The Tormek works because it's a tight tolerance machine. I know because I first tried a Tormek "copy". That bad experience actually caused me to shy away from Tormek for a couple of years!
I now have a T-7. It's great, but for my sharpening business, it's WAAAAAAY too slow.
Somewhat following Vadim's protocols, I am considering:
1) shaping the bevel/grind off nicks with my Viel S-5, at 30 degrees.
2) continuing on Tormek machine A with a 400 grit stone
3) setting apex on Tormek machine B with a 1000 grit stone
4) deburring on felt wheel on a half-speed buffer
5) de-rooting on Tormek machine C with a rock hard felt wheel
Such a proposed setup is of course faster, as I then don't have to keep changing three wheels. But
will there be significant sharpening BESS score increase if three Tormeks are used?
I am not a professional sharpener but what has the use of multiple machines got to do with an increase in sharpness? No matter how many machines are used, the edge will not be sharper than the final stones grit and length of time ground on that grit. Along with the finishing touches of honing etc.
Watch a master sharpener..... He does not seem to find his Tormek waaaay too slow:
https://youtu.be/8zQDmQ_n7wg
Ken
Quote from: jeffs55 on July 09, 2020, 11:12:45 PM
I am not a professional sharpener but what has the use of multiple machines got to do with an increase in sharpness?
My bad. I meant a possible DECREASE in sharpness, due to using three machines with three different universal support heights, versus using one machine with a set bar height.
Quote from: Ken S on July 10, 2020, 12:57:24 AM
Watch a master sharpener..... He does not seem to find his Tormek waaaay too slow:
https://youtu.be/8zQDmQ_n7wg
Ken
Already watched that. But he's not following the protocol I listed. I'm speaking about my own real-life experience.
Quote from: BeSharp on July 10, 2020, 05:12:38 AM
...
My bad. I meant a possible DECREASE in sharpness, due to using three machines with three different universal support heights, versus using one machine with a set bar height.
If you don't measure the distance to the stone when setting the USB, but instead measure it indirectly e.g. the "Wootz" method, then you are adding all kinds of tolerance sources. There is a good chance then that the sharpening angle on the various machines will deviate from one another.
The result will then not be as expected.
It seems to me that if you use multiple machines with their own attachments and IF you could adjust them to all the same angle, then you would be more productive. Not sharper or less sharp, just able to do the same thing faster. This would be an advantage in a business and a luxury for home use. But even then, it is only advantageous in duplicating not for one offs. If you are going to do a dozen knives for a restaurant then it is a good idea. If you are going to do a dozen knives for a dozen people with different specifications, then it might be less than worthless. Even for the dozen knives for the same restaurant, how many times are you going to do their knives? You can't tie up your machine (s) for that once a year job, can you? You are not likely to ever replicate your settings but who would ever know except you? I would not do it.
Quote from: jeffs55 on July 09, 2020, 11:12:45 PM
I am not a professional sharpener but what has the use of multiple machines got to do with an increase in sharpness? No matter how many machines are used, the edge will not be sharper than the final stones grit and length of time ground on that grit. Along with the finishing touches of honing etc.
Yup...
Quote from: Dutchman on July 10, 2020, 10:13:41 AM
If you don't measure the distance to the stone when setting the USB, but instead measure it indirectly e.g. the "Wootz" method, then you are adding all kinds of tolerance sources. There is a good chance then that the sharpening angle on the various machines will deviate from one another.
The result will then not be as expected.
... and yup. ;)
My .02... if you're trying to speed things up, adding a bunch of steps seems to going in the wrong direction. (And do your customers really care about BESS scores, or is that just a marketing technique?)
I'd use a belt sander to make repairs, and rough in a bevel if needed, then one stone to sharpen, and one step to remove the burr. Like someone recently told me... K.I.S.S.... especially if speed is a concern.
BeSharp,
As I reread your post, I have more questions than answers. You correctly note that Terry Beach does not follow your protocol. Terry's protocol is finely tuned to his business needs. I imagine that he probably works in a farmers market environment, lots of knives to be sharpened in a very short time frame. I doubt any of his customers ever heard of BESS. When they get home and start to use their sharpened knives, they cut better than they ever did, a very practical test.
I have been following Vadim (Wootz) and his work ever since he joined the forum several years ago. His work is truly remarkable, and is continually evolving. He has developed a very different business model. With his meticulous workmanship, he can successfully cater to very high end customers with deep pockets. Speed is not of the essence.
Vadim has also established business relationships with the meat processing plants in Sydney, where he lives. This is also very high end work, where the companies realize the more involved deburring procedures he has pioneered are cost justified because of the increased productivity. Vadim has documented this productivity increase with extensive research.
You have not said anything about your sharpening business, except that you feel the need for speed. If you are working in a farmers market environment, your best source of information is Steve Bottorff (sharpeningmadeeasy.com). Steve combines many years of "in the trenches" sharpening experience with the dedication of an experienced teacher and the trained educated mind of an engineer. Before he retired, Steve made a professional quality DVD made to essentially duplicate his class for younger sharpeners. I consider his Sharpening School DVD essential training for anyone considering a sharpening business.
Steve's protocols fit his business model, as do Terry's and Vadim's. What is your business model? We can answer your questions more intelligently with more information.
Please keep posting.
Ken
BeSharp,
I agree with Dutchman. As far as you are able to set up grinding/honing angle with an accuracy 0.5⁰ or better, you will get similar BESS score also if three Tormeks are used.
Jan
Hello,
Dutchman hit the nail on the head already...
Just a tip how to spare time a little bit - use more SVM jigs (and water trough) and sharpen more knives with one wheel if possible. Then you don't need to change wheels (water) so often.
jvh
Quote from: jvh on July 11, 2020, 11:52:23 PM
Hello,
Dutchman hit the nail on the head already...
Just a tip how to spare time a little bit - use more SVM jigs (and water trough) and sharpen more knives with one wheel if possible. Then you don't need to change wheels (water) so often.
jvh
I agree with the use of more SVM jigs to speed up operations on individual stones/deburring setps. I have four SVM-45s and two SVM-140s but only one small knife jig as I don't see that many small knives. I set up as many as possible at the same settings and run them in batches. Often, I will have a group of knives from friends or now, the very occasional customer where the bevel angles are too indistinct to measure and the users don't know or care what the angle is. In those cases, I re-set the bevels to the same angle for efficiency of grinding in groups.
I have modified three of the SVM-45s according to Knife Grinders for the use of shims to facilitate centering of different thicknesses of blades.
Rick
Quote from: cbwx34 on July 10, 2020, 03:10:29 PM
Quote from: Dutchman on July 10, 2020, 10:13:41 AM
If you don't measure the distance to the stone when setting the USB, but instead measure it indirectly e.g. the "Wootz" method, then you are adding all kinds of tolerance sources. There is a good chance then that the sharpening angle on the various machines will deviate from one another.
The result will then not be as expected.
... and yup. ;)
My .02... if you're trying to speed things up, adding a bunch of steps seems to going in the wrong direction. (And do your customers really care about BESS scores, or is that just a marketing technique?)
I'd use a belt sander to make repairs, and rough in a bevel if needed, then one stone to sharpen, and one step to remove the burr. Like someone recently told me... K.I.S.S.... especially if speed is a concern.
First, I must thank everyone for their help. I've been impressed by how helpful (and civil!) everyone is here, unlike some other internet forums I've participated in!
So, more details:
1) I have just ordered two CBN wheels and a felt buffing wheel from a well-known Australian sharpener. This should mostly eliminate having to adjust the stone diameter. Of course, there are still machine tolerance variations.
2) I have been sharpening commercially for about half a year. I live (rent) in a rather ritzy area in Vancouver (average house price: $2.5 million). I would guesstimate my sharpening as 70% Henckels / Wusthof, 20% Global, and the rest Boker, Benchmade, Opinel, Shun, etc. So good quality steel from customers who have money. Sharpening prices are not a predominant concern (I have raised prices three times in six months with no decrease in business).
3) On a whim, I started issuing BESS score certificates. The customers love them. It generates LOTS of referrals. It has solved a problem I had when I first started, which is going up against established sharpeners. How could I say that my work is better? Actually, is it even better? How could I qualify any claims? So, yes, in my situation, the BESS tester has proven to be a valuable marketing tool.
4) I will be starting at a farmer's market in two weeks. It seems for most farmer's markets, speed is the key. I have a paper wheel setup, which, as I posted on another topic thread, I regularly get 250 BESS, or "good enough". However, that setup is noisier than the Tormek, and no BESS certificates - which, as I've already pointed out, has proven to be a great marketing tool in my area for my situation.
5) Fifth, I'm not interested in just doing a speedy but average job. It's just not the way I approach life, and quite frankly I would rather make less money but do quality work. For those who did not recognize the proposed protocol I listed earlier, it's from Vadim's latest Deburring Book, Appendix II (except I'm using a Viel S5 for the initial grinding, since it's at around 30 degrees anyways).
So, my situation is unique - I'm trying to speed up a very elaborate process - which my customers are willing to pay for - with BESS certificates - in a Farmer's Market environment!
Quote from: jvh on July 11, 2020, 11:52:23 PM
Hello,
Dutchman hit the nail on the head already...
Just a tip how to spare time a little bit - use more SVM jigs (and water trough) and sharpen more knives with one wheel if possible. Then you don't need to change wheels (water) so often.
jvh
Hi jvh, thank you for your comments. Yes, at the moment I have eight knife jigs, and plan on getting some more. The T7 water trough is a pain, I'm wondering if the T8 will help alleviate that pain? Hmm.
Quote from: BeSharp on July 14, 2020, 11:19:43 PM
...snip...
I live (rent) in a rather ritzy area in Vancouver (average house price: $2.5 million). I would guesstimate my sharpening as 70% Henckels / Wusthof, 20% Global, and the rest Boker, Benchmade, Opinel, Shun, etc. So good quality steel from customers who have money. Sharpening prices are not a predominant concern (I have raised prices three times in six months with no decrease in business).
...snip...
BC, Canada or WA, USA? Or somewhere other?
What are you charging?
I lived in Portland, OR (just across the Columbia River from Vancouver, WA for those who may not know) for over 40 yrs. I didn't realize I was getting my knives sharpened on a Tormek by a "mobile sharpener) (or at least a wet grinder system - but in retrospect it looked like a Tormek) long before I started using one. Rates was $5/blade. I now live in an extremely rural area of NE OR now where the economic crosssection is spread, lots of very low income and some much higher. I do a little sharpening for customers and did one short portion of one season at a farmers market - actually two. Lots would not or could not afford $5/blade. Lots could and did and some have come back for repeats.
Nice that the BESS certificates are working in your market. I doubt that would have made much difference here, although I did do a little testing at some of the markets. No one seemed to notice much, but I didn't make much of a deal of it either.
Rick
In our routine sharpening, each knife goes from Tormek T-7 with a coarse wheel to Tormek T-8 with a medium wheel, and another T-8 with a fine wheel, then deburred on slotted paper wheels, then back to another Tormek T-7 for removing the wire edge on a felt wheel, and then back again to a finishing paper wheel - and comes with the sharpness of 50-80 BESS.
But when I want a record sharpness of under 50 BESS, sharper than a disposable shaving razor, for better precision, I grind that knife on a single Tormek, changing wheels from coarse to fine of the same diameter. Still it then goes to paper wheels for deburring, and then to another T-7 with the felt wheel, and the finishing paper wheel.
All grinding and deburring controlled with our software.
Quote from: RickKrung on July 15, 2020, 12:48:17 AM
Quote from: BeSharp on July 14, 2020, 11:19:43 PM
...snip...
I live (rent) in a rather ritzy area in Vancouver (average house price: $2.5 million). I would guesstimate my sharpening as 70% Henckels / Wusthof, 20% Global, and the rest Boker, Benchmade, Opinel, Shun, etc. So good quality steel from customers who have money. Sharpening prices are not a predominant concern (I have raised prices three times in six months with no decrease in business).
...snip...
BC, Canada or WA, USA? Or somewhere other?
What are you charging?
Rick
I'm in Vancouver, B.C., Canada, eh. Charging $1 an inch, $2 an inch for high end steel or serrated.
Quote from: wootz on July 15, 2020, 06:48:17 AM
In our routine sharpening, each knife goes from Tormek T-7 with a coarse wheel to Tormek T-8 with a medium wheel, and another T-8 with a fine wheel, then deburred on slotted paper wheels, then back to another Tormek T-7 for removing the wire edge on a felt wheel, and then back again to a finishing paper wheel - and comes with the sharpness of 50-80 BESS.
But when I want a record sharpness of under 50 BESS, sharper than a disposable shaving razor, for better precision, I grind that knife on a single Tormek, changing wheels of the same diameter. Still it then goes to paper wheels for deburring, and then to another T-7 with the felt wheel, and the finishing paper wheel.
All grinding and deburring controlled with our software.
Thanks Vadim. This is the kind of response I was looking for - from someone who has multiple Tormeks, and has measured the results.
Looks like I'll be ordering two more Tormeks!
Quote from: wootz on July 15, 2020, 06:48:17 AM
In our routine sharpening, each knife goes from Tormek T-7 with a coarse wheel to Tormek T-8 with a medium wheel, and another T-8 with a fine wheel, then deburred on slotted paper wheels, then back to another Tormek T-7 for removing the wire edge on a felt wheel, and then back again to a finishing paper wheel - and comes with the sharpness of 50-80 BESS.
But when I want a record sharpness of under 50 BESS, sharper than a disposable shaving razor, for better precision, I grind that knife on a single Tormek, changing wheels of the same diameter. Still it then goes to paper wheels for deburring, and then to another T-7 with the felt wheel, and the finishing paper wheel.
All grinding and deburring controlled with our software.
This (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=4089.msg30981#msg30981) software? ::)
Seems like if you want to bring up your software... you should address the issues, that's what a forum is for.... ;)
And now I have a followup question... if your software is accurate to 0.1 degree... why do you have to use just a single Tormek "for better precision"? One of your reasons you state you use your updated software...
Quote from: wootz on October 23, 2019, 05:38:38 AM
...
Our software update is not only for the sake of the edge angle accuracy, but for better matching the grinding and honing angles to get a sharper edge.
....
... seems a bit of a contradiction. (I didn't add the bold on this one). ;)
CB, you are correct, I agree with you.
The updated KG software uses the old, approximative Dutchman formula. For input parameters 250 mm, 139 mm and 12⁰ the top USB – stone distance is biased by 1 mm which means that the grinding angle is biased by 0.7⁰ per site.
If we add the strange jumps depending on the thickness behind the edge the bias of the grinding angle increases to some 1⁰. It is definitively not sufficient accuracy for setup of multiple Tormeks for advanced deburring.
Nevertheless when all your wheels have the same diameter you will get consistent results and small BESS score.
Jan
The ultra sharpness we get on knives using our software for Tormek, FVB and paper wheels is in the videos on our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrs9DEOG9tHbxAH50CKINqA/videos (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrs9DEOG9tHbxAH50CKINqA/videos)
Users of our software for Tormek in all corners of the world get exceptional sharpness on their knives, often sharper than shaving razors, see for example:
https://www.australianbladeforums.com/vb4/knife-grinders/39276-insane-sharp-customers.html (https://www.australianbladeforums.com/vb4/knife-grinders/39276-insane-sharp-customers.html)
We've put countless man-hours in testing our software accuracy: http://knifegrinders.com.au/software_testing.htm (http://knifegrinders.com.au/software_testing.htm)
Fine-tuning and testing this software cost me a lot, and last year I decided to make the full computer code proprietary and am not giving details in the public domain, not to feed copycats.
Quote from: wootz on July 16, 2020, 01:52:09 AM
The ultra sharpness we get on knives using our software for Tormek, FVB and paper wheels is in the videos on our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrs9DEOG9tHbxAH50CKINqA/videos (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrs9DEOG9tHbxAH50CKINqA/videos)
Users of our software for Tormek in all corners of the world get exceptional sharpness on their knives, often sharper than shaving razors, see for example:
https://www.australianbladeforums.com/vb4/knife-grinders/39276-insane-sharp-customers.html (https://www.australianbladeforums.com/vb4/knife-grinders/39276-insane-sharp-customers.html)
We've put countless man-hours in testing our software accuracy: http://knifegrinders.com.au/software_testing.htm (http://knifegrinders.com.au/software_testing.htm)
Fine-tuning and testing this software cost me a lot, and last year I decided to make the full computer code proprietary and am not giving details in the public domain, not to feed copycats.
I'm not sure if you read my other post, but your code was dumped into the forum a while back. So, it's no longer a secret.
So, it leaves the questions I asked earlier (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=4089.msg30981#msg30981) worth answering. Even if the code wasn't there... the questions remain.
Users "get exceptional sharpness", but it doesn't really have anything to do with software, as much as just the simple long tested process of creating a burr and removing it. There's some validity to the process... but it's been around for a long time... not really new.
Bummer you spent a lot time and money, 'cause it looks like there's a flaw in the testing. (The bad part of "going it alone" I suppose). :-\
Quote from: wootz on July 16, 2020, 01:52:09 AM
We've put countless man-hours in testing our software accuracy: http://knifegrinders.com.au/software_testing.htm (http://knifegrinders.com.au/software_testing.htm)
Hello,
I don't want to waste too much time on already proven problems, but measured data...
Accuracy of CATRA HobbiGoni is declared ±2°, not ±0,2° as is written in your web, please correct it.
This model seems to be discontinued, specification on Catra web isn't anymore, but it can be found elsewhere (https://www.messen.nl/laser-goniometer-knife-edge-protractor.html). New model Portable Laser Goniometer Mk2 LP (Unfocused) has declared accuracy ±1° (and the price is about 500$).
Sharpening on "rounded" wheel
produces deviations between angle at the edge apex and angle at the edge heel, see
EdgeCalc (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=4181.0) (part of TormekCalc
2) for more information. There are no deviations in your measurements
but they must be there, because it's not flat grind. Eg. difference between apex/heel angle on 250 mm wheel, for 3 mm thick blade and double bevel (symmetrical) grind, 20° per side, is 20°/21,92°. Average deviation apex vs. heel angle is 20,96°.
EdgeCalc (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=4181.0) proves that there is no dependence of edge angle vs. blade thickness. All deviations are caused by "roundness" of the used wheel only (ideal situation with error-free measurement). It means that you get exact angle at apex, but it will vary on other parts of the edge and the highest angle will be on the edge heel. If you try to compensate it, you will get different angle on apex. Again, there's no trace of that in your data.
In view of the above and because approximative formula was confirmed in your software, I cannot take measured data seriously, sorry. It's not test of software accuracy for me, but it can be taken as grinding consistency check for a row of wheels with diameter near 250 mm (250, 260, 256, 251, 247, 10"=254 mm). I don't count Tormek leather wheel, because it's flexible and it fits into the grind surface made on a bigger wheel.
BTW: This knife wasn't very well centered in the jig.
jvh