I just got a T-4 about two months ago, and it took me that long to get good with the Tormek. Being proficient on the Tormek gave me the confidence to get a 1x30 belt sander. I have the regular knife jig(SVM-45), and the small knife jig(SVM-00). I am wanting to get the MB-100 Multi-Base, the US-430 Universal Support Extended guide bar, the Japanese Waterstone(SJ-200), and a Tornado Jr CBN wheel for the T-4. I added a magnet to the water tray to pick up the metal. I rounded one corner of the regular stone (SG 200) so I can do recurves and hawkbills. I sharpened my Spyderco Lil' Matriarch using that method, and it was the only way I managed to get the knife sharp. I have noticed that the Tormek gets knives sharp that I had a lot of difficulty sharpening by hand. I really thing that using the Tormek is the best way to sharpen a knife. I have freehand sharpened with whetstones for years, and the Tormek is just amazing, it leaves awesome perfect edges. I really like the Tormek T-4, and I want to get a T-8 someday. I sometimes think I should have gotten the T-8 instead of the T-4. because it has so many more options and wheels made for it. I think I will be fine with the regular wheel and the Japanese wheel with the T-4, it just would be nice to have the same options as the T-8. I got the T-4 because I live in a small apartment, and the T-4 is a lot smaller and lighter than the T-8, so I went with the T-4.
Any suggestions on how I should go about adding and using accessories for the T-4? Also, does anyone have advice for a set of belts to use for the 1x30?
Thank you in advance.
Jason
Jason,
Based on your post, your T4 was a logical choice. You live in a small apartment and you sharpen knives.
Options? I would divide this into two questions: What options are available? And, what options do you realistically need?
All of the Tormek jigs are fully functional with either the T4 or T8.
If you think that only two grinding wheels are available for the T4, keep looking. I have had eight wheels for my T4. The four Tormek made wheels include two diamond wheels. Three of the other wheels are conventional wheels in 80 and 46 grit. The eighth wheel is a 180 grit CBN. In addition to these wheels, which are already more than one needs, there are several more available. You just have to know where to look.
The two Tormek diamond wheels (DWF-200 and DWC-200) are marketed by Tormek for the T2. Both cut very well and fit the T4 exactly. The only drawback is that they are only designed to work dry. I think this will change in the not too distant future. Both diamond and CBN wheels are evolving.
In the past, the larger motor of the T8 size Tormeks allowed for more pressure and heavier grinding. With the lighter pressure required with diamond and CBN grinding, I no longer see much advantage in a larger motor.
With belts, you will find a Scotch Brite very fine grit useful for removing staining and surface rust.
Ken
Interesting, thank you! I didn't know that the T2 wheels would fit the T4, that is good to know. I did find a CBN wheel, the Tornado JR that someone makes for the T4. For just sharpening knives, the SG-200 wheel works awesome, it chews threw any steel I have given it, even high carbide steels like M390 and S90V. I really want the Japaneses Waterstone Wheel, the SJ-200 so I can have mirror edges, I really like shiny edges on knives for some reason.
Quote from: jasonstone20 on September 01, 2020, 06:09:44 PM
I really want the Japaneses Waterstone Wheel, the SJ-200 so I can have mirror edges, I really like shiny edges on knives for some reason.
You can get mirror finishes with the SG and the honing wheel. Make sure the SG is free of swarf by applying the coarse side of the stone grader if necessary. Then use the fine side of the stone grader, but you have to apply a lot of force and spend a lot of time to get the SG properly graded. Then, after sharpening the knife use the honing wheel. In my experience this gives a mirror finish. I've never tried the SJ.
Knives that are sharpened in this way may not perform well for some kitchen tasks. For example, when slicing a tomato I like the knife edge to be a bit rough so it cuts through the tomato skin better. On the other hand, that nice smooth finish is good for carving wood. I'll never forget the first time I got a wood chisel sharp with my Tormek. The chisel performed like a completely different tool. I spent several years working as a carpenter and had never appreciated the value of a chisel because I never had a truly sharp one.
Ok, I will give it a try. When the T4 was new, I was able to get a mirror edge, but I haven't been able to do that recently.
Ken,
I was thinking about getting the SJ-200 Japanese Waterstone next. Do you think it is a worth it for sharpening knives?
Quote from: jasonstone20 on September 02, 2020, 07:48:36 PM
...
I was thinking about getting the SJ-200 Japanese Waterstone next. Do you think it is a worth it for sharpening knives?
My vote is no... especially since you sharpen higher end steels. Coarser wheels like the SG will work on them, but the finer you go, the less effective they are.
I would look into a 2nd leather wheel and use it with a diamond compound.
Quote from: jasonstone20 on September 02, 2020, 07:47:28 PM
Ok, I will give it a try. When the T4 was new, I was able to get a mirror edge, but I haven't been able to do that recently.
That sounds like a technique problem rather than an equipment problem. It also sounds like something not related to which Tormek model you are using.
I would suggest serious study (meaning multiple careful watchings) of the Tormek online knife sharpening class and focused sharpening. Don't hesitate to post questions.
Ken
Quote from: jasonstone20 on September 02, 2020, 07:47:28 PM
Ok, I will give it a try. When the T4 was new, I was able to get a mirror edge, but I haven't been able to do that recently.
I didn't see this earlier.
Some have had luck grading the stone with a diamond plate. For example...
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2656.0
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3681.0
... you can use the fine diamond plate to grade it finer/smoother.
Thanks, I will watch the videos again and try a diamond plate to condition the stone. I have an inexpensive one from eBay that I can use.
Quote from: Ken S on September 02, 2020, 09:39:01 PM
Quote from: jasonstone20 on September 02, 2020, 07:47:28 PM
Ok, I will give it a try. When the T4 was new, I was able to get a mirror edge, but I haven't been able to do that recently.
That sounds like a technique problem rather than an equipment problem. It also sounds like something not related to which Tormek model you are using.
I would suggest serious study (meaning multiple careful watchings) of the Tormek online knife sharpening class and focused sharpening. Don't hesitate to post questions.
Ken
I think you are right. Originally, when I was getting mirror edges, I graded the stone on the coarse side, sharpened, then graded the stone to the fine side, sharpened, and then honed. Now I am just leaving the stone graded fine, and using it, then going to the honing wheel. This lead to the 'no mirror edge' thing I think.
CB,
Thanks for posting the two topics links. The first topic is an excellent example of why I prefer this forum over social media platforms. There is a depth of information in the topic that I have not seen on facebook. Also, several opinions are intelligently presented.
I realize what I call "soundbite topics" are popular these days. I am the dinosaur; I prefer more in depth posts and do not mind reading several pages or watching longer videos. This forum has great potential to advance Tormek technology. Unfortunately, I believe that Tormek, like the rest of the marketing world is focused on facebook and instagram.
I remain hopeful.
Ken
Jason,
Pick one knife and stay with it until you get the result you want. You will save time in the long run.
Ken
Will do.
One issue I have with Facebook, Instagram and the Internet in general is that everyone thinks of themselves as an expert or well qualified to give an opinion. Unfortunately, most times they are simply repeating what they have heard or read. Product review sites are rampant with plagiarism and it is virtually impossible to site an original source. Urban myths are so wildly spread they are accepted as fact even though most are not backed up by science.
This site is well run and the experience of the members is unmatched by most Internet. sites.
Quote from: jasonstone20 on November 01, 2020, 05:51:34 PM
I think you are right. Originally, when I was getting mirror edges, I graded the stone on the coarse side, sharpened, then graded the stone to the fine side, sharpened, and then honed. Now I am just leaving the stone graded fine, and using it, then going to the honing wheel. This lead to the 'no mirror edge' thing I think.
The stone, even though left graded fine... occasionally needs to be "touched up" to stay that way. (Probably why you were getting better results before, you were dressing it more often).
Ok, I will give it a try.
Ok, I got pretty close to a mirror edge, more like a satin mirror edge, I think I could have gotten a shiner bevel, but I wasn't trying for a mirror edge, I just was going for sharp. Before, I was also grinding edge trailing, now I am edge leading. I would have gotten a true mirror if I was using the Tormek edge trailing. I got the edge to shave above the skin, push cut phone book paper 1/2" away from the point of hold, and it would sever a head hair completely in both directions. What I did was using edge leading, graded the stone Coarse, sharpened to a small burr, graded the stone to Fine, reduced the burr, then I removed the sharpening stone, put the spacer that it ships with on the axle, then used guide bar in the edge trailing position and use the sharpie to match the angel on the leather honing wheel.
I resharpened again with edge trailing, just to see the difference, and that gave me a mirror edge.
I also have been running some very low angles, which gives me a very wide bevel, and even though it is shiny, I still get striations showing.
This 2-minute video, "Science Behind the Mirror Edge", might be helpful:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DzsV3T-Isi4
Quote from: jasonstone20 on November 26, 2020, 03:37:48 AM
I also have been running some very low angles, which gives me a very wide bevel, and even though it is shiny, I still get striations showing.
Jason, you have too many variables. Return to the way you were working when you were getting your best edges. Do not change anything until you can get those edges consistently over a longer time period. Extra gear and grinding wheels will not improve your sharpening; skill from experience will. Switching to a T8 certainly will not be a magic bullet. Your SG-200 has served you well, and will continue to do so.
If you have not already purchased one, I would recommend you get a TT-50 truing tool, preferably the newer 2019 version. It is essential.
If you do not already have them, pick up a couple knives of the kind and quality of what you are sharpening as practice tools.
Keep us posted.
Ken
Ken,
Thank you, I will go back to the basics and simplify my sharpening method. I can get sharp edges, that isn't the issue. I am wanting to get them cosmetically nicer.
Quote from: jasonstone20 on November 01, 2020, 05:51:34 PM
Quote from: Ken S on September 02, 2020, 09:39:01 PM
Quote from: jasonstone20 on September 02, 2020, 07:47:28 PM
Ok, I will give it a try. When the T4 was new, I was able to get a mirror edge, but I haven't been able to do that recently.
That sounds like a technique problem rather than an equipment problem. It also sounds like something not related to which Tormek model you are using.
I would suggest serious study (meaning multiple careful watchings) of the Tormek online knife sharpening class and focused sharpening. Don't hesitate to post questions.
Ken
I think you are right. Originally, when I was getting mirror edges, I graded the stone on the coarse side, sharpened, then graded the stone to the fine side, sharpened, and then honed. Now I am just leaving the stone graded fine, and using it, then going to the honing wheel. This lead to the 'no mirror edge' thing I think.
If you sharpen with the stone graded "fine" for a number of knives it will no longer be truly fine. The stone will settle into a spot that is more towards a middle ground maybe on the fine side of middle. I often use this spot to sharpen knives that I have worked on before that do not need as much metal removed to sharpen. After using this setting I will always use the grading stone to get an even finer SG-250.
Ken,
I will try and take some pictures of the results I had, and what I am getting now, maybe that will help figure things out a little.
Jason there is a class on Wednesday for the T-4 by Tormek you might enjoy. It is at 0830 CT in US.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eCDSZ2PHU0&fbclid=IwAR1LgBc3erl8bDpvqiz5AECZr21JuQu8tkZRG9RHviuUnE2fcgpu2SzB-Vw
Thank you, I will give it a look.
Here are some pictures I took:
Early Torkmek mirror edges:
(https://i.postimg.cc/2yCKdtcq/IMG_20201204_092611_2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Kksfx0yF)
(https://i.postimg.cc/4ywFW1qW/IMG_20201204_092707_2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WqFn302Z)
(https://i.postimg.cc/qRVYqq2x/IMG_20201204_092728_2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rdjgY8nD)
Later Tormek mirror edge:
(https://i.postimg.cc/tCCcYLnw/IMG_20201204_092852_2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RqydYpRL)
Fixed System mirror edge:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vm6kGfxm/IMG_20201204_092804_2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mcB8wcwx)
I watched the T-4 Bushcraft video, and that is how I use the machine:
https://youtu.be/NXYBimqrGAE
Here is a knife that is thin behind the edge and has a thinner bevel, and it has a mirror edge from the T-4:
(https://i.postimg.cc/RVs1C0t6/IMG_20201204_125205_2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xcmNtntn)
Why do you call them mirror edges ?
Quote from: kwakster on December 06, 2020, 03:05:06 PM
Why do you call them mirror edges ?
If you truly have a mirror bevel you can hold it next to print and easily see the letters in reverse like a glass mirror. As you are slicing the shiny bevel will have less friction than a rough one making the cutting easier.
I know what a mirror edge is supposed to look like, it's just that so far i haven't seen one in this thread.
This is a mirror edge on a user Spyderco PM 2 in CPM-M4 steel i did on my Paper Wheels some time ago.
(you can enlarge each picture 2 x for more detail):
(https://s22.postimg.cc/w4bq006x9/GEDC0607.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/w4bq006x9/)(https://s22.postimg.cc/s6ogalk3x/GEDC0606.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/s6ogalk3x/)
(https://s22.postimg.cc/vh87wqknh/GEDC0599.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/vh87wqknh/)(https://s22.postimg.cc/qb1nzfv9p/GEDC0603.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/qb1nzfv9p/)
(https://s22.postimg.cc/i5o7f0wel/GEDC0613.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/i5o7f0wel/)(https://s22.postimg.cc/cejscp3bh/GEDC0590.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/cejscp3bh/)
(https://s22.postimg.cc/ouuqv1hql/GEDC0612.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ouuqv1hql/)(https://s22.postimg.cc/sjkfuirrh/GEDC0616.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/sjkfuirrh/)
(https://s22.postimg.cc/nuv97unt9/GEDC0594.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/nuv97unt9/)(https://s22.postimg.cc/uzd2gvv2l/GEDC0595.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/uzd2gvv2l/)
(https://s22.postimg.cc/p630gbjf1/GEDC0591.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/p630gbjf1/)
I wasn't trying to show off my mirror edges. I am trying to show the difference between the results I am getting from the Tormek and one on the fixed system I have, so I used camera angles that caught the scratch whole scratch pattern, like you can see was done on your shot were you can see the scratch patter at the heel of the blade.
Here is the exact same knife with the same edge, just different lighting:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zfxkXSHY/IMG_20201210_060703_2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rdt4f49f)
(https://i.postimg.cc/N0s4cPMx/IMG_20201210_060529_2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9DkTPby4)
Here is the image with the lighting showing the scratch pattern:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vm6kGfxm/IMG_20201204_092804_2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mcB8wcwx)
Happy?
Years ago, I worked with woodworking writer, Pat Warner, on the photography for three of his books. Metal is difficult to photograph well.
Ken
I'm not quite sure what that area in my own picture number 2 shows, it's either a trick of the light or i didn't polish the entire bevel there.
Whatever it is, that part of the image isn't representative for the bevels & apex which were sharpened on a Paper Wheel with 15 micron diamond compound, then refined through 6, 3, and 1 micron diamond compound on other Paper Wheels.
No Tormek stone that i know of comes close to that level of refinement, but of course it isn't often required or necessary.
Using lighting to catch different scratch patterns in pictures is something i do as well, but from your posts it wasn't clear to me that you were doing the same.
No problem, it was my fault as I assumed from the previous posts in the thread that it was obvious that is what I was doing. I often forget that other people aren't thinking the same thing as I am, so I apologize for not explaining what I was doing.
We're all in the same boat, learning new things everyday, :)
Here's an example of how i use daylight coming from the right hand side to compare old and new scratch patterns in edge bevels.
The first owner of this small Sebenza apparently thought it a good idea to use the knife for sharpening practice in his new Wicked Edge.
The outcome made him sell the knife for a measly 150 Euro's to owner number two, who sent it to me with the request to tidy things up a bit and give it a bit of a shiny edge.
Below is what the knife looked like when i received it, still with it's very rough and partly unapexed "edge", and with an edge angle of ~40 degrees inclusive at the straight part of the edge, changing into ~45 degrees inclusive from belly to point.
(https://i.postimg.cc/875Xq5mG/GEDC2576.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/875Xq5mG)(https://i.postimg.cc/tYCH49NS/GEDC2581.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tYCH49NS)
(https://i.postimg.cc/3kcf7Ttv/GEDC2577.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/3kcf7Ttv)(https://i.postimg.cc/0MdL94M1/GEDC2582.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0MdL94M1)
(https://i.postimg.cc/hzFCz0W4/GEDC2578.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hzFCz0W4)(https://i.postimg.cc/Fkrwzx3d/GEDC2583.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Fkrwzx3d)
(https://i.postimg.cc/gLmN4k2f/GEDC2579.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gLmN4k2f)(https://i.postimg.cc/MX5h4hJy/GEDC2584.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MX5h4hJy)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bSgL5cGd/GEDC2580.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bSgL5cGd)(https://i.postimg.cc/6yQDNYBF/GEDC2585.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/6yQDNYBF)
(https://i.postimg.cc/XZ9PgPgB/GEDC2587.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XZ9PgPgB)(https://i.postimg.cc/7fQjP06h/GEDC2586.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/7fQjP06h)
After reprofiling & sharpening on a Paper Wheel with 15 micron diamond compound, then deburring and polishing it a bit with a second Paper Wheel coated with 1.0 micron diamond compound.
The new edge is a bit convex, and measures ~30 degrees inclusive on the straight part of the edge, changing into ~35 degrees inclusive from belly to point.
This to avoid widening the bevels there too much, as this blade is relatively thick behind the edge in that area.
The last picture shows a small facet at the heel which has an entirely different angle, so i could not remove it without making things worse.
Visually it's not perfect yet treetopping sharp, and the owner was happy.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yWLYRjRD/GEDC2593.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yWLYRjRD)(https://i.postimg.cc/B8CG0Zcj/GEDC2599.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/B8CG0Zcj)
(https://i.postimg.cc/zVMztf05/GEDC2594.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zVMztf05)(https://i.postimg.cc/14d1Pj6r/GEDC2600.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/14d1Pj6r)
(https://i.postimg.cc/kBkCNpgg/GEDC2597.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kBkCNpgg)(https://i.postimg.cc/w34gMvKJ/GEDC2596.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/w34gMvKJ)
Nice work. What I am trying to do is get a mirror edge with the SG-200 and the honing wheel. I was told it was possible, and have gotten pretty close myself.
Jason,
I have had the pleasure of working with Tormek knife expert, Stig Reitan. Stig uses your desired SG-200 and leather honing wheel with PA-70 compound technique. He has also worked extensively with the T4. His sharpening skill is impressive. He will tell you that he uses the stone grader a lot. He also uses more grinding pressure and honing compound than most users.
I believe the real source of Stig's mastery of sharpening is the years of dedicated focused practice in learning the craft.
Your goals, like many of us, go well beyond basic sharpness. There is an expression in Spanish, "No se ganó Zamora en una hora" (Zamora, the last Moorish stronghold in Spain, was not conquered in an hour. An English language equivalent would be "Rome wasn't built in a day".) Be patient. Keep working. You will reach your goal.
Keep posting.
Ken
Ken and kwakster, thank you for the help. I will keep working on it.
Ok, I am having better luck with both the sharpening and the polish on the edges. It helps not to have very wide bevels like I was running, and also to have the knife clamp set as close to the center of the blade as possible, to get an even edge bevel. Fresh honing compound also helps with the polish on the edge. I am really enjoying using the Tormek T-4, as you get a decent level of sharpness in a small amount of time.
Quote from: jasonstone20 on February 12, 2021, 02:11:23 PM
Ok, I am having better luck with both the sharpening and the polish on the edges. It helps not to have very wide bevels like I was running, and also to have the knife clamp set as close to the center of the blade as possible, to get an even edge bevel. Fresh honing compound also helps with the polish on the edge. I am really enjoying using the Tormek T-4, as you get a decent level of sharpness in a small amount of time.
Always clamping the knife in the center won't necessarily result in an even bevel (this is probably just working by coincidence). Clamping should be based on the distance from the belly to tip area, for best result.
Oh, ok. Thank you, I will try that out.
For clarification, the knife I was talking about were the center clamping worked was the Spyderco PM2. Were would a good place to put the clamp on that blade?
Imagine a line extending along the bolster and attach the jig so that one edge of it is parallel to the bolster if the bolster was an extended line. That is how I would attach it.
Quote from: jasonstone20 on February 14, 2021, 05:16:39 AM
For clarification, the knife I was talking about were the center clamping worked was the Spyderco PM2. Were would a good place to put the clamp on that blade?
For a specific knife I'm sure that's fine... I thought you were talking about knives in general.