https://advanced-machinery.myshopify.com/pages/tormek-parts-finder
Thanks,
Ken
Thank you Ken for the appreciation for the newbie!
The following t8 parts from the Advanced machinery catalog were used for installation:
1. 04 Drive wheel for Tormek T-8, T-7, and S2000 (part 0023)
2. 29 Washer for Stone (part 0111).
Of course, there is no problem replacing these parts with cheaper ones. But Tormek is versatile!
And provides more options for t4 owners.
Thanks, Arthur.
I agree with you on both counts: the Tormek is versatile and there are many options available for the T4. Two questions keep reoccurring: What is possible? And, what is practical? Comparing the parts lists of the T4 and the larger Tormeks, almost all of the parts are identical. Obviously, the shell is smaller and the motor is 120 watts instead of 200 watts. The T4's shaft is shorter running through the shell; however, the two ends where the grinding wheel and drive wheel are located are identical. It uses the same nylon bushings.
There are some real limitations. While, in my opinion, the thirty minute constraint is an unfortunate but corrected leftover from the T3, I do not expect a 120 watt motor to carry the same load as a 200 watt motor.
I must take my grandchildren to school. I will return and complete this..
Back again. I have been a vocal supporter of the T4 since it was introduced in 2014. I can see some situations where the larger motor of the T8 is preferable. If I sharpened many large drill bits or frequently sharpened planer blades or reshaped manyturning tools, the T8 would be my first choice. However, for the everyday sharpening most of us do, the T4 seems up to the task, especially if we are clever.
I like your CW-200 adaptation to T4 idea. Please continue to keep us posted.
Ken
Quote from: BradGE on October 28, 2020, 08:38:14 AM
Is there a way to mount the composite wheel and the leather wheel on one machine? Just thinking for maximum efficiency it would be nice to not have to remove the SB-250... So Protocol 2 could be done with two Tormeks - one for grinding and one with the composite + leather wheels...
Yes, there is a way to mount both the composite wheel and the leather wheel on one machine. This modification is easy, costs very little, and is reversible if you want to mount a stone again.
DISCLAIMER: THIS MODIFICATION IS OBVIOUSLY NOT ENDORSED BY TORMEK, AND WILL PROBABLY VOID YOUR WARRANTY.
Parts needed:
Tormek drive wheel for T7 / S2000, part 0023, $98.50 USD
Tormek locking pin for T7/S2000, part 5071, $2.95 USD (but see below)
20mm wide spacer with 12mm hole (or just use lots of 1/2" flat washers)
Tools needed:
Drill press
9/64" drill bit
Deburring bit
Fortunately I have six Tormeks, so I already had a "spare" drive wheel and locking pin. I chose the worst drive shaft to try this (it has a slight bend - but OK since not as critical for honing).
Taking the regular drive wheel off with a 19mm wrench, you will see there is a spring pin through a hole in the shaft. Conveniently, the stone side of the shaft is the same diameter (12mm) as the drive side.
Therefore, all you need to do is to drill a same size hole on the stone side, and then insert a spring pin in that new hole.
Being a spring pin, the new hole diameter is not critical. Trying drill bits on the factory hole, a 9/64" drill bit fitted the best. As for the spring pin, it measured 3.4mm, so it's probably a 1/8" spring pin. You can order the pin from Advance Machinery, but, really, just get a 1/8" spring pin and cut it to length to match the existing pin.
(Dimensions below are for a T7. I have not tried this on a T8).
Here is the hole drilled and deburred on the shaft's stone side. Be sure to deburr the hole at both ends to relieve stress on the steel shaft.
I have a 20mm wide spacer from a felt wheel package for serrated knives. Alternatively, get a bunch of M12 or 1/2" washers and use them as spacers. Since both wheels are for honing, with no water used, they don't even have to be stainless steel.
For my situation, with the 20mm long spacer, the hole worked out to be 24mm from the shaft end. Once again, this does not have to be exact, as the slot for the spring pin in the drive wheel is quite deep, and so is forgiving as to the exact hole location. It is more critical to get the hole centred on the shaft, and also perpendicular.
Re-assemble the original drive side wheel and push it through. Insert/build up your washer, then insert the new spring pin through the new hole. Place the new drive wheel onto the new spring pin, then place your right side wheel (CW-220 or LA-220) through the axle, and secure with the EzyLock nut.
Cost Analysis
Is this worth doing?
1) Option 1 - use one Tormek, one Frontal Vertical Base ("FVB") - it takes me about a minute to switch the honing wheels and adjust the Universal Support ("US") up/down (about 30 seconds for each). If you're not a commercial sharpener, this is the most cost-effective method.
However, let's say you are a commercial sharpener and price your services at $60 an hour (a dollar a minute). Then swapping wheels ($.50) and fiddling with the US height ($.50) costs $1 in time for every knife...
2) Option 2 - do this modification (about $120). No swapping wheels, just fiddle with USB height. Break-even is 240 knives.
3) Option 3 - buy a second Tormek; say $500 for a custom T8. Saves swapping wheels, but still have to move the FVB from one machine to the other (say 15 seconds = $.25), and also adjust US height ($.50). Break-even is 667 knives.
4) Option 4 - buy a second custom T8 ($500) with a second FVB ($150) = $650. No swapping wheels, no moving FVB between machines, no adjusting US height. Break-even is at 1,300 knives.
In conclusion, Option #2 seems to be the best value. Option #4, of course, saves the most time.
I disagree with KenS "I think beginners would be better served with the traditional package." Don't misunderstand me Ken... much respect for your knowledge/ experience (evidence in myriad posts here). I simply disagree completely. That said, I both atypical number of ways and I have not use normal honing wheel... I could swore I saw when buying something about just add water, that seem so much easier than trying put oil on standard one evenly, then putting compound on evenly, then probably more cleaning involve regular basis, plus buying compound recurring basis. I find simplicity/ beauty in putting two fingertip against standard stone (fine) for a second get wet, then touch composite honing wheel couple seconds, repeat, then hone. And I still have fingerprints these fingers, but can't think of single reason I actually need them. Try it. Not that I necessarily disagree with anything else in entire topic. Simply saw that statement, immediately disagreed, wanted explain why. Eye of beholder... just specific use case and my opinion.
Naf,
Please do not hesitate to post your thoughts, especially if they happen to disagree with mine. I am certainly no expert, and am definitely not offended.
You know your sharpening needs better than I do. You should do what you want. The SB-250 is specifically designed for hss tools, like turning tools. Although the SG-250 is designed for high carbon tools like knives, I know a real deal Tormek knife expert who uses the SB for knives. The composite honing wheel is very new, although I see no reason why it would not work for you.
I am concerned about your comments regarding your thoughts about the difficulties using the leather honing wheel with honing compound. They have served Tormek users well for many years. The recurring cost of Tormek honing compound on an ongoing basis is minimal. Mastering the leather honing wheel is a traditional Tormek skill. It is also one which you can sidestep. You can always purchase the leather honing wheel later if you wish.
The choice is yours. I offer only what has worked for me.
Ken
I understand what you're saying. Not sure you understand what I'm saying. (No need for your concerns about my comments regarding standard honing wheel, don't believe) I said, "I both atypical number of ways and I have not use normal honing wheel", attempting an indication my expressed opinion in disagreement with only one statement of yours only valid in my situation (or one similar). Over course of reading probably thousands of your posts here, that single sentence of yours only thing I recall disagreeing with, yet in this case did so too most extreme extent possible. This cause I T newbie and have use standard stone and composite honing wheel exclusively, with good results (300 or less unless I screw up - see my other few posts so far; point is, I simply not want other beginners out rule notion of using purely composite honing wheel, due to your statement... base on my situation, which certainly not the norm in lotta ways, I find it work amazing, and obviously (to me) seemed would be much easier / cheaper / less cleanup / better over alternative tried and true honing wheel so that what I selected/ use from beginning. Having clarified, very glad you said didn't offend as never intend to. Always have prefer environment where open disagreement can be discuss cordially, that how I prefer learn and help others learn. But I never much mind being wrong and being told this... again atypical to at least some extent. Funny you mention SB wheel for knives, considering replacing standard wheel with that, sound like it effective with less pressure. No, I not think I switch standard honing wheel in future, for exact same reasons I started with composite.... and wouldn't sell it for twice paid, even though it wobble little bit. Everybody different, I definitely different. I wrong often and when I do, you hear me say when I realize this... wish more people that way. Now for sake of clarity... I not say KenS wrong, I just wholeheartedly disagreeable with the statement. I think some beginners could be better (and maybe even would be better) served with the composite wheel and merely wanted encourage them try it outright like I previously indicated I did... very cool. Now, if anyone want read between the lines with post, that would be incorrect. I don't mind saying precisely what I mean and prefer others do the same. That said, I have read here possibly couple dozen posts here where poster factually incorrect (wrong) yet adamant they're not and have not say a thing. No point starting a probable argument to quickly bow out of, only ensuring they continue to be adamantly wrong. In this case, however, I immediately feel I completely disagree and merely want express humble newbie opinion, hoping it help somebody like me, preparing to shell out some serious coin. Obviously two different things to a number of us. Others probably quit reading some time ago. Ken, to me you are an expert, light years ahead. Life a full contact sport and things rarely simple. Except for when we're teenagers and know everything.